Parents Associations

Kildrought

Anyone involved with Parents associations, or setting them up? Just looking for feedback; are they worthwhile? (from a parent or teacher's perspective, do they actually acomplish anything, how do you feel the PA is viewed by the Board of Management/ parents/ whoever? What does your PA actually do that makes the school a better place to be or improves things for other parents/pupils or teachers?

ArthurDent

Kildrought,

not involved in a PA, but one was set up last year (PTA btw, not PA). It seems to be running well, by all accounts. Parents are very involved in sourcing extracurricular activities and have organised lots of classes outside of school hours. they are also involved in looking for a solution to traffic managment problems. The one thing they definitely did not want to be was just a fundraising committee and so a seperate committee to do this is up and running in the school. They are also involved in drafting policies such as healthy eating, SPHE, dignity and respect.

Kildrought

Thanks for that Arthur; current thinking in my kids school seems to be that it is very much a parents association & not parent-teacher association.

We seem to be getting more grief than you would expect in setting this up; so I was wondering how people found the process elsewhere.

ArthurDent

Kildrought wrote:

Thanks for that Arthur; current thinking in my kids school seems to be that it is very much a parents association & not parent-teacher association.

We seem to be getting more grief than you would expect in setting this up; so I was wondering how people found the process elsewhere.

Kildrought, who is giving you the grief? Principal/teachers? If so you can remind them that it is part of the remit of a School BOM to facilitate the setting up of a PA or PTA (and the choice of which is down to the Parents only), I'm at work now, but will find relevant bit of legislation when I get home, if you need it. Have you contacted the NPC they run courses and as far as I know there are some coming up in Nov.

Best of luck

ArthurDent

Here's the link i promised


Parents' Associations
Where to apply
Information
Parents have a legal right to establish a parents' association. Membership must be open to all parents in the school.

A parents' association must promote the interests of the students in a school in co-operation with the Board of Management, the principal and teachers. The association may

Advise the principal and board on any matter affecting the school
Adopt a programme of activities that will promote the involvement of parents.
The Board of Management must promote contact between the school, the parents and the community and must give reasonable help to a parents' association in its formation and its activities.

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/education/primary_education/parents_and_education.html

Kildrought

Thanks for that. We have some stuff from the NPC alright and have been meeting etc., for a while. I'm planning to attend some of their workshops.

BOM seem to think that any communication should only be done through them - they seem to have a problem with any other line of communication to/from parent body.

I suspect we will end up with several members of our BOM also sitting on the PA committee; doesn't really provide an alternative point of view.

I suppose I'm looking for reasons as to

a) how/why I can persuade other parents that an 'independent' (for want of a better expression) PA is worth having; otherwise (in my view) it just becomes the BOM by proxy. and

b) persuade the BOM that we can do useful stuff for the school! As well as provide a channel of communication to and from parents.

I strongly suspect the BOM is out of touch with how parents feel about many issues; they don't ask so they don't get to find out.

If a parent wants an issue raised at BOM level via a parents rep, they have to put it in writing; that can be quite intimidating for a start off and also you feel a bit silly writing an entire letter about the fact that by Thursday there isn't enough paper left in the girls toilets and please could you do something.

More annoyingly if you do mention the loo paper in the girls toilets (and I am being facetious here, but you get the drift); you are told that you are the only person with this issue (which you know not to be the case!) so therefore the problem is with you!

They don't seem to have grasped the first principle of customer service - for every one person who complains, there are 10 others who feel the same way but won't say anything.

(sigh!) sorry whinge over, be glad to hear from anyone else with personal experiences.

thanks

ArthurDent

Kildrought

Have you spoken to the parents reps on the BOM about facilitating a PA (it's part of their role, so don't feel bad about asking them).

There are areas that are a BOM's domain and there are others that are very definitely in a PA's remit, I guess you may have a battle trying to convince the BOM this. Who do you view as more approachable the principal or the chairperson - whichever is better - ask to meet them (perhaps withthe parents reps, if they are good) and remind them (as politely as possible) that its a parents right to have a PA and they MUST facilitate this.

Try to sell them on the positives of a PA and show you are aware of the areas that a PA can have a role in and those that it has no role in (I think this is why some BOMs are anti PA's). The areas that a PA should steer well clear of:
Professional role of teachers (discussions as to a teacher being good/crap at their job - definite no-nos)
Individual issues between 1 parent and 1 teacher (agreed INTO principles on how this is dealt with)
Ethos of school - a matter for BOM and patron

Areas that PA's can have great benefit for school:
Setting up/running extracurricular activities
Setting up of paired reading scheme
Volunteer programme (knitting, cookery, arts, dance etc)
Fundraising (although you really do not want to be seen as just a way of getting money for school)
Providing input on policies (in our school we have asked for parent's input on SPHE, RSE, Dignity and Respect policies lately)

Re members of BOM attending PA meetings- chairperson and principal are entitled to attend ANY meeting in school. Also parents reps are entitled to attend but not hold offices on PA. Usually if working well principal and Chairperson would not attend (as a courtesy we ask our pta to send on the agenda and minutes for their meetings to BOM), usually head of PTA would meet with principal after PTA meeting and let them know of how things are going.

I guess bottom line is that a PA is not going to be very productive without support of BOM, so go on a bit of a charm offensive and try and sell the positives of the idea to either the principal or BOM chairperson.And at the same time remind them of their duty to facilitate one being formed!

Again best of luck

deisemum

Our school has a Parents Association and it works very well.
Having said that it's usually quite difficult to get parents to volunteer each year.

We have 1 teacher, who's the teachers rep. and this is very useful because he/she are able to liaise with the teachers about any general non teaching issues such as ie. the amount of time pupils get to eat their lunch and also for PA to find out what teachers would like PA to fundraise for ie. wet day activities.

Usually one or both of the parents reps on the BOM attend.

Kildrought

thanks for that, we have a separate group for fund raising so I don't expect the PA will organise fund raising though they may supply 'bodies' for support.

on the fund raising subject - what is the feeling wrt what the money raised through cake sales and the like is used for?

in my kids school, about 90% of last years fund raising was used to pay the insurance bill - I thought the capitation grant from the dept of ed. was used (in part at any rate) for this sort of overhead?

ArthurDent

Kildrought

It'd be nice if the capitation grant paid for things like insurance, electricity, phone and gas bills, but from the experience of our school and most of the other BOM people I talk to this just isn't the case. From our schools point of view the gap between what we receive and what it costs to keep the school going has been of the order of €20 -€30k per annum. We ask for "voluntary" contributions, get people to contribute by direct debit (and we claim the tax back), have brown envelope days, run raffles etc. It shouldn't be the situation but unfortunately it is.
So much for free education eh?!

Kildrought

It just gets worse; we did up a notice to update the parents on what we were doing and what was going to happen next and sent it into the school to be circulated.

The principal of the school (with out any reference to the Parents Assoc) has held up the notice for 10 days and has advised that she is not going to send it out for another week!

To my mind this, effectively, is censorship.....:mad:

ArthurDent

Kildrought wrote:

It just gets worse; we did up a notice to update the parents on what we were doing and what was going to happen next and sent it into the school to be circulated.

The principal of the school (with out any reference to the Parents Assoc) has held up the notice for 10 days and has advised that she is not going to send it out for another week!

To my mind this, effectively, is censorship.....:mad:

Sounds like you may have a principal with "issues". What reason did she give for not sending it out?
Going back to previous posts - BOM MUST facilitate the setting up of a PA - if you don't mind copping the flack yourself - send a note from you for the next BOM meeting - or if you'd rather, get the Parent's Reps on the BOM to bring it up.

Besrt of luck and don't be bullied!

Kildrought

Thanks for the reply ArthurDent - am begining to agree with you that there are definitely issues there - thought I was imagining it at first.

The (to me - spurious) reason given by the principal was that the next parents assoc meeting wasn't till Dec - but that was all of one line in a page long update on the work we have done so far and what is going to happen next!

I was only told about this when I rang the school secretary to query as the notice hadn't been sent home in school bags (I was actually ringing to offer to photocopy if that saved her a bit of time).

We have asked the parents rep to make contact with the principal; but I now believe that these are power games being played.

Any advise re what to do with a principal who has 'issues'?!?

ArthurDent

Some principals have a mortal fear of parents tramping all over a school and making a nuisance of themselves (not saying that the will, but just that is what some principals think).

Been involved with BOM for nearly 6 years now and you can come across some principals who haven't moved from when they ruled the school absolutley (with the occasional nod to the PP).

what's the deputy principal in your school like - are they more approachable - can you get them on your side, with promises of a PA that will "solve" a particular problem in the school - maybe library needs to be manned, maybe the PA could arrange a paired reading scheme, maybe they could do cookery - whatever - something positive as a first suggestion.

A lot of teachers are very wary of a PA becoming a bitching session where parents moan about individual teachers and you really need to convince the principal that you understand this is not the role of your PA.

Try and be positive (at first) and show how this can benfit the school, if this apporach isn't working come the heavy and write to the BOm informing them of their duty to facilitate a PA being set up (NPC can be VERY helpful in these situations)

best of luck

Kildrought

Back again!

BOM are trying to exercise a high degree of influence over the PA constitution; to the extent of writing up an entire document and handing it over to us as the constitution we should have.

Primary concern (for me) is that the aims of the Parents Assoc have been re-written, with one important section left out and also the composition of the ctee.

At least two parents have now pulled out as they are concerned that there might be a comeback on their child; which in itself says volumes (to me anyway).

One of the BOM parents reps is basically not interested and the other is pretty weak (in terms of representing the parents rather than the BOM).

Any ideas?

RainyDay

Sounds difficult - What's involved in getting on the BOM itself? Is it time to face them down and confront the specific issues directly?

ArthurDent

Kildrought - think you need to go back to the NPC and look for some support from them. The BOM cannot force a constitution on you as a PA, they are certainly entitled to advise you but cannot demand you do it one way or another.

Rainy Day - re getting involved on a BOM - easier said than done, this is where a patrons power can be easily evident. A BOM is a legaaly comprised unit consisting of 2 patron nominees (including chairperson), the principal,a teachers rep and two parents reps (elected by parent body) and then those 6 get together and nominate 2 "community reps", they are meant to be from the wider community, but in practise tend to be parents who the rest of the BOM know will support them and the schools ethos.

You cannot force the parents reps to resign, even if the parent body has lost confidence in them - mad isn't it! All BOMs run for 4 years - there is approx 18 months left and then new boards will be set up across the country.

A BOM can be dissolved, but only by the Patron or by thr minister of education (not something that happens very often, although the BOM's of both muslim schools were dissolved this year after allegations of financial irregularity and not adhering to curriculum laid down by dept of Education).

ArthurDent

Oh and another thing - Kildrough your point about the Parents reps rperesenting the BOM rather than the parents - believe it or not this is their job. They are meant to represent the BOM at the PA.

Kildrought

Thanks for the replies.

OK, so when on the PA, the BOM parents rep ARE representing the BOM (cos at one of our meetings they said they didn't represent the views of the BOM); but when on the BOM they are supposed to be representing the views of the parents?

Also we have at least four members of the BOM (aside from the parents reps and including the Chair of the BOM) sitting on the PA group; is this normal?

ArthurDent

Kildrought wrote:

Thanks for the replies.

OK, so when on the PA, the BOM parents rep ARE representing the BOM (cos at one of our meetings they said they didn't represent the views of the BOM); but when on the BOM they are supposed to be representing the views of the parents?

Also we have at least four members of the BOM (aside from the parents reps and including the Chair of the BOM) sitting on the PA group; is this normal?

Parents reps on PA represent the BOM, but have NO voting rights. Parents reps on BOM are there to represent parents on the BOM, but not to represent individuals parents views (figure that one out if you can, I've been on BOMs for 6 years now and no one can give me a clear explanation of this, inlcuding the Dept of Education!!!!!!)

Re 4 members of BOM on PA - absolutely not, that's madness. The prinicpal (and chairperson) have a right to attend ANY meeting to do with school, but in general do not. The Parents reps may attend (but have no voting rightds and may not hold an officers position (chair, treasurer or secreatery of PA)).

Who on the bom is attending? other than prinicpal/chair if they are not parents in school they have no right to attend and should be told to sling their hook!

Who is the chair of the PA? whoever it is needs to read the rules of PA associations and stand up for themselves - I know that its hard if you think your kids might suffer because of getting involved, but it just seems like there is a serious case of bullying going on here and if school management are being this unprofessional they need to be brought to task for the sake of all the kids in the school.

PM me if you want to talk in more detail. Best of luck

AD

ArthurDent

Kildrought

meant to send you this link before

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA51Y1998S26.html

defines legally PA and states that after cond=sultation with the PARENT BODY not the BOM a set of rulles for the PA is drawn up-

.—(1) The parents of students of a recognised school may establish, and maintain from among their number, a parents' association for that school and membership of that association shall be open to all parents of students of that school.

(2) A parents' association shall promote the interests of the students in a school in co-operation with the board, Principal, teachers and students of a school and for that purpose may—

(a) advise the Principal or the board on any matter relating to the school and the Principal or board, as the case may be, shall have regard to any such advice, and
(b) adopt a programme of activities which will promote the involvement of parents, in consultation with the Principal, in the operation of the school.
(3) The board shall promote contact between the school, parents of students in that school and the community and shall facilitate and give all reasonable assistance to parents who wish to establish a parents' association and to a parents' association when it is established.

(4) (a) A parents' association shall, following consultation with its members, make rules governing its meetings and the business and conduct of its affairs.



It might be useful for someone to send a note of this to the BOM (also you can always copy the letter to the patron if you think that might speed up your reply!)

Kildrought

thanks for that, looks just like what I want!

Kildrought

Thanks for your support AD, really appreciate it.

The BOM members are also sitting on the ad hoc ctee as they are parents, so we can't really throw them out. But I feel that, in common with the position of the parents reps, anyone holding an officer position on the BOM should not also be able to hold an officer position on the Parents Assoc.

The BOM have stated they have a problem with this. To me is seems an absolutely basic thing to do in order to guarantee some level of independence; other wise you might just as well be the BOM by proxy.

I was interested to read, from the link you gave me that the parents assoc is obliged to comply with the rules of the national organisation (i.e. the NPC); so that will be our primary argument.