ODTR bites back

Mountjoy Mugger

I'e already mentiond this in another thread (ODTR's site); however for those of you who may have missed it, there' an interesting response here: http://www.odtr.ie/docs/odtr0175.doc where Ms Doyle seems to be coming form a couple of different angles. The main one seems to be the "margin squeeze" which she believes Eircom are using (illegally?)

Maybe someone "in the know" could enlighten me as regard her penultimate paragraph quoted below:

"The Director wishes to inform the market that some aspects of eircom’s wholesale bitstream product may be available under a different product name. Pursuant to the Voice Telephony and Universal Service Regulations, 1999, OLOs are not required to pay for facilities that are not necessary for the service requested. The Local Loop Unbundling (LLU) Line Share product delivers a line share to a co-location space as is required for bitstream and is costed on this basis. This office has fixed an interim price for line-sharing under ODTR LLU Decision notice D8/01. The ODTR believes that no additional cost would be incurred in delivering this to the eircom rather than to the OLO co-location space."

hmmm

That link is throwing up a file not found error - could you take a look at it, or perhaps mirror the document?

Thanks

Mountjoy Mugger

Very odd, Hmmm..

URL works fine for me. You can get it from going to http://www.odtr.ie (it's the second document on the right hand side) I think Dahamsta has it pasted in his most recent post.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by hmmm
That link is throwing up a file not found error - could you take a look at it, or perhaps mirror the document?Thanks

Are you trying to access it from an Eircom ISP?

Mountjoy Mugger

Originally posted by SkepticOne

Are you trying to access it from an Eircom ISP?

Very good. I take it the link worked fine for you, Oh Skeptic One?

EDIT: Come to think of it, I'm amazed that you can access here through Eircom.net...

hmmm

umm I'm getting a blank odtr main page and a 404 on that doc - must have a proxy problem somewhere.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Mountjoy Mugger
Very good. I take it the link worked fine for you, Oh Skeptic One?

No. I'm getting a DNS error on odtr.ie.

[EDIT: No. Not a DNS error. It is simply not responding.

PING www.odtr.ie (193.203.155.157): 56 data bytes
--- www.odtr.ie ping statistics ---
16 packets transmitted, 0 packets received, 100% packet loss

/EDIT]

Mountjoy Mugger

Strange - what ISP you using - try http://www.odtr.ie - http://odtr.ie (without www will NOT work)

EDIT : Using NTL here at work (piped) tried using a different DNS?

Mountjoy Mugger

If nobody objects, I'll post the entire doc here?:


Wholesale Bitstream ADSL and Line Sharing Costs


Document No: ODTR 01/75
Date: 26 September 2001



Wholesale Bitstream ADSL and Line Sharing Costs.

eircom has recently announced its intention to offer a new product, “bitstream ADSL.” This uses ADSL (asynchronous digital subscriber line) technology to provide high-speed Internet access. Where eircom provides a retail product, it is also required to make the same product available on a wholesale basis to other telecommunications operators.

The Director welcomes any new product which increases the choice available to Irish users. However, she has a duty to ensure that the pricing structure of the new product complies with certain regulatory rules: the wholesale product must be made available on cost-oriented and non-discriminatory terms so that other operators are not disadvantaged compared to eircom’s retail arm. In addition, the Director has a duty not to approve a price structure which might breach competition law. In particular, she may not approve a “margin squeeze” (by which the retail prices charged by a dominant undertaking are so close to the wholesale prices offered to competitors that even a reasonably efficient competitor cannot enter the market).

Following a direction to eircom on September 13th, further discussions and information have clarified the position, but the concerns of the Director regarding cost orientation and margin squeeze remain. The ODTR today directed eircom to submit a revised comprehensive and compliant cost proposal for the wholesale bitstream product utilising factors for the weighted average cost of capital and asset lives as determined by the ODTR. eircom have further been directed to eliminate any margin squeeze.

The Director wishes to inform the market that some aspects of eircom’s wholesale bitstream product may be available under a different product name. Pursuant to the Voice Telephony and Universal Service Regulations, 1999, OLOs are not required to pay for facilities that are not necessary for the service requested. The Local Loop Unbundling (LLU) Line Share product delivers a line share to a co-location space as is required for bitstream and is costed on this basis. This office has fixed an interim price for line-sharing under ODTR LLU Decision notice D8/01. The ODTR believes that no additional cost would be incurred in delivering this to the eircom rather than to the OLO co-location space.

eircom can launch its retail offering 21 days after it has satisfied the Director that its wholesale offering is compliant with its obligations regarding cost orientation, non-discrimination and competition. The Director regrets that the benefits to consumers and business users arising from bitstream will be delayed until eircom complies with its obligations but believes that this action is necessary to prevent a price structure which would stifle competition.

Kix

No objection from me, post away. I get a blank page from http://www.odtr.ie and a 404 on the document link. Yes, I am on Eircom.

K

[Edit] This post looks dumb now because you posted it as I was replying. [/edit]

vinnyfitz

Thanks MM

Likewise I am getting a blank screen - just like this morning
The ODTR told me at lunchtime they were relaunching the site on a new server but it has gone again.

Without access can't check out the Regulator's Decision 8 of 2001 does anyone have a copy?

Kix

Originally posted by Mountjoy Mugger
Maybe someone "in the know" could enlighten me as regard her penultimate paragraph quoted below:

As far as I understand it she's saying:

"A significant part of the cost of a wholesale DSL product is the cost of providing co-location to the operator who's buying the service. This is equivalent to LLU and we've already said how much that should cost."

I notice the doc has several typos, did you type it in by hand or is that the state that you found it in? It might not be a final draft.

K

SkepticOne

Originally posted by The ODTR
Following a direction to eircom on September 13th, further discussions and information have clarified the position, but the concerns of the Director regarding cost orientation and margin squeeze remain. The ODTR today directed eircom to submit a revised comprehensive and compliant cost proposal for the wholesale bitstream product utilising factors for the weighted average cost of capital and asset lives as determined by the ODTR. eircom have further been directed to eliminate any margin squeeze.

Unfortunately, eliminating the margin sqeeze may result in Eircom increasing their retail rate if they get away with the wholesale price.

The Director wishes to inform the market that some aspects of eircom?s wholesale bitstream product may be available under a different product name. Pursuant to the Voice Telephony and Universal Service Regulations, 1999, OLOs are not required to pay for facilities that are not necessary for the service requested. The Local Loop Unbundling (LLU) Line Share product delivers a line share to a co-location space as is required for bitstream and is costed on this basis. This office has fixed an interim price for line-sharing under ODTR LLU Decision notice D8/01. The ODTR believes that no additional cost would be incurred in delivering this to the eircom rather than to the OLO co-location space.

The ODTR appears to be saying that OLOs should consider taking up line sharing under LLU rather than wait for bitstream.

hmmm

Thanks for that MM

So, eh, ODTR, Eircom still haven't given adequate justification - why are they not being penalised ?. Why is there no time limit by which Eircom have to reply? This looks very disappointing to me.

dahamsta

The main one seems to be the "margin squeeze" which she believes Eircom are using (illegally?)

I don't think the ODTR would use the word "illegal" unless pushed, and as yet they're actually not doing anything illegal, since the Director has in effect barred them from releasing ADSL for three weeks minimum.

Maybe someone "in the know" could enlighten me as regard her penultimate paragraph quoted below:

Ok, I'm not all that much "in the know", but I'll do my best to define it as I understand it. In my view, she's saying that legally the OLO's don't have to take, and so pay for, services that aren't required as part of this bitstream service. Or in other words, they can take just a line as part of the Local Loop Unbundling product, and use their own equipment in the exchanges. I think she's pointing out that there's an alternative available, and I believe she's trying to encourage OLO's to go down this road.

To be honest, I don't see how she can do this, when LLU is being challenged in the courts, but I would guess that if she had pending requests in the ODTR for unbundled loops - the more the merrier - she would be able to bring pressure to bear on the courts to accelerate the process.

That's layman now, I'm just guessing, same as everything else above. How about it ODTR, we know you're listening? Am I right or wrong?

adam

dahamsta

Unfortunately, eliminating the margin sqeeze may result in Eircom increasing their retail rate if they get away with the wholesale price.

It does look dodgy alright, but I don't think that will happen. For a start, the ODTR ultimately doesn't give a damn about Eircom's retail price, because it's not her problem per se. Her problem is making sure that the wholesale product is cost-oriented, and so just and fair. It's only if an OLO goes into competition against Eircom and there's obvious price-fixing going on that she can interject on retail pricing. The ODTR isn't stupid either, and they seem to be noticing that consumers and small businesses are more inclined to get behind her now. I don't think that given that, she could honestly and in good faith accept the current wholesale pricing. There'd be an uprising.

The ODTR appears to be saying that OLOs should consider taking up line sharing under LLU rather than wait for bitstream.

Heh, well done SkepticOne, you summed up in one sentence what took me three paragraphs to explain. (I like to detail it for the newbies, ok?

adam

SkepticOne

In addition, the Director has a duty not to approve a price structure which might breach competition law. In particular, she may not approve a ?margin squeeze? (by which the retail prices charged by a dominant undertaking are so close to the wholesale prices offered to competitors that even a reasonably efficient competitor cannot enter the market).

Again, I don't think "margin squeeze" is the issue. Eircom could have a wholesale price of £800 per month and a retail price of £20,000 which would allow for plenty of margin and allow a competitor in to offer basic ADSL for, say, £900 per month and undercut Eircom.

A high wholesale price on its own is enough to stifle competition.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by dahamsta
It does look dodgy alright, but I don't think that will happen. For a start, the ODTR ultimately doesn't give a damn about Eircom's retail price, because it's not her problem per se.
adam

Only insofar as given a particular wholesale price, the retail price might be too low. If she can't get the wholesale price down, then under competition rules she has to get the retail price up. She is quite clearly saying that the margin is too small.

dahamsta

Only insofar as given a particular wholesale price, the retail price might be too low. If she can't get the wholesale price down, then under competition rules she has to get the retail price up. She is quite clearly saying that the margin is too small.

She is, and that's why initially I didn't like the tone of it. But she has publicly stated several times that the wholesale price for the bitstream DSL product is not cost-oriented, and so not acceptable, and that pretty much says straight up and down the line that it needs to be amended. Also, it should be pointed out that the Regulator hasn't a hope in hell of pushing the retail price up. For one, I'm not sure she has the power to, and for two, as I said, there'd be an uprising.

Course, I could be wrong, I have been in the past.

adam

Mountjoy Mugger

Originally posted by Kix

I notice the doc has several typos, did you type it in by hand or is that the state that you found it in? It might not be a final draft.
K

It's a simple copy and paste jobbie. Hmm - it's still on the website, at home, using IOL. The only typo I can see is that she hasn't honoured eircom with a capital €

Mountjoy Mugger

Originally posted by vinnyfitz

Without access can't check out the Regulator's Decision 8 of 2001 does anyone have a copy?

Are you still looking for this? I presume it's the one entitled

Decision on eircom’s introduction of a transit charge for freefone traffic from mobile networks to OLO networks ?

As I can't find your mail addy, I can mail it to you if you wish. Get me at owen.sweeney@iol.ie

Cheers


EDIT: Thanks for the clarification guys - now just to reread it half a dozen times, I'll probably get the gist of it

ando

my father has just told me that he heard on the radio that I-Stream has been delayed for 2 weeks .... ??

Mountjoy Mugger

A minimum of two weeks. That's what we've been, in part, discussing on this thread. I doubt very much if Eircom will satisfy the ODTR in a couple of days.

IMO, we're looking at Jan 2002 at the earliest before this sad, sorry, mess is sorted out in any manner.

alastair

Originally posted by Mountjoy Mugger


It's a simple copy and paste jobbie. Hmm - it's still on the website, at home, using IOL. The only typo I can see is that she hasn't honoured eircom with a capital €

Actually the correct written form for eircom is eircom with a lowercase e.
It's been that way since they rolled out the new corporate ID. lowercase is 'friendly' and 'partner orientated' and all those other touchy feely delusions of the nineties. Umm, it's also a vague reference to the unicase nature of the half uncial letterform (not that anyone cares). And orange is soo 1999.

dahamsta

Actually the correct written form for eircom is eircom with a lowercase e. It's been that way since they rolled out the new corporate ID. lowercase is 'friendly' and 'partner orientated' and all those other touchy feely delusions of the nineties. Umm, it's also a vague reference to the unicase nature of the half uncial letterform (not that anyone cares). And orange is soo 1999.

That's why I always spell it with an uppercase 'E'. Eircom. Eircom Eircom Eircom. It's also the reason why, on the corkcityfc.com site we used to do and the Foot.ie site we do now, I never refer to the Eircom League (<- See!), it's always the National League. It's bitchy, but it's the small things that give you most pleasure, right? Or at least that's what my girlfriend used to say.

adam