Depression/bipolar

orlandothecat

Hey there,

I'm going through a hell of a depression (a lifelong thing; I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder last year). Not only am I depressed, I'm depressed about being depressed, mainly because I'm really resisting going down the pathway of taking the drugs normally prescribed for bipolar (lithium and the like).

I've been on antidepressants for years and don't really think they've helped the core problem, just put a sticking plaster on them (although I now can't come off them without serious withdrawal symptoms). So I'm reluctant to go through the whole process again with mood stabilisers.

The stigma and lack of progressive thinking around depression in this country is bad enough, but with bipolar it's even worse! So I just thought it'd be good to find some other people who are going through something similar.

Also, can anyone tell me have they had any success with non-drug therapy for bipolar? CBT? Meditation? Yoga? Diet? I've tried different types of talk therapy, as well as doing yoga, which all helps - but I still haven't managed to conquer it, but I just want to make sure I explore every avenue before taking mood stabilisers

Thanks
orlandothecat

Volvoboy

cbt is a good option i tryed it when i was in hosp, it gets down into the core of your life to date family work and such, but most of the treatments that are out there work best with antidepressants. i'd talk to your doc about what are your best options.

Usually it takes a while to be compleately cured, im off drugs now about six months and i had my last session with my doc last friday i'd been seeing him for about 18 months, so there is hope!!
Sorry forgot to mention i was depressed not bipolar

patzer117

Isn't bi-polar a chemical imbalance in the brain? If it is then I'm curious how anything other than medicine would cure it (it has obvious benefits for depression but i can't think how it would work for bi-polar)?

I know somebody who has it and when they tried to come off the medicine they had a complete regression.

patzer

snorlax

CBT is often requires alot of determination and work on your part if you decide to do it.

here's some info: http://www.bipolarworld.net/Treatments/Treatments/tr9.htm

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Cognitive therapy or cognitive behavior therapy is a kind of psychotherapy used to treat depression , anxiety disorders , phobias , and other forms of psychological disorder It involves recognising distorted thinking and learning to replace it with more realistic substitute ideas. Its practitioners hold that the cause of many (though not all) depressions are irrational thoughts . Cognitive therapy is often used in conjunction with mood stabilizing medications to treat bipolar disorder. According to the U.S-based National Association of Cognitive-Behavioral Therapists:[/FONT]
"There are several approaches to cognitive-behavioral therapy, including Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy, Rational Behavior Therapy, Rational Living Therapy, Cognitive Therapy, and Dialectic Behavior Therapy."


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times] Thoughts as the cause of emotions
[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]With thoughts stipulated as being the cause of emotions rather than vice-versa, cognitive therapists reverse the causal order more generally used by psychotherapists. The therapy is essentially, therefore, to identify those irrational thoughts that are making one unhappy and what it is about them that is irrational; this is done in an effort to reject the depressing thoughts and replace them with more accurate, but also more cheering thoughts.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Cognitive therapy is not an overnight process. Even once a patient has learnt to recognise when and where his thought processes are going awry, it can take months of concerted effort to replace an invalid thought with a more suitable one. But with patience and a good therapist, cognitive therapy can be a valuable tool in recovery.[/FONT]

CBT is often done in conjunction with mood stabilisers.

orlandothecat

Hey thanks for the messages. Yeah, I'll definitely give CBT a go alright. Patzer, I'm just not 100% convinced that it can all be put down to a chemical imbalance. That's what a lot of people say about depression too, but in my experience it's about so much more than that - and the solution to 'chemical imbalance', ie drugs, just treats the symptoms not the cause. I could be wrong, but I think that it makes sense that bipolar is the same...

LegacyUser

orlandothecat wrote:

I'm depressed about being depressed

thats not unusual.

tomsie100

Hello
I had scitonferina about three years ago.
I found a good theraphist who seemed to care and gave me excellent advice. with his advice and help after 2 years recovering and one like being a zombie on tablets. The tablets worked wonders at the start though, they got rid of the voices. After 2 years i was normal, i was suffering more from being unemployed, lonley, comfort eating and lack of friends. I got a job and my life improved no end. At that time i was ready for the job. Now i have been working 6 months, like my job and have been 10 weeks off all sweet food.

(A) Get a theraphist who will help you and who you believe in.
I have found that theraphist in the western health board that you get for free have said. Your ok you have normal problems and wernt great at helping me. So try and find someone good mabeye Cognitive therapy person.

(B) Keep taking your tablets. After 6 months i reduced mine a bit.
And ask people are you like a zombie my theraphist told me that to my face he said the tablets have you ruined. I still dont know if it was the tablets or the disease that took my motivation away. But the main thing is its back thank god.

(C) I find that Buddhism is a good long term help for these problems. Especially Kadampa buddhism. It is like Cognitive therapy it replaces all negative states of mind and emontions with positive ones. If you put a few years into it. It would be cheaper and much more powerfull than Cognitive therapy. If you go to Cognitive therapy you will see they credit buddhism alot for their ideas but it takes time and comitment. But it is my passion getting to understand my mind. Try here http://www.meditateinireland.com/
This group is a very good group and i cant recomend them more.
I have friends there but pratice in Galway

Please get a theraphist who can help you. And surround yourself with people who want to see you better.

Im no doctor but when you i tablets that worked for me.
I stuck on them didnt let people change them and if 4 of 5 months went fine id reduce them a little. I now am on a dose that i happy with that doesnt cause me problems. I not saying for you to do this, and definately not at the start but mabeye a year down the road reduce by a little bit, try to find a balance that suits you.

Feel free to contact me at t_o_m_sie@yahoo DOT com
I will give you all the help i can and the names of people that helped me.

I Wish you good Health
Thomas

Corksham

Hi

feel free to PM me I suffered with depression for years as well and I can tell you what I have done, I understand the stigma you refer.

J

mcguiver

Hi,
I have a close friend who suffers with Bi-polar.
First and foremost... chemical imbalance is the core of this problem...... DO NOT MESS WITH WHAT YOUR PRESCRIBED. If you don't think what's prescribed is working then explain in detail what your feeling to your doctor/team thats looking after you. e.g. you feel agitated? illogical mood changes? you know things are good, but you feel sad ?

A couple of years ago this guy decided to reduce his own dosage... messsed him up for 6 months....and of course it took a while to figure out what he'd done (plus a very forcefull admittance to hospital.... not pretty).

Bi-polar also has it's up sides... honestly, those who have it tend to go to extreems, in work, in play, in creativity.... when your down your really down, but when your up you give it 100%... work mad hours, brain goes into overdrive for thinking ahead etc. They also tend to be highly intelligent people.

The fact that you know your feeling wrong is a good thing...it's the ones who don't feel it dont get it under control.

nesf

Mood stabilisers are a lot "nicer" to take than anti-depressants in my experience (ie I've been on high doses of both over the years). There are less side effects and less problems coming down off them.

I'd agree with McGuiver though. Messing with your drugs without talking to your psychiatrist first is a very bad idea. It can really mess things up. Psychiatrists want you to be on the lowest dose in my experience and will generally try to minimise your drugs where possible.


Good luck with it, and take care of yourself.

orlandothecat

Thanks for all the messages. I guess one of the problems is I'm not 100% convinced it's bipolar - or if it is it's a wierd one where any 'highs' really aren't that high, but the depressions are rock bottom. Sure, sometimes I feel happy and confident and creative, but I don't go and do anything crazy like you read about in the literature. Sounds daft but it's more like I'm just really really happy not to be depressed! (By the way, I know this sounds like denial - but seriously! Even friends I'd really trust are dubious about the bipolar diagnosis).
nesf, i'm interested to hear you say that psychiatrists want you to be on the lowest dose possible. Every time I see a psychiatrist they try and convince me to go on lithium which, as far as I understand, is a pretty stone-age and highly toxic drug with lots of side-effects...

nesf

Lithium is only toxic in an overdose, like a lot of drugs. It's perfectly safe (ie as safe as any other drug) at theraputic doses. It's a very effective treatment for bipolar and I would definitely not dismiss it because it is quite an old treatment.

Bipolar doesn't require you to have "big" highs. It can consist of deep depressions and mild manias. Or mild depressions and severe manias. The thing about is that you have mood swings.

I wouldn't worry about it and I'd give mood stabilisers a try. The diagnosis doesn't really matter that much so long as the drugs are working for you.

noodle_soup

I am with everyone else on this one. DO NOT stop taking your medication!! My sister is Bi-polar and she stopped taking her medication because she conviced herself she didnt need it n then had a huge manic episode. She was then put on more than three times what she was taking until she was stable again, which by the way took months. Before this her psychiatrist told her she might be off her meds or at least on a very low dose of meds within a year, now it will be 2 years at least. Taking the medication can be crap but not taking it can be worse. The highs that many people with Bi-polar experience can also cause permanent brain damage if they are not kept under control!! I agree that the meds dont treat the entire problem though. There are usually other issues that you have to work through so some form of therapy would definitely help its just down to finding the one that suits you best. Asking your docter or phsyciatrist about your meds is a really good idea they do know what theyre talking about even thought they arent going through what your going through and theyre there to help so use them.

LadyJane

patzer117 wrote:

Isn't bi-polar a chemical imbalance in the brain? If it is then I'm curious how anything other than medicine would cure it (it has obvious benefits for depression but i can't think how it would work for bi-polar)?

I know somebody who has it and when they tried to come off the medicine they had a complete regression.

patzer

What ever you do don't take Zyprexa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdfR4N9UBhk

Nightwish

I have bi-polar disorder, but no-one knows about it. The reason why no-one knows is because, like the OP says, people think you are mental. I was on a high dose of prozac for a while but I hated the fact I was putting chemicals into my body to feel "normal". It doesnt work for everyone, so don't take my word for it. I read Gareth O'Callaghans book about depression and it helped a lot. I know bi-polar means you should be on medication, and I do have manic episodes (my poor bf god love him for putting up with me), but I do think I can do it drug free.

AnonoBoy

A friend of mine suffers from bi-polar and after seeing him going into hospital a couple of times I would really advise you to talk to your doctor and/or therapist at length before going off your medication.

The thing with my friend was that he'd insist he was fine and was able to go off them and then he'd slowly start sliding into another manic episode. It still nearly makes me cry to just think of them, he'd turn up in various parts of the country 'visiting' friends and his family would have no idea where'd he gone. He was convinced they were out to get him and thought he hated them for it. It was tragic. But with medication and therapy he's now back to the guy that we all know and recognise.

Please think very carefully before going off your meds. I'm not suggesting that just taking them alone will be the answer but they should be combined with therapy to get you back on track with your life.

greenteaicedtea

Cognitive-behavioural therapy helped me a lot. It's purpose is to help you stop thinking negative thoughts and bringing yoruself down.

I have learned to avoid stressful thigns and people, and if someone stresses me out, eg. someone I can't avoid talking to, like co-workers and family, I tell them straight out that their behaviour (eg. complaining about the job, government, women, whatever) makes it harder for me to get out of bed in the morning and face the day, and they back off and tone it down.

I worked so hard to get happy that I'm not letting anyone ruin my day. (or week or year) I gave my sister an ultimatum: either she should get therapy together with me, so we could get along better, or that I would stop speaking to her. She admitted she gets a thrill out of making me angry, said she didn't have time for therapy (she has a new baby). She has been nice to me ever since, which has been a relief.

I did take Paxil and then Zoloft, I briefly took Luvox but the side effects were too much. Paxil I tapered off slowly after I got a new job and felt better (broke them in half, then quarters, eighths) because when I stopped Luvox quickly, I felt like I'd been hit by a truck. Any SSRI, you have to taper it slowly, preferably under the doctor's supervision.

I also try to get exercise and eat healthy and keep involved in hobbies, that helps me keep from being depressed.

kraggy

Op, be very careful when deciding whether or not to start taking Lithium.

I'm no doctor but i wonder if you saw Stephen Fry's brilliant documentary about bi polar? He interviewed some sufferers of BP, some famous and some ordinary folk, about their experiences and in particular their views on Lithium. It was not too positive from what i can recall.

If you could get your hands on a copy of that programme it would be worthwhile watching, interesting viewing if nothing else. Was on BBC 2 (2 parts) about 6 months ago.

Moss

The debate about the usefulness of medication often comes up on boards and it is difficult to participate without straying into the area of medical advice.

There was a big debate recently on this issue in the letters pages of the Irish Times. After about two weeks one of the most highly respected Psychiatrists in Ireland, Professor Emeritus Ivor Browne, University College Dublin, wrote in to settle the issue. If the letter got past the Irish Times lawyers then it should be suitable to post here. I believe anyone suffering from mental illness would benefit from reading this letter, so I am posting it in full below.

OP, get a second opinion on your problems from a psychologist. If you live in Dublin try this place: http://www.clanwilliam.ie/index.cfm/loc/6.htm .

Lithium is a toxic substance which numbs the brain. Thats how it works. Anyone taking this drug has to get regular blood tests to make sure the substance does not build up in their system which could prove fatal. Doctors try to achieve a balance between a dosage level that achieves "therapeutic effectiveness" [i.e. a sufficient amount to numb the brain and prevent dramatic swings in mood] and a level that is dangerous. Coming off this drug carries a high risk of recurrence of symptoms.


Irish Times Letter:

Madam, - Having read the letter from the group of six professors of psychiatry in response to the piece by Breda O'Brien, "The Minister's View On Mental Illness," I do not share the view that the Minister's remarks were "downright irresponsible". I feel obliged therefore, to enter what is becoming a national debate on the nature of mental illness.

It seems an obvious thing to say that from before and after birth to adult death, human beings experience things that cause them suffering, but this is a fact of life that is overlooked. Some can bear more than others, some understand more than others; but suffering is a part of life and may become so unbearable that we want to fix it. At that point we look for help, usually from a doctor, and often find that our feelings are called "mental illness". There is such a thing as mental illness, of course, but not all sufferers are mentally ill.

Because of the mechanistic attitude which has accompanied the enormous advances in science and technology, the Western mind has fallen into the illusion that there is a remedy for every ill. The belief has grown up that it is the doctor who cures. The body is seen as a machine with which something has gone wrong, and the doctor's job is to fix it.

Similarly, we have tended to fall into the error of thinking that the therapist cures the patient. When applied to psychotherapy, or to psychiatry generally, this is an erroneous notion. In dealing with psychiatric illness there is no treatment which you can apply to people which brings about real change in them. People have to undertake the work themselves and this is involves pain and suffering.

The only lasting positive change anyone can make is within him/herself. The deeper the change to be accomplished, the greater the amount of pain and suffering involved. People resist change for this reason, even when they realise that change will be positive.

By giving tranquillisers and relieving symptoms, something has been achieved temporarily. But no real change has taken place, and sooner or later most people will have a recurrence of their symptoms with the added burden of the side-effects which most drugs inflict. Many drugs are useful on a temporary basis but are not treatments for specific "psychiatric diseases". However, no psychiatrist who deals with the full range of psychiatric disturbance could manage without them. The question is whether they are given as a treatment themselves or as aid to working in psychotherapy with the person. Often the drug is the only way of facilitating the initial contact so that therapy can begin.

It is not the drug, it is the message which accompanies the drug which is really damaging. Typically, if a person is "clinically" depressed they are told that whenever they feel a depression descending on them they must contact their psychiatrist and commence the appropriate medication. It is because of this, more than anything else, that many people are gradually entrained into a pathway of illness. Perceiving themselves as "ill" and helpless, they move into a state of chronic ill health.

Clusters of symptoms tell one little about the cause, or the natural history, of these so-called "disorders". They have a more ominous significance however, for once you can name symptoms as a "disease" you have created an apparent reality. Then, if you have a specific "disease", due to some, as yet unidentified, underlying biochemical abnormality, there should be a "specific" remedy to deal with it. This suits the pharmaceutical industry perfectly. Unfortunately, most psychiatrists have taken this great falsehood on board.

All that drugs can do is to temporarily reduce symptoms, making life bearable. No drug can teach you what you need to know to manage life or have a personal identity. Often in life we cannot see how we got to where we are, or why we continue to make the same mistakes no matter how hard we try. If a person could undertake whatever change is necessary to manage their life successfully, there would be no need for a psychiatrist or therapist. Of course, the person who comes to our aid need not be a professional; indeed, a great deal of helpful intervention is carried out by self-help organisations such as Alcoholics Anonymous, Grow, etc. but in many situations a friend is not enough and the objectivity and understanding of a person with experience and training is necessary.

Finally, I return to the fundamental principle that it is people themselves who have to undertake the work if they are to bring about any real change in their lives. If what we are attempting to change is ourselves, our deepest personalities, then this can be painful indeed.

If the person who is "mentally" ill is not prepared to suffer, then, to put it bluntly, you can have all the skills and training and be the most experienced psychiatrist, but you will be absolutely helpless to do anything for them. - Yours etc,

IVOR BROWNE, (Professor Emeritus, University College Dublin), Ranelagh,Dublin 6.

Miss Fluff

kraggy wrote:

Op, be very careful when deciding whether or not to start taking Lithium.

I'm no doctor but i wonder if you saw Stephen Fry's brilliant documentary about bi polar? He interviewed some sufferers of BP, some famous and some ordinary folk, about their experiences and in particular their views on Lithium. It was not too positive from what i can recall.

If you could get your hands on a copy of that programme it would be worthwhile watching, interesting viewing if nothing else. Was on BBC 2 (2 parts) about 6 months ago.

OMG was just thinking of that while reading through this thread. A programme well worth watching imo although desperately sad so would advise against watching it if feeling low.

I am 20 and was sought help for depression. I was prescribed a low dose of anti depressants that sent me into a manic state. The only way of describing it would be to say that my senses were heightened to the point that I felt the most alive I've ever felt. I think that my brain reacted to grief that I experienced by dulling my senses; my ability to recieve the world in a sense. Suddenly my brain was filled with serotonin and hormones were filling my body.

The manic state was quite manageable, and it proved to me that I was suffering from crippling depression in the years before. I was suddenly able to walk down the street and feel freedom connect with people and felt "So this is how other people go through live".

I was taken off the anti depressants because when used alone in bipolar treatment, they cause rapid cycling moods. Going from high to low and so forth.

I am now on Lamictal, an anti convulsant medication used for epilepsy which has proved to have mood stabilising effects. It seems to work well for the depression side. It is quite tolerable and no side effects. It is the prima donna of mood stabilisers. Google it.

All the best with your search for a happier life.

ntlbell

No advice for you but I thought you would enjoy reading this

http://www.dervala.net/archives/000873.html

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

agree with NESF on this re "Mood stabilisers are a lot "nicer" to take than anti-depressants in my experience (ie I've been on high doses of both over the years). There are less side effects and less problems coming down off them."

Was on Lithium (anti-depressant), now on Lexapro (a mood stabiliser), and think it is a lot healthier... just my 2c

econ08

I was reading through this tread and I thought I would respond. There is a lot of people recommending CBT and counselling for mood disorders. There is a few things important to remember about this.

First, CBT has been shown to be effective for unipolar depression. However, it is no more effective than your average antidepressant. It is not some wonderful miracle cure.

CBT is ineffective as a primary treatment for mood swings/ bipolar disorder. Without mood stabilising medication CBT/ counselling will have no effect on the course of bipolar mood disorder.

Once the patients mood has been stabilised with medication CBT can be helpful in improving quality of life/ social rythm etc.

Genetic twin studies have shown bipolar disorder to be between 70-80% genetic. It has the same rate of heritability as Type 2 diabetes. Unipolar depression has is less heritable at about 45%.

Bipolar disorder is primarily a biological illness and getting well and staying well is essentially at matter of taking the medication.

I think its important that sufferers know this.

LegacyUser

My best friend is Bi-polar.

I've been through 3 episodes with him where he was hospitalised. This time we caught it just in time.

He used to stop taking his medication as he felt that he wasn't himself on it. But inevitably, he'd then go off the rails after about 2/3 years.

He has a new nowdifferent pills which work a lot better for him and he's fine. Plus, we know the telltale signs when he's about to go off on one.

It's no issue to me or to anyone else that he's bi-polar - it can be tough to deal with during the mania but you know that in a few weeks he;ll be back to his normal self.

Seems to me that it's very necessary to take care of yourself and yoga and meditation complement the pills. Also, keeping an eye on the hours you sleep.

I've read recently that certain fish oils are good for keeping the brain balanced - think it was omega 3 or omega 6. worth checking that out.