WWII is Over

Hagar

A "State of Emergency" was declared in Ireland at the start of WWII. This gave the Govt the right to curtail certain individual rights, pass restrictive legislation etc. It allowed the Govt to short circuit the democratice process. This was expedient in a time of war. Desperate times do indeed call for desperate measures.

Well it's 2005 now, WWII has been over for 60 years. No doubt the Govt found the declared State of Emergency very handy in dealing with certain organizations in recent years but what was the justification for having this Act still in place in 1968 before the recent troubles started?

Is it the Govt's intention to hold on to this means to abuse power indefinitely? Why do they need it? Do they ever intend to repeal the State of Emenrgency and forgo their extra powers? IMHO the Govt are consistantly exceeding their mandate from the people by their retention of extra powers that they should not have in peace time.

When will the people of Ireland recover full true democracy?

black_jack

America has quietly kept it's legislation going for the past 50 years as well, quietly being renewed by presidents (last one I believe was Clinton)

As for this it's certainly not a partisan issue, just about every shade of the politcal spectrum in the country has held office in the past 50 years, with the exception of the Greens, SP, WP (well a few smaller groups) and they've all quietly kept the legislation going.

I'll describe it as Darina Allen legislation in the event of emergency rather than having to draft new legislation and all the mess and fuss heres one we've prepared earlier . Just a handy number to keep on the books should the need arise.

bonkey

Is it the Govt's intention to hold on to this means to abuse power indefinitely?

Which means is that? The declared State of Emergency, or the ability to declare a State of Emergency.

Removing the former whilst leaving the latter in place still leaves the means to abuse power, surely? Removing the latter removes the ability to deal with any new emergency which may arise.

jc

Hagar

I am not trying denying the Govt the power to declare a state of emergency should circumstances warrant it. I'm questioning the govt's refusal to relinquish these extra power when there is no emergency. I don't believe the electorate ever gave them the extra powers the now exercise in an on-going manner.

Sponge Bob

Hagar wrote:

I am not trying denying the Govt the power to declare a state of emergency should circumstances warrant it. I'm questioning the govt's refusal to relinquish these extra power when there is no emergency.

The state of emergency declared in 1939 was lifted in 1976 . It was then reimposed the same day or maybe a day later. You are complaining about the 'new one' which has not yet lasted 30 years

Hagar

Ah well that's all right then isn't it?

Any more detail on the lifting / re-declaration in 1976?
I'm sure I would have remembered something about it.

Looks like you're on to something my boy http://www.iccl.ie/criminalj/emergency/reports.html
It just backs up my case and brings the responsibility for it a bit closer to home.

Sponge Bob

Hagar wrote:

Ah well that's all right then isn't it?

Any more detail on the lifting / re-declaration in 1976?
I'm sure I would have remembered something about it.

Yes. Cooney and Conor Cruise went to the Dáil to declare a state of emergency and were told within the premises that they had to undeclare the 'old one' first, they had some bill or other they wanted to bring in that allowed internment and stuff .

So they did and declared a new emergency within 24 hours.

I am unaware of any qualitative difference between the 'old' and the 'new' state of emergencies save that I refuse to recognise either

Sponge Bob

This is the Bill they wanted to bring in , the Emergency Powers Bill, September 1976 and thereabouts .

Sponge Bob

and here 31/08/1976 . 1 x State of Emergency far ya.

sceptre

Hagar wrote:

IMHO the Govt are consistantly exceeding their mandate from the people

Funnily enough, if I remember rightly (and I'll happily be corrected if I don't as I'm too lazy to look it up), the current Article 28.3.3 of the constitution, from whence the emergency powers legislation is possible, was one of those amendments passed during the transitory period (first amendment IIRC) after the enactment of the constitution during which the government had the power to effect a constitutional amendment without calling a referendum, merely by steering the amendment through both houses of the Oireachtas. Previous to the amendment the government would have had the power to declare a state of emergency (including passing pretty much any legislation they'd care to regardless of what the constitution said elsewhere) only during a war in which the state was an actual and active participant.

So you're really complaining about 1976 legislation enacted under a mandate that only existed in that a government (which was elected) had the power to put in place something that gave them the power to call a state of emergency during a time of conflict in which the state wasn't an active participant, as the constitutional article itself says. Which puts the slightly further spin on it of no government ever having been expressly and directly handed the power by the people to enact such legislation, merely, during a short period, handed the power to give itself the power, which they used (the day after WW2 started).

I'd agree that they really should dump the current annual renewal of the Emergency Powers Act. The major operative part of the Act wasn't renewed on its first anniversary and hence hasn't been in place since 1977 (do a search for the details somewhere) but the remaining rump doesn't have much specific application right now and if such an Act doesn't have current, necessary and specific application I fail to see the current, necessary and specific need for its retention.

Article 28.3.3 makes for some interesting reading for the paranoid. Actually, if anyone out there is truly tinfoil hat paranoid, I'd rather you didn't post here ever after reading it[1]. Seriously.

[1]For anyone who's now newly familiar with 28.3.3 and is shivering slightly, I'll head the paranoia off at the pass by letting you know that in Re Article 26 and the Emergency Powers Bill, 1976 [1977] part of the ruling by the supremes was that while Art 28.3.3 confirmed the right of the government to pass emergency powers legislation, from the point of view of the ordinary punter who wanted to challenge the constitutionality of such legislation it removed that right but left in place personal constitutional rights of testing the legality of what was done supposedly in reliance on such legislation. Subtle distinction but it effectively prevents an actual police state even in the current state of, er, "OMFG, emergency!!"