When is RTE TV going to be FTA in GB?

stuartfanning

Now that, following the BBC channels, the ITV channels are FTA in the ROI - when are the RTE TV channels going to be made FTA in England, Scotland and Wales. What excuse could they have not to?

Mossy Monk

contract with Sky being a main problem. but how about we manage to get it for free here in the RoI first?

bk

stuartfanning wrote:

Now that, following the BBC channels, the ITV channels are FTA in the ROI - when are the RTE TV channels going to be made FTA in England, Scotland and Wales. What excuse could they have not to?

The bigger question is why aren't they already FTA in Ireland, it isn't right that we should have to pay twice for RTE, once with license fee and once again with Sky. At least in the UK they had FTV cards.

If it goes FTA in Ireland like it should then you will also get it in the UK. I believe RTE's contract with Sky for encryption runs until 2008 like the C4 contract. So we will have to wait until at least then.

There is no excuse for RTE being encrypted, as has been proven by BBC and ITV. EU law specifically says that national broadcasters need not worry about spill over into neighbouring countries with regards to TV show licensing rights.

The other argument was that by being encrypted, RTE gets on the Sky EPG and a good channel number. However this could easily be legislated for by the government (like the UK gov did for the BBC) and even if it wasn't Sky would be mad to pull RTE from the Sky EPG as Sky would become completely worthless in Ireland, could you imagine no RTE, BBC or ITV in the Sky EPG, everyone would just go FTA.

lensman

bk wrote:

it isn't right that we should have to pay twice for RTE, once with license fee and once again with Sky. At least in the UK they had FTV cards.

the powers that be will tell you that the licence fee is for the "television receiver" not the channels received by it RTE do get a slice of this
licence fee, but hey this is Ireland,...we make the rules up as we go along:D

watty

At least 10% is for independent productions now?

Not even FTV RTE here. You need variety pack for RTE/TV3/TG4. Sky, Chorus, NTL not RTE set price of digital access and WS anamorphic access to Irish viewers.

Lennoxschips

I think the reason Sky have RTE is in the variety pack is to make the most out of the grey market European Irish pub scene.

mickd

It is my understanding that the rates charged for buying in shows depends on the size of your audience. If RTE were to increase the potential size of its audience by brodcasting in the clear like ITV/BBC then programmes would be more expensive so it makes sense to stay encrypted. One station the could go FTA would be TG4 as most of its output is through Irish and it would draw a large audience abroad.

watty

Various Central Europe channels are marked encrypted. In fact some of the time they are clear. RTE could easily do same for news (in fact JSTV is clear for English news and most time encrypted).

To RTE, Satellite is just a wireless "in the sky" version of Cable, sort of like MMDS but better. Their opinion to me in several emails is that those interested in Multichannel TV are prepared to pay and the Sky carriage is only to facilitate the Pay TV Multichannel subscribers.

They regarded a Satellite system without subscription as almost mythical.

I get 1450 FTA TV and 1200 FTA radio on less than 300 Euro of hardware (once off price). Lidl sells 90 euro or so complete systems a non-motorised DIY FTA system is under 200 Euro, EVEN from an Irish supplier. Install for the nervous maybe 150?

RTE have their own version of reality.

bk

mickd wrote:

It is my understanding that the rates charged for buying in shows depends on the size of your audience. If RTE were to increase the potential size of its audience by brodcasting in the clear like ITV/BBC then programmes would be more expensive so it makes sense to stay encrypted. One station the could go FTA would be TG4 as most of its output is through Irish and it would draw a large audience abroad.

As I said above, EU directives specifically protects broadcasters against this problem. A broadcaster only needs to get the rights to broadcast the shows to it's designated region, if there is spill over into a neighbouring region (the UK in the case of RTE), it is not the fault of the broadcaster and the broadcaster doesn't need to pay anything extra for rights, etc.

This is exactly why the BBC and ITV have gone FTA, they don't necessarily have the rights to transmit shows to Ireland (difinitely not for Champions League Soccer on ITV) however they don't have to worry about it due to the EU directive.

mickd

If thats the case well what the **** r they waiting 4

Mossy Monk

in case it has slipped your attention, RTÉ are in a contract until 2008

lawhec

bk wrote:

As I said above, EU directives specifically protects broadcasters against this problem. A broadcaster only needs to get the rights to broadcast the shows to it's designated region, if there is spill over into a neighbouring region (the UK in the case of RTE), it is not the fault of the broadcaster and the broadcaster doesn't need to pay anything extra for rights, etc.

This is exactly why the BBC and ITV have gone FTA, they don't necessarily have the rights to transmit shows to Ireland (difinitely not for Champions League Soccer on ITV) however they don't have to worry about it due to the EU directive.

If that is the case, then how come the likes of the ORF in Austria and RAI in Italy, amongst others, still have to encrypt or part encrypt their broadcasts?

Unfortunately nothing is as clear cut as it seems.

It could be possible for RTÉ to dual encrypt with another encryption e.g. Viaccess alongside Videoguard. RTÉ could then run a Free-to-view scheme for those with satellite receivers with CA or CI slots/interfaces (Sky dodgyboxes don't fall into this category!) with the card covering a one-off purchase to cover reasonable costs. However while this would be enlightning, I don't think it would happen.

bk

Northern Correspondent wrote:

If that is the case, then how come the likes of the ORF in Austria and RAI in Italy, amongst others, still have to encrypt or part encrypt their broadcasts?

IANAL:

"Article 20a European Broadcasts Transmitted by Satellite

(1) If a satellite broadcast is transmitted in the territory of a Member State of the European Union or of a Contracting State of the Convention Concerning the European Economic Area, it shall be deemed to have been transmitted solely in that Member State or Contracting State.

http://www.wipo.int/clea/docs_new/en/de/de071en.html

It is pretty clear from this. Of course it often takes many years before such Directives make their way into national legislation, but this is basically the directive that BBC and ITV are using to go FTA.

Interestingly RTE is already thinking this way, RTE recently wrote a report on the future of digital broadcasting in Ireland and it included the following:

For Public Service Broadcasting to survive in the current competitive environment, a digital free-to-air or free-to-the-consumer broadcasting model is required for Ireland. This need could be met through a combined platform approach, which could include the establishment of digital terrestrial television and radio services as well as a free-to-the-consumer satellite option, and broadband and mobile solutions, to allow for a blend of public service and commercial broadcasting.

http://www.rte.ie/about/rtedigital_english.pdf

DMC

Remember, remember folks, when RTÉ actually launched on Sky...

Sky paid for it; EPG placement, encryption etc. All RTÉ had to do was build an uplink. RTÉ got a good deal, as did Sky. It was mutually beneficial.

Plus, don't forget, that if you don't receive RTÉ via an aerial, you pay for it, no matter what digital platform, you have to pay to watch RTÉ, TV3 and TG4 digitally. In that respect, RTÉ are not themselves supporting one firm over another.

It is not a forgone conclusion that RTÉ will ever go FTA.

Ulsterman 1690

The cost of leasing a transponder on Astra 2D is pretty minimal People tend to confuse "being on Sky" with "being on satellite" RTE could easily bypass $ky hre a transponder on Astra 2 and as long as they used the 22000 or 27500 standard symbol rates anyone with a Sky box would still be able to view

bk

DMC wrote:

It is not a forgone conclusion that RTÉ will ever go FTA.

Right, however with BBC and ITV now gone FTA and C4 almost guaranteed to follow by 2008, it is likely many people will use Freesat in Ireland, when they do they will rightfully ask why isn't RTE also FTA. RTE will likely come under increasing pressure to also go Freesat.

I would be very surprised if RTE doesn't go Freesat after 2008. Also if you look at my last post, you will see that RTE themselves are already thinking about this. They say that 95% of the country can be covered by DTT without major expense or new sites, however the remaining 5% will be very expensive to cover, they seem to be suggesting to use Freesat to cover the final 5%

bungeecork

Northern Correspondent wrote:

RTÉ could then run a Free-to-view scheme for those with satellite receivers with CA or CI slots/interfaces (Sky dodgyboxes don't fall into this category!) with the card covering a one-off purchase to cover reasonable costs.

Help! I've been hiding under a rock in Australia since 1991 - where does a guy go to learn about all this so that I can understand posts like this one? Hopefully I wont have to ask a disinterested teenager in a store somewhere

mjsmyth

You just kinda pick it up as you go along

MJ

DMC

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

The cost of leasing a transponder on Astra 2D is pretty minimal People tend to confuse "being on Sky" with "being on satellite" RTE could easily bypass $ky hre a transponder on Astra 2 and as long as they used the 22000 or 27500 standard symbol rates anyone with a Sky box would still be able to view

At the time, RTÉ wouldn't have know what an LNB was, let alone a transponder.

bk wrote:

I would be very surprised if RTE doesn't go Freesat after 2008. Also if you look at my last post, you will see that RTE themselves are already thinking about this. They say that 95% of the country can be covered by DTT without major expense or new sites, however the remaining 5% will be very expensive to cover, they seem to be suggesting to use Freesat to cover the final 5%

It is true that RTÉ have become more savvy since the initial deal. The BBC took a gamble by doing a solo run going FTA, and have led the way with ITV now following. Back in 1998, when Sky Digital launched, it was easy for Sky to extole the virtues of encryption, as other broadcasters didnt really know; Satellite in the eyes of the media back then only meant Sky to them. Of course, our continental neighbours have had FTA for years, but it was (relatively) unheard of around here, especially amougst broadcasters.

The article is very mixed up, having read over it again for the first time since it was published. In that article, in the Receptions Options, they only mention Sky providing Pay-tv subscriptions in the satellite section. They dont actually suggest FTA or FTV satellite to fill in they gaps terrestrial will fail to plug. They suggest

"the remainder of the country might be best served by another delivery mechanism."

That could be MMDS, for example.

They do say elsewhere that

"Satellite coverage is potentially 99%+ of the landmass, but there is currently no free-to-air satellite offering for Irish citizens. Cable/MMDS coverage is more restricted, and there is no free offering available at present."

That suggests to me that they want an offering to be already there, and not something they really want to go it alone on.

This article where it does say

"For Public Service Broadcasting to survive in the current competitive environment, a digital free-to-air or free-to-the-consumer broadcasting model is required for Ireland. This need could be met through a combined platform approach, which could include the establishment of digital terrestrial television and radio services as well as a free-to-the-consumer satellite option, and broadband and mobile solutions, to allow for a blend of public service and commercial broadcasting."

suggests to me that this is more aspirational than a definite plan. Very wishy-washy that paragraph.

Like the Transport 21 plan annouced today, we'll wait and see.

bk

DMC wrote:

This article where it does say suggests to me that this is more aspirational than a definite plan. Very wishy-washy that paragraph.

I agree, but it is good news that someone is actually thinking that way.

If enough people, like the users here on boards, get together and contact RTE and put pressure on them and show them that there is a demand for it, then it might happen.

Having been involved with IrelandOffLine for years, I know that a well organised pressure group can make a lot happen.

Maybe that is exactly what we need a pressure group.

Macy

I've said it before and I'll say it again (since there seems to be a lot of repeating going on)....

Have RTE1 for home produced shows. I can only think of the movies and the west wing (of the top of my head) that would have any kind of rights issue. Broadcast RTE1 FTA.

Put all the sport, movies, imports on RTE2 and encrypt that if needs be (FTV ideally).

I can't see anything bar a Sky contract to stop TV3 going FTA now. All their rights issues must be covered by ITV going at this stage. Give them 100% reach for starters.

Really not sure about TG4 as I only tend to stumble onto the programmes on there (they really should advertise their programmes with an English description, or I should learn Irish one or the other).

kaizersoze

Macy wrote:

Really not sure about TG4 as I only tend to stumble onto the programmes on there (they really should advertise their programmes with an English description, or I should learn Irish one or the other).

Your right.
Holloween night I checked their teletext to see what movies were on and there didn't appear to be. But later on I flicked over to it they had one of the Harry Potter films on.....dubbed in Irish and listed in the teletext in Irish.

Mossy Monk

Macy wrote:

(they really should advertise their programmes with an English description, or I should learn Irish one or the other).

it is to promote the Irish language so perhaps we should all go to a seomra scoile to learn the Gaeilge again

as for Harry Potter on TG4, i stumbled across it and the person doing the voice over for Harry Potter must have been near 30. sounded odd

Elmo

as for Harry Potter on TG4, i stumbled across it and the person doing the voice over for Harry Potter must have been near 30. sounded odd

Totally of the topic: But I will continue with it.

I think TG4 should only dub Cartoons into Irish, e.g. Antz, A Bug Life etc. You cann't really get away with dubing over Live action Movies.

Yes Harry Potter sounded about 30 and they had a big campaign to find the next harry potter. But they are good at Dubbing (IMO).

TG4 advertise their english programming in Irish, but lets face it if you see a clip of the OC or a film being advertise you don't need much Irish to guess that they are advertising the OC or a film. Other then knowing the days of the week as geilge, you don't need much else.

Also tune in to SILE she get you know some Irish.

Macy

Mossy Monk wrote:

it is to promote the Irish language so perhaps we should all go to a seomra scoile to learn the Gaeilge again

Or start from scratch. There's a significant number of us here now who didn't go to school in Ireland. I take the point, but it's TG4 that are missing out - plenty of the subtitled Irish language stuff I end up watching - just a shame I can't plan to watch it. Extra viewers = extra advertisers = extra revenue = better/ more home produced.

Elmo

De Luan = Monday
De Mart = Tuesday
De Ceadaione = Wednesday
Deardoine = Thursday
De Aoine = Friday
De Sathrain = Saturday
De Domhainach = Sunday

Sorry for the misspelling.

Other wise look up the newspaper which gives you a discription of the show in English, both Irish and English programmes.

IMO there is an over use of On screen subtitles. I personnally would like to learn more Irish but I always end up reading the subtitles. Use of Teletext would be more suitable at times. IMO.

Also the should subtitle all of the show not just the Irish parts, there are deaf people out there too.

watty

Germans, Turks, Poles, French etc prefer dubbed movies to english.

I never had any opportunity to learn Irish at School, so speak none. But I think it is great for enthusistic speakers of Irish that TG4 are dubbing.

I have met people that would like to have Irish as a first language.

Elmo

Germans, Turks, Poles, French etc prefer dubbed movies to english.

Again off the topic

I cann't watch a foreign film dubbed I would rather watch the film with subtitles. You do get the same feel for a film when its dubbed. IMO. As I said Cartoons Fine but live action no!

Ulsterman 1690

Next time youre scanning through the Channels on Hotbird check out Tele 5 from Poland. they dub films but seem to be only able to afford one person for voiceovers so that men women and children talk in the same voice

Greenman

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

Next time youre scanning through the Channels on Hotbird check out Tele 5 from Poland. they dub films but seem to be only able to afford one person for voiceovers so that men women and children talk in the same voice

And Tele 5 ain't the only one!!! and you can hear the original soundtrack under the one voice dose all dubbing!!!

Mossy Monk

and the next post will be bringing this back on topic

BrianD

Mossy Monk wrote:

contract with Sky being a main problem. but how about we manage to get it for free here in the RoI first?

You already do. It is a FTA station.

RTE will never be available "as is" in the UK. Tara Tv was ahead of its time but perhaps they start start looking at a new RTE International channel that can be distributed overseas. Mind you it won't have the sport that many would want.

Capt'n Midnight

watty wrote:

Germans, Turks, Poles, French etc prefer dubbed movies to english.

And Italians, in fact many spagetti westerns ( and other italian made films ) they did the sound later on.

RTE can't go free to air as they have to pay the studios for the numbers of people that could watch it (entire english speaking population of UK) For Italian , and german channels and Uk channels, they already pay for the rights for most of the people in the coverage area so no extra needed.

As I keep pointing out, Italian stations simply encrypt any stuff they don't have full rights to and the rest is clear. RTE could do something like this - but I'd guess it would need SKY to do something which is probably the hard bit.

Technically RTE could go FTV tomorrow.

If they had money to spare they could setup a third channel that consisted of original programming from both channels, eurovision stuff, dáil , archive and ye olde euronews /ads to fill the rest. like an RTE world service.

bungeecork

Hmmm - If BBC and ITV don't have to worry about TV rights when their signals spill into the ROI, why do RTE have to worry about spillage into the UK for theirs?

Isn't there EU legislation on this very point?

I think it is possible and that the only downside is that the BBC and ITV wouldn't allow RTE beat them to it with premieres. Therefore on Christmas Day, instead of the same movie starting on RTE 5 minutes before it started on BBC, it would be the other way around.

Mossy Monk

BrianD wrote:

You already do. It is a FTA station

but this is the satellite board. do tell me how to get it FTA in the RoI on satellite

SRB

"but this is basically the directive that BBC and ITV are using to go FTA."

"Hmmm - If BBC and ITV don't have to worry about TV rights when their signals spill into the ROI, why do RTE have to worry about spillage into the UK for theirs?"

Not strictly true - the BBC and presumably ITV now too, are actually buying rights on a "non encryption" basis, they actually won't buy in programming unless it is cleared for transmission across their entire footprint.

That said, quite why RTE don't do as BBC Prime used to do, simply show a mix of RTE1 and 2 home produced shows on a dedicated channel filling in the gaps with news pages from their text service or as Watty suggests, show home produced shows "in the clear", is a mystery.

Pal

bungeecork wrote:

Help! I've been hiding under a rock in Australia since 1991 - where does a guy go to learn about all this so that I can understand posts like this one? Hopefully I wont have to ask a disinterested teenager in a store somewhere

I found this site helpful as a newbie
http://www.duwgati.com/uk/index.htm
click on basic information

Tony

BrianD wrote:

You already do. It is a FTA station.

Obviously the poster meant via satellite on which it is encrypted, surely you knew this Brian??

Capt'n Midnight

bungeecork wrote:

Hmmm - If BBC and ITV don't have to worry about TV rights when their signals spill into the ROI, why do RTE have to worry about spillage into the UK for theirs?

The people they pay are Hollywood. They make up the rules. When BBC were on the older transponders that covered the whole of Europe the BBC would have to cover the rights of about 300Million Europeans who had English as a first language or were fairly fluent in it as a second language ~ 5 times the UK population . Now there are only 3.8Million freeloaders. RTE would have to pay for the rights for an extra 60Million UK viewers.

Greenman

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

The people they pay are Hollywood. They make up the rules. When BBC were on the older transponders that covered the whole of Europe the BBC would have to cover the rights of about 300Million Europeans who had English as a first language or were fairly fluent in it as a second language ~ 5 times the UK population . Now there are only 3.8Million freeloaders. RTE would have to pay for the rights for an extra 60Million UK viewers.

But what about that EU spillover rule???

kaizersoze

Greenman wrote:

But what about that EU spillover rule???

Does the directive only apply to terestrial broadcasts? Maybe?

Greenman

kaizersoze wrote:

Does the directive only apply to terestrial broadcasts? Maybe?

Have a read http://www.wipo.int/clea/docs_new/en/de/de071en.html

David Robinson

Greenman wrote:

But what about that EU spillover rule???

The US won't even sign up to Kyoto, do you really think they will abide by EU rules?:rolleyes:

kaizersoze

Greenman wrote:

Have a read http://www.wipo.int/clea/docs_new/en/de/de071en.html

I hadn't read it but I have now:D.
Thanks for the link.
Do you think that all these factors (over-spill, EU law, etc) are taken into account when movie/TV studios are negotiating rights with EU broadcasters?

bk

kaizersoze wrote:

I hadn't read it but I have now:D.
Thanks for the link.
Do you think that all these factors (over-spill, EU law, etc) are taken into account when movie/TV studios are negotiating rights with EU broadcasters?

IANAL

A directive is not a law, each EU country must take the directive create local legislation from it. This can often take many years and each country may interpret the directive slightly differently.

I belive that is why the BBC and ITV only went FTA recently, because the law only came into effect in the UK recently.

Once it is in law, then the studios cannot ignore it during broadcasting rights negotations and they can't charge extra for spill over.