Asked her religion in a Job questionaire.. legal?

zod

Northern Irish company ( from the 6 counties ) recruiting in the South for a position in the South ( border county )

I was helping a girl fill out the job questionaire. When on the last page the following was printed :

Are you a member of the Catholic Community Yes/No
Are you a member of the Protestant Community Yes/No
I am a member of neither community Yes/No

I was flabergasted .. is this allowed in the Republic?

billy the squid

Arent bodies like the PSNI required to attain a certain protestant/catholic ratio? It could be more a case of positive discrimination me thinks.

It also might be a case of the company not bothering to have a separate form for recruiting in the south, and are using the northern Ireland version of the form.

what you could do is get her to ring up the company and ask them why the answer to this question is relevant to the position.

zod

billy the squid wrote:

Arent bodies like the PSNI required to attain a certain protestant/catholic ratio? It could be more a case of positive discrimination me thinks. .

What have the PSNI got to do with the Republic ?

billy the squid wrote:

It also might be a case of the company not bothering to have a separate form for recruiting in the south, and are using the northern Ireland version of the form.

So is it legal ??

murphaph

Well it's certainly not legal to discriminate based on your friend's answer. I don't know if it's legal to ask though.

The likes of the PSNI (not hat they have anything to do with this) had to have special legislation passed in Westminster to allow positive discrimination-any old company can't just start discriminating in the same manner-that'd be a legal minefield for any such company.

Interesting one though.

Maskhadov

I think it is legal.. they have to get the body count in for statistics and government policy for 50/50 recrutiing

snappieT

I saw this on a application to work in River Island in Grafton Street yesterday. It was marked as an optional question, and they pointed out it was only for statistical purposes, just so they can say they have a representative proportion or whatever...

zod

Maskhadov wrote:

I think it is legal.. they have to get the body count in for statistics and government policy for 50/50 recrutiing

Yes I believe thats true.. in the NORTH.

Hydroquinone

Maskhadov wrote:

they have to get the body count in for statistics and government policy for 50/50 recrutiing

Yep, that's true.
Companies with a workforce above a certain number of employees that don't have the proper 50/50 split on Northern Ireland get into trouble from the Equality Commission in NI.
So as was said, if this is a NI company recruiting for jobs in the Republic, they must be using the same forms they use in NI.
I don't know if it's legal to ask for that information here, but I doubt it.

mike65

I'd leave that section blank and if they query it your friend should say she's a Jedi.

Mike.

Richard

Hydroquinone wrote:

Yep, that's true.
Companies with a workforce above a certain number of employees that don't have the proper 50/50 split on Northern Ireland get into trouble from the Equality Commission in NI.

The company shouldn't have a 50/50 split, it should either reflect the area in which it operates, or, for a provincewide company, NI as a whole.

It is on a seperate page because it is seperated from the application form proper and is not used to make the appointment. It *is* used, however to show how well the company is attracting applicants from across the divide. You don't have to answer.

The "positive discrimination" for police recruitment is a different issue.

In conclusion, it probably shouldn't have been included as part of the form - presumably a mistake.

zod

I'm going to say this again so theres NO confusion !

This girl is applying for a job to work in the REPUBLIC OF IRELAND, IN THE SOUTH.

The last I heard the PSNI or the Equality Commission in NI have no duristiction down here!

So is it LEGAL for a foreign company to ask your religion in a job questionaire.

bonkey

mike65 wrote:

I'd leave that section blank

But that doesn't answer the question as to whether or not its even legal in the Republic to have those questions on a job application form.

and if they query it your friend should say she's a Jedi.

Which wouldnt' explain why it was blank, given that there is an option to say "I am a member of neither community".

jc

bonkey

zod wrote:

So is it LEGAL for a foreign company to ask your religion in a job questionaire.

My guess would be that yes, it is legal, but that they cannot actually use the answer supplied - or a refusal to supply an answer - in their employment determination.

There's a difference between asking a question and discriminating based on the answer. As far as I'm aware, the laws in the Republic are based around the latter, not the former.

jc

zod

bonkey wrote:

There's a difference between asking a question and discriminating based on the answer. As far as I'm aware, the laws in the Republic are based around the latter, not the former.
jc

Are they ? So companies are allowed to ask things like colour of skin, age, number of penalty points etc. as they claim not to be using the info for job determination.

Job adverts could be like this

"Are you Polish*?
bar man wanted
great pay and conditions
Ph .."


*we are also doing a poll on the number Polish who apply for this position for statistical puposes

mike65

bonkey wrote:

But that doesn't answer the question as to whether or not its even legal in the Republic to have those questions on a job application form.


Which wouldnt' explain why it was blank, given that there is an option to say "I am a member of neither community".

jc

ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz bank holiday weekend pedant

Mike.

lawhec

The question probably stems from the fact that in the north, the question is regulary asked with job application forms. However the question itself should be on a seperate form from the job application and should not have the applicants name on this form - at the most there might be a ref. number linked to the application otherwise its anonymous and may even be sent in a seperate envelope to the application. This is done to ensure equal opportunity monitoring here.

Its question of need or even legality in the Republic though I don't know about. I would say that they're asking the question for the same reasons as up here, simply for monitoring. They would be in deep **** however if it were to prove that the question involved was used to decide wherever a person was suitable for the job.

mike65

Just a thought - should'nt this really be in Work rather than politics?

Mike.

bonkey

mike65 wrote:

ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz bank holiday weekend pedant

No no. You misunderstand.

Its a case of "not getting a bank holiday cause of where I live" pedantry.



jc

bonkey

zod wrote:

Are they ?

I don't know. I did say it was my guess.

So companies are allowed to ask things like colour of skin, age, number of penalty points etc. as they claim not to be using the info for job determination.

No. Its as long as they are able to prove, upon legal challenge, that they are not using the information. Anyone can claim whatever they like, but court cases tend not to rely solely on what people claim they did.

Job adverts could be like this

"Are you Polish*?
bar man wanted
great pay and conditions
Ph .."

*we are also doing a poll on the number Polish who apply for this position for statistical puposes

They could indeed.

And in a resultant court-case, the question would presumably be whether or not this was an honest declaration of intent, or a misleading statement (a lie!) designed to give an illegal activity a cover of respectability.

It should also at least partly hinge on the employer proving that they were carrying out the claimed survey, ideally with an accompanying clarification as to why they were doing so.

jc

Victor

Northern Correspondent wrote:

The question probably stems from the fact that in the north, the question is regulary asked with job application forms. However the question itself should be on a seperate form from the job application and should not have the applicants name on this form

This is the essessence of a Labour Court case against a government department who asked people, on a separate form, questions based on equality legislation (age, gender, disability, single / married ..., etc.) and it was held that such questions were legal for the purpose of anonymous statistical comparision of applicants and appointments.

Talliesin

It is not only legal, but compulsory (for companies over a certain size).

If the company only hires people from one community, and then claims that this was because they only got good applicants from that community that claim can be proven or disproven on the basis of the statistics about applicants.

The forms are not looked at by the company themselves.

Syth

zod wrote:

number of penalty points

Off topic a bit, but the number of penalty points is not covered by the Equality Act, and in my opinion might be highly relevant to the job. You don't want to hire someone as a taxi driver if they have got 10 penalty points. By tomorrow they could be off the roads.

zod

Talliesin wrote:

It is not only legal, but compulsory (for companies over a certain size).

Oh its now compulsary for big companies in the REPUBLIC OF IRELAND to ask your religion in a job application :rolleyes:

zod

Syth wrote:

Off topic a bit, but the number of penalty points is not covered by the Equality Act, and in my opinion might be highly relevant to the job. You don't want to hire someone as a taxi driver if they have got 10 penalty points. By tomorrow they could be off the roads.

And if I was applying to be a priest I would expect to be asked my religion.. so what exactly is your point?

whiskeyman

I dont see what the fuss is.
It's an inclusion due to statistics.
Obviously, the company is question (based in the North) uses this as a procedure there, so it's just a "spill-over" of it here.

It's only illegal if your mate doesnt get the job on the basis of his/her religion.

Do you get so worked up when the census comes out?

zod

whiskeyman wrote:

I dont see what the fuss is.
It's an inclusion due to statistics.
Obviously, the company is question (based in the North) uses this as a procedure there, so it's just a "spill-over" of it here.?

I asked if it was legal in the Republic thats all. We all know why it's done in the North but thats irrelevant.

I'm certain that many companies do things in other countries that they would like to spill over into here - take the Turkish company Gama as an extreme example.

whiskeyman wrote:

It's only illegal if your mate doesnt get the job on the basis of his/her religion.

Is that your opinion or is it fact?

whiskeyman wrote:

Do you get so worked up when the census comes out.?

If the census people were interviewing me for a job at the time - maybe. Like I said I just asked if it was legal.

whiskeyman

zod wrote:

Is that your opinion or is it fact?

Fact - It's enforced in the Employment Equality Act (1998).
There are some exceptions though... e.g. for religious institutions.

zod wrote:

Like I said I just asked if it was legal.

Answer = Yes.
You also mention you were "flabergasted" and the little angry icon in the thread title suggests more...

Not only is it legal, but there should be no worry as to why its included whether it be here or anywhere else in the world.

zod

whiskeyman wrote:

Answer = Yes.
Not only is it legal, but there should be no worry as to why its included whether it be here or anywhere else in the world.

I think your wrong, although I can't be sure - I don't know the law.

I personally think that it is worrrisome that a company can ask personal questions on anything like religion etc in a job questionaire purely for some statistical or other arbitrary reason.

I'd have no problem with an anonymous one that you were asked to send in seperately. People who are applying for a job are unlikely to question the legality of such questions as they would feel that questioning it might reflect badly on them. I just think that it's a bad place to start asking personal questions.

Our man in Havana

Simple, just don't answer the question.

Trojan

Why not answer it 6 times?

Yes, I am a member of the Protestant Community.
Yes, I am a member of the Catholic Community.
Yes, I am a member of neither Community.
No, I am not a member of the Protestant Community.
No, I am not a member of the Catholic Community.
No, I am not a member of neither Community.

bonkey

zod wrote:

I personally think that it is worrrisome that a company can ask personal questions on anything like religion etc in a job questionaire purely for some statistical or other arbitrary reason.

Of course, if they just made assumptions on it based on your address.....

People who are applying for a job are unlikely to question the legality of such questions as they would feel that questioning it might reflect badly on them.

If they think the question might be illegal, one has to ask why they still would want to work for the company...

jc

Elmo

I personally don't like the fact that many Application forms are asking alot of personnel questions. IMO if for satistical reasons you what to know what religion, sexuality, race, nationality, marital status etc of your work force you should ask them to take a secret survey once they have employed them.

mountainyman

Yes it is legal and Zod Northern Ireland is not a foreign country.

I repeat it is legal.

Our man in Havana

mountainyman wrote:

Yes it is legal and Zod Northern Ireland is not a foreign country.

Yes Northern Ireland is a foreign country. Sorry to upset the shinners on this board.

Victor

Bond-007 wrote:

Yes Northern Ireland is a foreign country.

A different country, but not "foreign" - by treaty.

Richard

Victor wrote:

A different country, but not "foreign" - by treaty.

True - and the UK does not consider ROI foreign either.

mountainyman

A different jurisdiction but always Ireland; that's a bit irrelevant anyway.

Neither equality act explicitly mentions religion (I could be wrong on that).
However I am sure that if there was religious _discrimination_ the chain would be in trouble.

You do have to have an anti discrimiantion policy if y ou Ask those questions but I am sure that the company has one.

It is all in the relevant acts, what they are really concerned about is gender.

patzer117

you know i'm just thinking this would be a great way for a company to recruit people - ask them a question like this, but maybe a little less controversial. those that complain, well no matter what the result is then they wouldn't be considered, and those that don't, and who are easy going, automatically get a step further towards getting the job no matter what they answer. completely illegal i know, but the way they answer, and what they get all fussed up over really would show people's true colours and their personalities.

patzer

The Clown Man

A quick phone call will tell you whether it is legal or not. (ODEI)

I don't think it is.

Also, it won't make any difference to your friend unless s/he has actually been refused the job and can somehow show (through statistics or otherwise) that her answer to that question was a basis for the refusal. All a successful complaint will do is compel them to change their application form.