Learning curve?

LoLth

right, when people ask for a good sci-fi/fantasy/thriller book to have read of, there is a tendancy to suggest not only the most recent one read but also the one you found to be the "height" of the genre.

But, I know that a crime fan reading LotR as a first foray into fantasy would be a bit offputting <potentially>.

So, how about a learning curve?

Starting from the most basic and up to the peak of the genre (in your opinion) list the ten books you'd suggest someone read to get a good grounding.
It's not a top ten, it's a path to enlightenment

my suggestions for fantasy: start to finish:

1. Wizard of Earthsea [series] - basic and consistant, likeable, not challenging but still a serious work of fantasy.
2. The Hobbit [kids book but well worth reading some of the imagery is 1st rate and would probably be lost on a kid]
3. The Belgariad [1st series only - the rest were just copies of the same theme and nowher near as enjoyable]
4. Gemmell [rigante series - close to actual history] - anti-climactic ending warning for gemmell though
5. Gemmell [waylander, drenai series - much more magic based and heroic]
6. Eyes of the Dragon [King]
7. Dragonbone chair series [tad williams - well developed and twisty series with stereotypes ]
8. Book of Lost tales 1&2 [tolkien, good background to LotR]
9. Tales of the Unicorn [tolkien, more background]
10. Lord of the Rings [tolkien - in depth, incredibly detailed - pehaps to an analy retentive degree? - difficult to get through just for enjoyment's sake]

I reckon that if that list is read, you'd be ready for anything. There's exposure to all levels of the genre from "low magic" to "high fantasy".
Horror fans would do well to throw Feist's "Faerie tale" in there maybe instead of Eyes of the Dragon.

Draco

Originally posted by LoLth
3. The Belgariad [1st series only - the rest were just copies of the same theme and nowher near as enjoyable]

I'd go with the Elium rather than this - his style had matured and it's a good lead into Gemmell - you're introduced to an experienced campaginer rather than a peasant boy thrust into greatness.

LoLth

haven't read the elium or whatever he's decided to change it's name to.

Same books. Same story. Different characters...almost.

Is the Elium a different series altogether?

Manach

Elium was a series I did not like at all. It seemed Eddings was just writing on auto-pilot.

At the 3 level, The First series of Shanara by Terry Brooks.
About Level 7, the Darwath Trilogy by Barbara Hambly.

All the rest, spot on.

ConUladh

Not trying to be picky but since 2 of ye said it and to avoid confusion, it's Elenium not Elium, unless I'm going mad

Looking back I'd say it was more mature but I went off all his books years ago anyway

Belgariad would have been one of the first fantasy series I read, after Dragonlance Chronicles and The Hobbit (prob forgetting a couple)

bonkey

Originally posted by LoLth
my suggestions for fantasy: start to finish:

2. The Hobbit [kids book but well worth reading some of the imagery is 1st rate and would probably be lost on a kid]
8. Book of Lost tales 1&2 [tolkien, good background to LotR]
9. Tales of the Unicorn [tolkien, more background]
10. Lord of the Rings [tolkien - in depth, incredibly detailed - pehaps to an analy retentive degree? - difficult to get through just for enjoyment's sake]

I dont think you can really include 4 "works" from one author, no matter how influential, and consider it to be a good background for the entire genre.

If you strip it down, you have 4 x Tolkien, 2 x Gemmell, 4 x others.
So, in effect, you are basically saying that these 6 authors cover the spectrum of fantasy styles?

Or, more correctly, that 60% of your learning curve can be covered by 2 authors.

Basically, I would shorten your list to not include multiple works from a single author unless they differ significantly in style, world, and story. Alternately, I would leave it at 10 works, and find replacements for what I would consider your duplicates.

Nice idea though....I'll go away and see what I can come up with.

jc

Draco

Originally posted by LoLth
Is the Elium a different series altogether?

Different series, main character completley different (a 40 year old knight), the rest have similar character traits, similarish plot (find the magical gem to defeat the bad guy).

Draco

Originally posted by ConUladh
Not trying to be picky but since 2 of ye said it and to avoid confusion, it's Elenium not Elium, unless I'm going mad

Yer probably right - I always did get the spelling of it wrong.

Yo Mamma

Here it goes for a good grounding in Fantasy !

1: The Hobbit
2: Dragonlance series
3: Dragonlance Legends (the Twins)
4: IcewindDale Trilogy(Forgotten Realms)
5: The Avatar Trilogy(Forgotten Realms)
6: Ravenloft books
7: Song of Ice & Fire
8: The Lord of The Rings
9: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever
10: The Pendragon cycle

This is probably not the best way to do it but there were just too many great books to fit them in in any respectable order!

I had to leave out many greats but I think that if u read some of these books in that order then u could easily hold your own in the Genre!

LoLth

I see the point about the tolkien repetition. Thing is, I would never recommend that someone read LotR without reading the others first (ok, unicorn could be skipped) and seeing as most people who take up reading fantasy are trying to get to this "classic" I think the grounding is worth it. By background, I didn't mean to the genre, I meant to LotR.. and lumping all of them into one slot would be a bit cheeky

but, point taken and on hindsight:

take out number 7 and replace with [feist - Riftwar trilogy]
- yes I know Feist is already there, but Faerie tale is a horror/fantasy, Riftwar is high fantasy. Larger than life characters, Gods, earth shattering magic, princesses, the whole 9 yards. A much different aspect of fantasy altogether and worht including as feist's style changes subtly between the two and show how important word choice and atmosphere creation are in building a pure fantasy as opposed to quasi-reality based world.. so, I have to be right 'cos I used a big and impressive word )

however, the hobbit is vastly different in scope, scale and seriousness from LotR and so deserves a seperate mention.

Gemmell: has written a huge collection of works, some of which are good. I think the Drenai and Rigante series are far enough away from each other to warrant two seperate mentions.
Drenai: uber heroic, magic (the thirty).
Rigante: more of a braveheart, down to earth. magic is there but kept low key.

Shows that not all fantasy is wizards charging about the place.

I don't think that 6 or 7 or even 10 authors can cover the entire span of fantasy fiction but I do think that a selection can give a good overview of the differences in sub-genres.
Conan series, and Gor books are left to be used as in-betweens....

To include the "complete b0llix" side of the genre.. only one author could represent it fully... Rose Estes and her Mika Trilogy. never has so much toilet paper been use (repeatedly) and stuck between two covers!

now:
YM, quite a lot of D&D fiction there. I would consider them all to be of the same genre.. the high magic fantasy.. certainly the titles you've listed. Dragonlance are probably the best of those (the first series, after that it sort of became a joke.. like portals to the moon!). I don't think I would inflict a (best left)Forgotten Realms series on the poor newbie though. You evil evil man

8. LotR
9. chronicle of Tom Covenant.

so, first you bore them to tears and when they are sufficiently exhausted you make them commit suicide by depressing them with good ol' leper boy ...

10. Pendragon cycle: who wrote that one then? Can't remember if I've read it or not...

Yo Mamma

Well I was kinda looking at it through the viewpoint of hard to read! Say, imo, that TLoTR is easier to read than Thomas covenant and that is again easier to read than The PenDragon Cycle!

But in fairness I see your point ! The poor noobs would have a preety hard time of it if they gave that eyefull a go lol

As to the Pendragon Cycle :
This story begins with the tragedy of Atlantis and the arrival in Britain of King Avallach and the heroic figure of Prince Taliesin. In the twilight of Rome's power, a tale is told of a love that spawns the miracle of Merlin and Arthur, and a destiny that is more than a kingdom.

All four books can be found here !!

Brilliant read

Manach

The Pendragon Cycle, this is by Stephen Lawhead. I didn't think too highly of it.

Thomas covenant I'd recommend but very heavy reading.

Re: The Elenium, Mea Cupla

bonkey

To build a short-list of books (or works) which gives the reader an incremental "introduction" to fantasy is really tough. I have had to omit authors I like in preference to others who I like slightly less, in order to give a good coverage (IMHO) of the spectrum of fantasy writing.

I have also avoided repeating any author, despite the inevitable cries that I cant seriously omit something like The Hobbit as light reading, and Unfinished Tales as heavy reading. If you like this list, you have all the works by these 10 authors too look forward to, and then all the works of the "sidenote" authors. If that doesnt keep you going, nothing will

What I have done is broken it into three stages, arbitrarily named beginner, intermediary, and expert.

The aim is to present a set of books which are carying in style and scope, first three easy-reading, light introductions. These are arranged in what I see as "ascending order".

This will be followed by 3 "intermediary" writings - series which are "solid" fantasy, in a variety of styles, but which are still not too challenging to read, other then perhaps for their size.
Finally, are the four series I feel are "tough" reading - challenging in style, but rewarding if you can get thru them.

At the end of the day, remember that this is not a complete list of good authors....just an attempt to cover styles and difficulties. I could remove almost any entry and find another equivalent. For this reason, I have tended to stick with the more well-known authors.

Beginner

1 The Narnia Chronicles - CS.Lweis
2. DragonLance Chronicles - Weiss & Hickman
3. Belgariad - D.Eddings

I was tempted to put H.Potter in here, as it is an excellent intro to fantasy for the younger reader, and a delightful read for anyone (IMHO) but stopped shy because I needed only 3 books, and I prefer the other 3 listed.

If you like, add H.Potter in at 0.

Similar stuff to add in would be the Shanara series (Terry Brooks), most of everything else Eddings has written, U. Le Guin and more, but I can think of it so far.

Intermediary

4. RiftWar Saga - R.Feist
5. The Farseer Trilogy - R.Hobb
6. Discworld Series - T.Pratchett

OK, Nothin surprising here. this is the typical large-selling fantasy. You can get easier and tougher reads, but these are typical, classic "core" fantasy.

I've balanced Hobb (not a very heroic hero, very little magic) with Feist (Kings, pwerful mages, world-rending magic).

Other authors would be Steven Erikson, Terry Goodkind, Anne McCafferey, David Gemmell, Jany Wurts etc.

Pratchett I've included purely because sometimes, comic-fantasy is really good, but obviously including a massive collection like Discworld is a bit cheeky.

Expert

7. The Newford Chronicles - C.deLint
8. Saga Of The Exiles - J.May
9. Lord Of The Rings - JRR Tolkien
10. The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever - S.Donaldson

These last four are the "tough" reading, IMHO

deLint writes a style very heavily influenced by old native-American and other similar mythos, but set in a fictional town of Newford. Not actually a series, but rather a set of semi-connected books which are set in this town. If you want just one, try "Somewhere to be Flying". Very non-typical fantasy, but very good. Some of it drifts towards horror-fantasy as well, which is good, cause I couldnt fit any of that in elsewhere!
May is a great example of the sci-fi / fantasy mix, and that genre should appear in here IMHO.

LOTR - the classic fantasy novel, but perhaps written in an overly-descriptive and slow-paced style. Its dark, but its descriptive style makes this feel like drudgery for some. For others, the descriptions make the book. A must read, but not for the faint of heart.

The Chronicles... is a great book, but the title character is an anti-hero. There is very little to like about T.C. as a character, which is why most people dont like the books, IMHO. I think its a great story, but notable mostly because you so often hate the hero and really wish he would do something instead of causing all this grief by his inaction! Possibly the toughest to get through on that count, but if yove done LOTR, you should be OK I think I was about 14 when I read them first, and I loved them then.

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by LoLth
I see the point about the tolkien repetition. Thing is, I would never recommend that someone read LotR without reading the others first (ok, unicorn could be skipped) and seeing as most people who take up reading fantasy are trying to get to this "classic" I think the grounding is worth it.

I would tend to agree re: The Hobbit - it is an almost-necessary precursor to LOTR, but at the end of the day, you can always put that in as a sidenote (being a bit cheeky!) rather than include it on the list.

However, I could not agree on Lost Tales being a necessary pre-cursor, especially since it was printed 30+ years after LOTR, and was completed by Christopher Tolkien. I would actually say Lost Tales is harder to read, and (for me) quite boring in places. If you go mad over LOTR, then read these, but dont read them first.

As with everything else to do with personal taste, YMMV

jc

Shinji

I'm quite confused as to why you think that any reader would need a gentle intro to Lord of the Rings.

LotR provided a massive level of inspiration for many of the other works you have listed. To read them before reading LotR would lessen the impact of LotR greatly.

LotR is not a difficult book, and if you can't comprehend or follow it, then it's not due to under-exposure to the fantasy genre. It's a fantastically written work, easy to follow despite its complexity, and doesn't require any foreknowledge of the world its set in or the broader fantasy genre.

A great many people have read LotR without ever reading any other fantasy work; or in cases like my own, have greatly enjoyed LotR while considering much of the rest of the fantasy genre to be lightweight, badly written rubbish.

Suggesting that people should read the Wizard of Earthsea before reading LotR is like saying you have to have seen every episode of Allo Allo Allo before watching Saving Private Ryan.

nesf

Hmm, I think the problem arises in the type of reader. I'm going to generalise in a terrible way between readers who a) like it all spelt out for them, lots of description/complex talks on magic systems/complex lineages etc. IOW high fantasy for the most part or b) those who like to be able to slide easily into a novel and pop back to it every so often, only necessary description, costume drama storylines, i.e. present day values and personalitites etc.


It's a bad way to do things, but personally I started with LOTR at the tender age of 8, it started a love of fantasy fiction that has lasted over 12 years. I loved the description and depth that the world and characters had, as I grew older and started writing myself I started to prefer Feist, Martin, Modesitt whose style is more akin to standard fiction. Personally I think it depends totally on the age of the person. At a younger age, with a high reading level, you are better off with slower/less complex but more descriptive books, i.e. LOTR or the Hobbit. Yes I don't consider the plot of LOTR complex, sue me For a mature reader, advise on a book closer to their own developed tastes. E.g. George R. R. Martin for a crime enthuasiast. Feist for a normal fiction reader. Tolkien for a history buff/ historic fiction fan. You can't just categorise them without taking the person's present literary interests into account. But for the most part, complex fantasys based in very original worlds are a no-no for new readers. Unless he/she happens to be a poet.....

Illkillya

I agree with shinji. take a book that would be on a more introductory shelf the way this thread is going, the Sword of Shanara by terry brooks. like many fantasy books, this takes a huge part of its storyline and characters from LOTR. Just about everything in this book is mirrored in LOTR, but its so much more 2-dimensional that it doesn't deserve to be read first, since it could lessen the impact (i gave my bro Sword of shanara to read b4 LOTR, and have regretted it ever since )

i like the idea of the thread, but i would not recommend ppl to read the books in the order of the thread. the list is more a measure of depth and complexity than the order the books should be read in.. It would be like telling someone that they had to read The Hardy Boys before they start on Agatha Christie...
i think the Hobbit is a sufficient introduction to the LOTR, explain to the person that this was a kids book, and LOTR is not, and then they won't be won't be worried about the style. I dont' think any more knowledge of the history of Middle Earth is necessary in reading the LOTR... since most of the history wasn't even known to Tolkien himself at the time of writing the series, enough of the history is given in LOTR itself, and anybody who is really interested should then read the Silmarilion and History of Middle earth books.

I haven't read all of the books on the thread, but i'm familiar with most of them, so heres my list (omitting books that are "strictly" for kids):
1. CS Lewis - Chronicles of Narnia

2. Tolkien - The Hobbit

3. Dragonlance Chronicles - real raw fantasy - easy to get into and you know all the characters as soon as they're introduced

4. Eddings - The Belgariad/The Elium... i dunno, all David Eddings books seemed the same to me

5. Terry Brooks - Shanara books

6. Feist - Riftwar Saga (the other feist sagas that i have read are on a similar level)

7. Williams - Dragonbone Chair series (very similar to Feist.. and I agree totally with you on this one lolth - a great series because of the developed world, but the characters have all been seen before dozens of times, and it is full of stereotypes. It has a much broader scope than Feist)

8. Stephen R. Donaldson - Thomas Covenant books - these books have a different kind of complexity to Dragonbone Chair and stuff... a bit more like Gullivers Travels, parallels to real life and all that stuff that i'm not looking for in a fantasy book usually Aside from all that, there is a well developed world here also, with the ur-viles and giants and Illuminitai or whatever they're called that gave them real depth on a more comprehensive level.

9. LOTR - I agree with your comment LoLth.. this is like a textbook... its got everything, and it doesn't fail where the likes of Terry Brooks do, because Tolkien could write

10. The Silmarillion & the history of middle earth books