Double Axle Trailers

jayok

Folks,

I was hoping you could clarify something for me. If you are towing a double axle trailer with a car, does the car doing the towing need 4WD? My Dad and a few other people I've met seem convinced that this is the case, whereas I cannot seem to find anything about it. It could be a rumour that was started and has now spread into law folklore.

If the car does need 4WD, then why? Tractors and Trucks only drive the rear wheels!

Cheers.

BrianD3

It's just a rumour You can have as many axles on your trailer as you like and tow it with whatever vehicle you like as long as
-you have the correct licence for the trailer/vehicle combo
-you do not exceed the towing capacity of the towing vehicle or the payload capacity of the trailer
-you have brakes on your trailer if it is >750 kg d.g.v.w
-trailer has the correct lights and does not exceed maximum widths, lengths etc.

Funnily enough, I often find that people who believe in the "2 axle rule" completely disregard everything in the list above esp. the bits about towing capacities and licences. :rolleyes:

Squirrel

jayok wrote:

Folks,

I was hoping you could clarify something for me. If you are towing a double axle trailer with a car, does the car doing the towing need 4WD? My Dad and a few other people I've met seem convinced that this is the case, whereas I cannot seem to find anything about it. It could be a rumour that was started and has now spread into law folklore.

If the car does need 4WD, then why? Tractors and Trucks only drive the rear wheels!

Cheers.

I don't really get ya, do you mean it just needs it or is it a legal requirement? I've never heard that one before but I'll ask around

Edit: BrianD3 answered that

jayok

Cheers for clearing that BrianD3, I knew about the licensing requirements and all the other stuff - just that "2 axle" rule. Now for the task of re-educating my Dad!

Alfasudcrazy

I have often towed over cars from the UK in my front wheel drive Caddy van on my double axle trailer with no problems. I would obviously prefer a Mitsubishi Pajero short wheel base van though but I can't afford one.:(

Perhaps your Dad is well aware that its not necessary to have a Jeep to tow a double axle trailer but has to make it look that way to your mam who would not know the difference so he can get one ??:D

Cucullan

I think I heard somewhere that to tow a horsebox your car has to be at least a 2.0l but thats not the case with a twin axle trailer. Don't quote me on that though

Alfasudcrazy

I once went to a traffic accident where a Nissan sunny (94 vintage) was towing a cattle box (double axle) and when it braked coming up to a junction the cattle box simply lifted the rear of the car sending the car and trailer into a jack knife. The trailer overturned and the (2 bulls) were thrown out and injured - not a pretty sight and I felt sorry for the bulls - but they lived to fight another day at least - so small light cars are no good for heavy trailers.;)

murphaph

Alfasudcrazy wrote:

I once went to a traffic accident where a Nissan sunny (94 vintage) was towing a cattle box (double axle) and when it braked coming up to a junction the cattle box simply lifted the rear of the car sending the car and trailer into a jack knife. The trailer overturned and the (2 bulls) were thrown out and injured - not a pretty sight and I felt sorry for the bulls - but they lived to fight another day at least - so small light cars are no good for heavy trailers.;)

Unless you can persuade some fat people to sit in the back seat!

AMurphy

No, of course not.
I hauled the minivan from LA on a twin axle transported, pulled by a 2WD truck.


Hauling a little BobCat on a twinwheel today behind a F250, 2WD, with a 4sp Automatic tranny. However, both these trailers had 4 wheel braking.

Rabies

Cucullan wrote:

I think I heard somewhere that to tow a horsebox your car has to be at least a 2.0l but thats not the case with a twin axle trailer. Don't quote me on that though

All horse boxes are twin axle. There is no engine size requirment to pull a horse box, but I would reccomend at least a 2L. Some of my friends use old 1.6L Primeras to do the job. Not the best for long hauls, but local runs are ok.
I think to pull a double box with 2 horses a 2.5-3L jeep should be used. Main reason is if your going across a field to out door shows or hunting, 4x4 is a huge advantage along with the ground clearance.

jayok

Perhaps your Dad is well aware that its not necessary to have a Jeep to tow a double axle trailer but has to make it look that way to your mam who would not know the difference so he can get one ??

Hmmm... maybe that's his plan, he does seem to be pushing the notion a little hard!

I suppose though in fairness, the 4WD, min 2 litre recommendations are really just that good recommendations. I would imagine that a RWD car would be better again than a FWD when towing as the a portion of the weight of the trailer will bear down on the rear wheels and create better traction. So why have 2WD when you can have 4WD?

I would imagine that other factors should be considered as well, such as the rear wheel would be better with disc rather than drum brakes. Ok, 90% of braking comes from the front under normal conditions but with a trailer I would imagine that there would be greater dependancy on the rear brakes.

maidhc

The power of the car or its brakes are not all that relevant once the tralier has good brakes when required by law.

A rear wheel drive car will be far better for towing however (i dont see any circumstances where you would need 4wd). I have often pulled 14-16 tons with a tractor, and never even contemplated engaging the 4wd, except on soft surfaces.

I once landed a corolla in a ditch going up a hill with a heavy trailer. The road was slippy, the front wheels started skidding, and the front of the car just swung into the ditch.

AMurphy

Here we go.

stratos

I hope that alfasud on the trailer mates with the van succesfully !

prospect

I had been told this numerous times also. So I e-mailed the Vehicle Standards Division of the Dept. Of Transport. Here is their reply:

Dear Mr. Prospect,

I refer to your e-mail of 9 August concerning trailers.

Road traffic law in relation to the drawing of trailers by motor vehicles is set out in Part 4 of the Road Traffic (Construction and Use of Vehicles) Regulations 2003 (S.I. No. 5 of 2003). A copy of these Regulations is available on the Department's website from the following link:-

http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=6618&lang=ENG&loc=1864

The Regulations contain no specific prohibition on the drawing of a trailer by a two wheel drive vehicle. However, the Department would recommend that the towing capacity of the vehicle is specified as sufficient by the manufacturer for the weight of the trailer plus its contents.

Information regarding the appropriate driving licence required to tow certain types of trailers is available under the Driver Licensing section of our website from the following link:-

http://www.transport.ie/roads/licensing/index.asp?lang=ENG&loc=1233

I hope this information is helpful.
Yours sincerely,
xxxxxxx xxxxxxx
Executive Officer
Vehicle Standards & Motor Insurance Division

Silvera

Alfasudcrazy wrote:

I have often towed over cars from the UK in my front wheel drive Caddy van on my double axle trailer with no problems. I would obviously prefer a Mitsubishi Pajero short wheel base van though but I can't afford one.:(

Have you ever checked your unaden, g.v.w, combination weights, etc Alfa ?
I somehow doubt you combination complies with the weight rules!


Also re trailers .....
In the UK all trailers manufactured after a certain year, MUST have a plate attached detailing unladen weight, g.v.weights, etc in order to comply with the law. (i.e. this would exclude 'homemade' trailers).

I'd reckon if anybody in Ireland had an insurance claim involving a 'homemade' trailer, the insurance company could use this as an excuse to get out of paying!

BrianD3

Silvera wrote:

Have you ever checked your unaden, g.v.w, combination weights, etc Alfa ?
I somehow doubt you combination complies with the weight rules!

I was thinking the same I'd just wonder about towing capacities of the VW Caddy. Not so much with an Alfasud on the trailer but with something heavier like say, a Daimler

But from the email posted by prospect it looks like towing weights might just be advisory. If this is true then you could legally tow as heavy a trailer as you want within your licence category

However, the Department would recommend that the towing capacity of the vehicle is specified as sufficient by the manufacturer for the weight of the trailer plus its contents.

Would the Dept recommend that someone didn't use a Fiesta diesel to tow an Ifor Williams triple axle loaded with a tonne of blocks?

Or would said Fiesta driver be breaking any laws if he did so?

maidhc

There is no reason why law of negligence, and careless/dangerous driving offences do not apply to situation where people act silly with the equipment they chose.

Thus if you have an accident with a caddy van pulling an 8 ton JCB there will be issues, while if it is an alfa it is unlikely anything will happen. I dont think there is any issue here, since no one is really going to try pulling a JCB with a Caddy, nor will they in their right minds hitch a loaded triple axle trailer to a fiesta. Apart from any safety issue, you wont get all that far. If you do tow that 8 ton JCB down a hill, it is the brakes on the trailer will matter, not the size of the vehicle pulling it.

Those who do a lot of towing are going to want a decent sized car/Jeep/Tractor/Lorry depending on their requirments.

AMurphy

Silvera wrote:

.....

I'd reckon if anybody in Ireland had an insurance claim involving a 'homemade' trailer, the insurance company could use this as an excuse to get out of paying!

probably would and with good cause. many homemade trailers are a pile of scrap.
That aside, overloading is a way of life in ROI, both for trailers and fixed bodies.

Alfas trailer looks pretty deacent by general standards, but could be improved, I think.
Lights are forward of the back end. thus it is possible for someone to fail to see one of the lights and misjudge where the actual end is. I'd try add additional light at the very end.
At least here are sfety reflectors, but some lights may be better.

The lights on the mudguards.
Good, but I have found some specimens of this type of lamp often difficult to see against the lights of an oncoming car, they are too small and the bulbs too weak in many cases. Need at least 5W. Be a nice feature if they could also flash/indicate.
They also get stepped on, kicked, etc, protect with a wire cage.

A side/forward facing indicator relay lamp like on the wings of VW/BMW are very useful on the sides of a long trailer like this one and can be wired to be on with the sidelights and still blink with the indicators, kind of a cute touch.

No reversing lamps, no back up beeper I suppose.

It's a long trailer, do the lights suffer from the traditional, long length, small diameter wire, voltage drop, so teh bulbs are tad dim anyway, and when the brakes or indicators are on the side lights dim in sympathy?.

Are there safety brakeaway chains on the hitch,
does it have a break away safety brake
And is the Alfa chained down?.

=========

on the law side, I see no reason why a cop could not stop and ticked anyone for overloading, either a trailer, car or both. Just never done that's all.

On that digger I had rented. the rental place would not let me take it unless I have a suitable vehicle, SUV, F150 min with a Cat III hitch + lights.

Two items to consider on towing, one is tang dead weight and the other is drawing load. a perfectly balanced load would have little tang weight.
but go forward or rearward from center and you could be sinking or lifting the rear.

I was a picture of a RR that had skidded off a trailer, where the car was not chained down properly.

maidhc

I disagree about many homemade traliers being scrap. Some are pretty bad alright, but many are better than anything Nugent would make, not to mention the light excuses of things from Ifor Williams.

The gardai often stop overweight trucks (i.e. those ones with the two rear tyres scrubbing off eachother), but there does have to be a lot of leeway since few people (or businesses) have a weighbridge. The issue becomes more pertinent if you crash and are making insurance claims etc.

I dont think overloading of trailers or dump trucks on tractors (I dont know enough about trucks) is an issue here. Not that many people tow heavy loads with cars, and most people operating out of building sites have the right gear.

AMurphy

Hmmm, maybe a few have wised up since my last observation.
Oh. the tyres could also scrub if underinflated.

I have no experience with the manufacturers you mention. However I have seen one such trailer reduced to a state of scrap by overloading and general abuse, and one such horse box mainteined in prestine condition, so I'll have to assume, look to the owner, not the item itself.

Meanwhile you provide definitions for the following conditions;

Some I see as overloading of the vehicle, so as overloading of the road beneath the vehicle or just not paying attention to safety, and in the end it does not matter, you the road going public pay for the damage caused ultimately.

From observations;
When a truck goes by the ground trembles.
A load of blocks on a truck, the wheels of which have actually penetrated the road (tarred to Co. Co. specification) and is now sitting on its axles.
The wheel bolts of the vehicle, one tractor, one truck, have sheared off and it's resting on the wheel hub.
Trailer lifted the rear wheels of the tractor off the ground, due to shifted load.
The big bale on the front loader lifted the rear wheel off the ground on rounding a turn.... though I'd be rescuing someone on that event.
The trailer drawbar bent down to the ground
Truck with obviously broken springs. Not to mention the spring bits are leathal on the highway, they are excellent for penetrating tyres and windows.
Top of HiMac sitting on the road, cause the jib hit a railway bridge (Limerick city). Driver probably suffered several broken ribs, due to the sudden stop.
HiMac slipped off low-loader trailer on rounding a turn, cause it was not chained on. Patrickswell I think.
Wet cement spewing from the back of the mixer bit, twice.
The road outside a RoadStone quarry (Co Wicklow) site resembles a minefield, it is impossible to pass without encountering large waterfilled holes.
Hay bales stacked so high they trail in the trees overhead sending one down in front of me.
Loose trailer wheel hubs obviously caused by abuse, lack of grease, overloading or all of the above.
Missing hub 'cause the welds broke.
Towable, Concrete mixer, being conveyed inside a "white van", with no restraints, takes off and runs over the driver in an emergency braking situation.

I would put building site trucks down as among the culprits; between dragging soil and dirt onto the road, not cleaning it up after them and stones jammed between the tyres, ready to fly off when any appreciable speed is achieved.

and finally my own brother, missing horse box; 'cause the clevis or ball or both had worn and it popped off. Fortunately it only impaled itself in the opposite fence and not in the front of an oncoming vehicle, pedestrian, etc.

Capt'n Midnight

Cucullan wrote:

I think I heard somewhere that to tow a horsebox your car has to be at least a 2.0l but thats not the case with a twin axle trailer. Don't quote me on that though

How heavy can a horse get ?
How heavy does a horse box need to be to hold the heaviest horse it is designed for.
What is the maximum design gross weight of the horse box and horse ?

BrianD3

AMurphy wrote:

Hmmm, maybe a few have wised up since my last observation.

Don't think so, obvious overloading and general stupidity is still widespread over here. 99% of trailers that I see don't even have proper lights.. Not an exaggeration - I am astounded when i see a trailer with a full set of working lights.

Note to farmers and digger contractors - turning on backward-facing white floodlights on the roof of your tractor doesn't make up for the fact that you have no working tail lights or indicators on the back of your tractor or trailer. Of course I never see the Gardai pulling these morons over.

As for overloading that I've seen: how about 12 round bales on a half collapsed trailer being pulled by a Toyota Hilux.

maidhc

BrianD3 wrote:

Don't think so, obvious overloading and general stupidity is still widespread over here. 99% of trailers that I see don't even have proper lights.. Not an exaggeration - I am astounded when i see a trailer with a full set of working lights.

Judge Patwell (East Cork) has made this issue his pet subject to some degree. Speaking as someone who drives a tractor on the road regularly (I'm one of those rare drivers who lets cars overtake ), it is too much of a risk to drive without lights on a tralier. The gardaí arent really the issue, it is the crap that would arise if you squashed a fiesta.

AMurphy

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

How heavy can a horse get ?
How heavy does a horse box need to be to hold the heaviest horse it is designed for.
What is the maximum design gross weight of the horse box and horse ?

How about 5;

see here

Do you think this would be safe behind a hi-lux, Pajero or Landbruiser?

story time;
I rented a small generater some time back, small enought to two behind the little Toy 2WD 1/2 ton truck.
This little one, no brakes on it.
Anyway, scooting down the highway about 55mph or so and just as I was making the exit the traffic backed up, so I have to stop quickly. That was fine, truck has excellent brakes....except with the truck wheels locking up and the load was still pushing me onwards. Not a good feeling.

A friend just returned from, Wyoming I think, last weekend were he underwent a harrowing event. He and a freind were towing a trailer with 6 ATV's on it, 3 on bottom, 3 on the second story. Towing with a Ford 350 truck. Doing about 60mph down a 2 way undivided highway and a large 18wheeler coming the opposite direction about 60mph also, blew them completely over. Nodody killed, but the roof of the truck was down to the top of the seats and steering wheel. So you think big and powerful is safe?. think again. I'll see if I can get a photo or two from him.
trailer was something like that Horsebox I believe.


I see the rear facing white light on trucks and trailers a lot in Asia. It's not a bad idea IF the wattage is kept low and aimed into the object being towed, not into the road, up in trees, etc. 35W tractor (ATV) lights are available that would work. 55/100W Fog/driving lamps are a bit much.
and as you indicated, no substitute for missing primary lights anyway.

however better than the Van towing a baler, which stuck outside the van by about 18" and nearly nailed me as I went past in the opposite direction.
My MiL has been hit by a Christmas tree stickiing out of a load while traveling. Removed the wingmirror.

Which reminds me, guys sticking long boards out the rear side windows of cars are in danger of beheading cyclists. I see that done a lot here.
And I have nto yet seen the folded matrass tied on roof, while flying down the highway in ROI yet....

JohnBoy

saw a matress, in a giant plastic bag on the roof of a pajero sport recently, the bag was open at the front and the whole lot was tied down with bungees.

the bag would fill with air at speed and actually levitate the matress, it was floating above the vehicle, scary

MercMad

Wasn't there footage on one of those ITV programmes where the motorway cops were filming a Discovery towing a caravan which started to shimmy quite badly, the driver tried to slow down, which made things worse and then the caravan flipped taking the Landie with it, left it spinning on its roof in the middle of the road like a toy car !

I had one of those big Volvo BM earth movers pull out of a site onto the road in front of me and it had a red brick stuck between its rear double tyres, which inevitably flew out with the inertia and up it went....................and came straight through my windscreen ! I had now where to go and I just knew it would hit me. The whole screen went and off course the driver of the yoke was oblivious and kept going. I couln't see the reg for all the crap on it !

Are all double axle trailers braked ? I towed a big Granada 2.9 on a double axle trailer with a Vectra. I had about 5 Gardai pushing the Granada onto the trailer and as it entered the ramp we saw the nose go down. We looked and saw the rear wheels of the Vectra about 18" off the ground !! It was like a seesaw. The lads all sat into the boot of the Vectra and down it came, then it was a quick dash to push the Granada on further before the rear of the Vecxtra rose up again !

That was in the old days in Cavan, middle of the night, the Vectra was a 1.7deisel, normally aspirated, and BOY was that a slow drive home ! Oh and we didn't shackle the Ford down.........it bounced closer to us as we drove home with the rear of the Vectra bottoming out !

I learned my lesson after that and always pay very close attention to towing nowdays. Once towed a Dodge Charger on a trailer with a Range Rover V8, which hardly moved with the weight. It was cool to look in the mirror and see this Charger looming down on you.............very "Bullitt" style !

AMurphy

here's a few funny ones;
http://www.swapmeetdave.com/Humor/Workshop/Overload.htm

http://www.funnyhub.com/pictures/page.cgi/overloaded-car

eggs

AMurphy

Thought I'd get some samples of truck trailer wire for comparison;

In teh photo attached there are 2 samples. The on eon the right is used on trucks, the outer diameter is 17mm, and teh white wire (Ground), which is larger than any of the other 6 is 3.5mm in diameter. the other wires are about 3.0mm diameter.

In the other sample, the outer diameter is 15mm, and the white (Ground) is ~3.0mm.

The reason the ground is a size larger is irrespective of the source, there is only one ground return for all the combined sources, hence it has to be larger to carry the combined currents.

Also, you will note the RH sample has finer wires, about 50 per bundle, wereas the left sample has about 20~25/bundle.
Thus the RH sample is better where flexing is required, just like your kettle flex.
The LH sample is good for fixed or stationaly wiring, and the RH sample for connecting between trailer and vehicle.
Also the RH sample has an insulation type that does not crack when temps go below freezing.

the LH Sample is part number WT701 from Waytek.com, not sure of the exact source of the RH sample, other than I got it in a truck parts depot.

The ground wire in both of these samples will barely fit in the hole in the trailer connector available in ROI. Price is about $1.50 ~ $2.00 per foot.

red bull

Do 4 wheel trailers have to have brakes on 4 wheels to be legal now ?