Program on Alien Abduction/Sleep Paralysis - Thursday, Nov-3rd, 1630h, BBC Radio 4

robindch

Chris French, who gave a fascinating talk to the Irish Skeptics Society last year will be speaking on alien abduction on the BBC on Thursday afternoon:

Thursday, November 3rd, 1630h, BBC Radio 4
The Material World http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/thematerialworld.shtml
Being abducted by Aliens may be perfectly normal - well, sort of.

Enthusiasm for extra-terrestrial life has perplexed and intrigued humans since the civilisations of ancient Egypt and Babylon. But why are we so fascinated by aliens? What can life on Earth tell us about how life on other planets might evolve? Is there intelligent life out there? If so, will we ever make contact?

Why do many people believe that we have been visited by aliens? Do our ideas about aliens stem from science fiction or the folklore of fairies and monsters? Are they a psychological projection of human hopes and fears, or is our interest in a world outside our own an inbuilt phenomenon?

Quentin Cooper talks to Chris French, Head of the Anomalistic Psychology Research Unit at Goldsmiths College, London. His research suggests alien abduction experiences are similar to other paranormal phenomena such as ghosts and their physical grounding may be in sleep paralysis.

Sleep paralysis is a well-known phenomenon, whereby you wake up in the middle of the night with your chest muscles paralyzed, and in a semi-hallucinatory state from lack of oxygen and sudden arousal. Many researchers who've studied what's actually going on believe that sleep paralysis is responsible for the abundant reports of night-time alien abduction. The condition is believed to affect around one third of the population at some stage during their lives.

Some brief further info lives at:

http://skepdic.com/sleepparalysis.html

...or through google.

Zillah

robindch wrote:

Sleep paralysis is a well-known phenomenon, whereby you wake up in the middle of the night with your chest muscles paralyzed, and in a semi-hallucinatory state from lack of oxygen and sudden arousal.

Its generally your appendages that are paralysed. There is often a sense of pressure on the chest.

The hallucinatory state is a brain function where your brain continues generating dreams. Theyre called hypnogogic hallucinations and to my knowledge have nothing to do with a lack of oxygen.

And thank you, I'll check that out.

robindch

> nothing to do with a lack of oxygen.

Some sufferers of sleep paralysis report being in a tunnel - this tunnelling hallucination is a classic symptom oxygen deprivation. See the good guys over in CSICOP who report on this in some detail:

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-05/near-death-experience.html

> Its generally your appendages that are paralysed.
> There is often a sense of pressure on the chest.

Yes, you're quite right, I should have been more specific (that's the after-effects of hallowe'en quantities of beer for you )

Kernel

Interesting, but where do the metal implants recovered from many abductees come from??

Zillah

Kernel wrote:

Interesting, but where do the metal implants recovered from many abductees come from??

What have you been reading? Not once (to my knowledge) has anyone ever recovered anything that couldn't easily be explained by traditional explainations.

One of the most famous abductees (he shows up in lots of documentaries) had an "alien implant" removed from his leg. It appeared to be a tiny sliver of glass. He insists its an alien device...

Another case was a ball bearing from a pellet gun.

Then there's loads more of cases of what appear to be odd organic lumps, which are the most common and have a very clear explanation. When a foreign body enters a human it will often be covered in a protective layer to stop it from interfering with normal bodily functions.

Aside from all that, the vast majority of scientists that investigate abductions accept that its almost certainly a phenomena that is derived within the subjects head, rather than an actual real world event. Some victims have been seen by witnesses, and when they say they were in a space ship, they were actually sitting staring into space.

Fascinating subject really.

robindch

> where do the metal implants recovered from many abductees come from?

Could you provide some evidence that any unexpected metal implants were recovered from "abductees"? I'm certainly not aware of any, but would love to hear some.

Kernel

Zillah wrote:

What have you been reading? Not once (to my knowledge) has anyone ever recovered anything that couldn't easily be explained by traditional explainations.

I've been reading this book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671851942/qid=1131018403/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_10_3/026-7109777-0457209

The evidence isn't conclusive as to the origin of implants recovered from abductees, however some strange things have been recovered, some unidentifiable, and many were found under scar tissue which wasn't previously on the abductees body.

Zillah wrote:

One of the most famous abductees (he shows up in lots of documentaries) had an "alien implant" removed from his leg. It appeared to be a tiny sliver of glass. He insists its an alien device...

Another case was a ball bearing from a pellet gun.

I heard about these cases all right, but there was another case where ultra-pure magnesium was recovered, among other strange devices. You must also bear in mind that biotelemetry was used in the MKULTRA mind control programme of the CIA as far back as the 60's.

Zillah wrote:

Then there's loads more of cases of what appear to be odd organic lumps, which are the most common and have a very clear explanation. When a foreign body enters a human it will often be covered in a protective layer to stop it from interfering with normal bodily functions.

True, the body coats a foreign body with organic matter to isolate it, and keep the system healthy, but how can you say that future or advanced technology would not be biological in nature? After all, the most technologically advanced and complex technology known to man is our own brain, and that's organic.

Zillah wrote:

Aside from all that, the vast majority of scientists that investigate abductions accept that its almost certainly a phenomena that is derived within the subjects head, rather than an actual real world event. Some victims have been seen by witnesses, and when they say they were in a space ship, they were actually sitting staring into space.

Fascinating subject really.

Well, professor John E Mack, a Harvard psychologist, interviewed hundreds of cases of abduction and concluded there was a reality to the experiences in many cases - an objective reality or not is more difficult to prove, but the subjects believed completely, and in Mack's opinion they were not lying or exaggerating. So, it would be a psychological condition that he and many others are not familiar with. Don't go all 'mass hallucination' explanation on me Zillah! With regard to transport to ships etc. I'm not saying that happens, but within our own limited knowledge of reality and multidimensional physics, it's still possible that an external intelligence (ultraterrestrial perhaps?) is responsible for it, and the 'ship' doesn't even exist in our own space time reality.

I agree that it is fascinating though.

Robindch, I hope this helps explain my position, I'm away for lunch now, but I will try to dig up some examples of 'concrete physical objective' type evidence you skeptic guys love. It's getting harder to track down information lately on the net, since disinformation is spreading throughout, and obviously there is an effort to discredit or obscure facts relating to certain matters. I reckon the CIA/NSA or some such organisation would probably have an entire department of agents whose sole job is to spread disinformation and discredit theories/people on the net. Makes sense from an operational standpoint, given their mission objectives.

Zillah

I like the "ultraterrestrial" theory, but its very nature makes it impossible for us to verify without a few more million years of evolution.

Technology will only take us so far, biology has to catch up, and that line does not cross the capacity to acurately percieve other dimensions, I suspect.

As for "biotech implants" its a moot point, if they are biotechnology then its beyond our ken and as equally unverifiable as the ultraterrestrial.

Ziycon

Another part of sleep paralysis which has been report is that you have a over whleaming feeling of another presence in the room with you even if you dont see anything! Usually just out of sight you feel there is a presence there but cant move to see what it is!

solas

zillah wrote:

I like the "ultraterrestrial" theory

care to share?

[i've personally had one of these experiences-sleep paralysis/higher being type stuff, feel free to interogate me]

Kernel

Zillah wrote:

I like the "ultraterrestrial" theory, but its very nature makes it impossible for us to verify without a few more million years of evolution.

Technology will only take us so far, biology has to catch up, and that line does not cross the capacity to acurately percieve other dimensions, I suspect.

Not necessarily - evolution of our perception of reality, or our level of consciousness could certainly help, but as you say it would take a lot of evolution, and the brain has a tendency to evolve only for a species to survive successfully. There is no real evidence that we just 'get better' the longer we survive. Every sense we have and our entire make up is governed by our needs for survival in the past. Unless we need a new sense, why should we develop it.

It could be possible using technology, however, since as our understanding of the universe and reality increase and improve, we should be able to manipulate our universe better, and that is where the ultraterrestrial hypothesis comes into play. Our part on the stage is relatively brief, and other civilisations may have vastly out-developed us (statistically speaking, it is not just a probability, but a certainty, if you subscribe to Einstein's multidimensional theory). These civilisations may have tapped into a way to enter another dimension in space time, and that may be where our 'visitors' come from, rather than travelling vast distances. The philadelphia experiment, if you believe it in entirety, may have even inadvertantly popped a US Navy ship into another 'reality' for a time. Such slips in reality could be controlled by many strange, but physical and scientific methods - perhaps even naturally occurring ones, ala Bermuda Triangle.

Zillah wrote:

As for "biotech implants" its a moot point, if they are biotechnology then its beyond our ken and as equally unverifiable as the ultraterrestrial.

The fact that the CIA experimented and used (still use?) implants, could suggest a more terrestrial explanation, in much the same way that cattle mutilations are believed by many to be secret research carried out by the US government themselves to study radiation or chemical levels in certain areas.

Solas, for info on the ultra terrestrial matter, google 'ultra-terrestrial hypothesis', there's nothing on wiki, but a good few pages in google. In summation, it's the theory that other beings and civilisations exist in the same space-time as us, but on different dimensional levels or planes of existence, and that is responsible for many fortean or paranormal phenomenon. It's not something that is easily explainable to us, more of a 'best theory we've so far evolved', in my opinion anyway, as someone who has studied paranormal as a kind of hobby, for about 14 years.

John Keel is credited with the hypothesis, and his excellent book 'The Mothman Prophecies' will give you a flavour for the weirdness of it all. Highly recommended book btw.

Zillah

Solas wrote:

Zillah wrote:

I like the "ultraterrestrial" theory

care to share?

Kernel wrote:

(ultraterrestrial perhaps?) is responsible for it, and the 'ship' doesn't even exist in our own space time reality.

Just the idea that "aliens" aren't from another planet in the "over there" sort of sense, more that they are beings from a alternate aspect of the universe, another dimension or space time existence. All that fringe science stuff.

Solas wrote:

[i've personally had one of these experiences-sleep paralysis/higher being type stuff, feel free to interogate me]

As have I. I experienced all of the usual aspects except for the sense of presence. I couldn't move, I felt pressure on the chest, and I could still hear the sounds from the dream I had been having even though my eyes were open and I could see my room.

Kernel wrote:

The philadelphia experiment, if you believe it in entirety, may have even inadvertantly popped a US Navy ship into another 'reality' for a time. Such slips in reality could be controlled by many strange, but physical and scientific methods - perhaps even naturally occurring ones, ala Bermuda Triangle.

Quite frankly with the vast number of contradictory, illogical and down right hypothetical versions of events I'll not put any weight in that experiment until the US navy says "We sent a battleship into another dimension". Its a lovely story though. However, its pure pure pure hypothesis to say it went to another dimension. Even if you take the unofficial story at face value, all it did was vanish and reappear elsewhere/later. They were trying to make it invisble.

John Keel is credited with the hypothesis, and his excellent book 'The Mothman Prophecies' will give you a flavour for the weirdness of it all. Highly recommended book btw.

I have heard interesting things as to the consistency and compelling nature of the mothman encounters. Must read it... I'd reccomend the 1979(?) "Operation Trojan Horse" (or something like that...) for an outstanding account of the history of UFOs from about 1850 onwards. Apparently during the late 1800's there were a huge number of encounters with "airships" piloted by extraordinary people who knew things about the state of the world thousands of miles away. One of the best reads I've ever had.

[/rant]

stevenmu

Kernel wrote:

... the brain has a tendency to evolve only for a species to survive successfully. There is no real evidence that we just 'get better' the longer we survive...

It's been suggested, and it makes sense to me, that seeing as we have almost totall control of our environment and almost everything we use is manufactured to perfectly suit us, that there's no 'push' for us to evolve physically and the only way left for us to evolve is mentally. Due to the rapidly increasing complexities of modern technology and society there is in fact a huge 'push' on us to evolve mentally and this is indeed happening, generally the evidence for this is the average scores in IQ tests, but this is somewhat contentious, so someone did a study comparing peoples abillities to fully grasp the theory of relativity and found that the numbers of people able to understand it have hugely increased.

(edit: I think I read this in the Indo at some stage, not sure where I'd look for references)

Zillah

stevenmu wrote:

It's been suggested, and it makes sense to me, that seeing as we have almost totall control of our environment and almost everything we use is manufactured to perfectly suit us, that there's no 'push' for us to evolve physically and the only way left for us to evolve is mentally. Due to the rapidly increasing complexities of modern technology and society there is in fact a huge 'push' on us to evolve mentally and this is indeed happening, generally the evidence for this is the average scores in IQ tests, but this is somewhat contentious, so someone did a study comparing peoples abillities to fully grasp the theory of relativity and found that the numbers of people able to understand it have hugely increased.

(edit: I think I read this in the Indo at some stage, not sure where I'd look for references)

Thats a little specious. If people ever die before old age then we're still evolving in every way possible.

As for IQ tests, they have absolutely no relevancy in terms of evolution. IQ test have only be around for, well, im not sure, but if its less than say, 500 thousand years, then they can tell us nothing of evolution. However, they can tell us that we're vastly more educated than people fifty years ago.

stevenmu

Zillah wrote:

Quite frankly with the vast number of contradictory, illogical and down right hypothetical versions of events I'll not put any weight in that experiment until the US navy says "We sent a battleship into another dimension". Its a lovely story though. However, its pure pure pure hypothesis to say it went to another dimension. Even if you take the unofficial story at face value, all it did was vanish and reappear elsewhere/later. They were trying to make it invisble.

There's a bit more too it than they were trying to make a ship invisible and it just happened to pop into another dimension (altough from the navy's perspective that is more or less it), especially if you start reading up on the Montauk Project (which was the follow on from it). I realy must make a post on the conspiracy theories forum about it, but in the meantime I'll see if I can find some good links for it, it explains the Philidelphia Experiment, and more, in a rational, logical, almost believable (if completely unproven) way.

stevenmu

Zillah wrote:

Thats a little specious. If people ever die before old age then we're still evolving in every way possible.

As for IQ tests, they have absolutely no relevancy in terms of evolution. IQ test have only be around for, well, im not sure, but if its less than say, 500 thousand years, then they can tell us nothing of evolution. However, they can tell us that we're vastly more educated than people fifty years ago.

I agree that we're much better educated today (we'll put that down to social evolution, not mental) but iirc they ran the study by explaining the concept to people and then testing their ability to understand it (damn, now I'm going to actually have to find it to back me up). One of the things I really love about the TOR is that no education is really necessary to understand it, it's the kind of thing where you can either grasp it's concepts or not.

solas

kernel wrote:

In summation, it's the theory that other beings and civilisations exist in the same space-time as us, but on different dimensional levels or planes of existence, and that is responsible for many fortean or paranormal phenomenon. It's not something that is easily explainable to us, more of a 'best theory we've so far evolved', in my opinion anyway,

this is very much how I understand it too, to the best of my ability. I don't know if you have ever seen the movie "contact" (or read the book by the same name) based on Carl Sagan novel, but that comes pretty close to explaining what you term "ultraterrestrial theory". Works for me.
[and was how sleep paralysis was for me, even down to the sensations of travelling through a wormhole]

Kernel

solas wrote:

this is very much how I understand it too, to the best of my ability. I don't know if you have ever seen the movie "contact" (or read the book by the same name) based on Carl Sagan novel, but that comes pretty close to explaining what you term "ultraterrestrial theory". Works for me.
[and was how sleep paralysis was for me, even down to the sensations of travelling through a wormhole]

In the Mothman Prophecies, Keel (a devout paranormal investigator of many years) has no other way to explain the 'high-strangeness' of the experiences at Point Pleasant, the witness testimony of the strange way the MiBs acted, their questions and demands (apparently, in many cases they knocked on people's doors and asked for a glass of water for example), and looked oriental but spoke with a robotic monotone... Then there is the Mothman entity itself, and then the strange phonecalls and prophecies... Great book, and a great mystery.

I was reading a Sagan book called 'The Demon Haunted World', but have several books to go through at the moment (just finished The Philadelphia Experiment - less than bullet proof evidence and witnesses, but intriquing nonetheless), so I put it aside, as it seemed to be a very skeptical and blinkered view on paranormal phenomenon. Might read it now actually!

On a personal note, I once experienced this 'sleep paralysis' thing, which was very terrifying. I basically woke in my bed in the middle of the night, feeling that something small was at the foot of my bed and watching me. I don't know why, but I felt pure blind panic, and that the 'thing' was malevolent. Then I felt something jump on my chest (I could swear to this day I felt it physically hit my chest), and I jumped up in the bed a let out a roar. I hopped out of bed, put on the light and there was nothing, only me standing there sweating! Door and windows were all closed as I always have them.

Seems very very real at the time, but I wouldn't say it was..... or maybe...

Zillah

Kernel wrote:

On a personal note, I once experienced this 'sleep paralysis' thing, which was very terrifying. I basically woke in my bed in the middle of the night, feeling that something small was at the foot of my bed and watching me. I don't know why, but I felt pure blind panic, and that the 'thing' was malevolent. Then I felt something jump on my chest (I could swear to this day I felt it physically hit my chest), and I jumped up in the bed a let out a roar. I hopped out of bed, put on the light and there was nothing, only me standing there sweating! Door and windows were all closed as I always have them.

Seems very very real at the time, but I wouldn't say it was..... or maybe...

You appear to have had the very unfortunate experience of your brain making a cohesive experience. So it seems very real. Mine was obviously a "glitch". I was awake, but frozen, and could still hear my dream going on in the background. Luckily I knew exactly what was happening. No amount of forcing could unparalyse me, but I managed to "jerk" some working muscles to shake off the entire effect.

Very interesting really.

solas

kernel wrote:

as it seemed to be a very skeptical and blinkered view on paranormal phenomenon.

Sagan was very much a scientist, although he is considered an atheist and at times an agnostic, I appreciate his perspective greatly. He didn't so much discount the paranormal, he searched for answers to things we know little about. Sometimes this brings both realms together in the middle somewhere.

I can understand why people might associate sleep paralysis with alien abduction, especially so as the sensation leaves the impression that you are being taken from your body or being pulled into another "dimension". (I didn't sense any interference or another presence, nor did I see spaceships but I can see how these ideas are formed)
Sagans concepts of space and time make this a theoretical possibilty.
maybe our consciousness aren't bound by space and time.