Civilisation & Death

simu

Do you ever think that civilisation, while not intended for that purpose, functions as a giant cover-up for the existence and inexorability of death? I do.

CerebralCortex

Explain I am feeble minded yet still interestend(i.e. what does inexorably mean).
I mean I feel that life is something to while waiting to die.

simu

Well, try dictionary.com

And for the rest...

Well, civilisation seems to take our minds off death and hide it so well that it seems less final than it might, like thinking ahead of Sunday evening at the start of a weekend. There are people walking around all the time but because you do not know them, you forget that they are constantly disappearing and being replaced by others. And you walk around in bliss until one day, the grim reaper stands before yourself!

That kinda thing...

CerebralCortex

What brought about this thought pattern?
I fits how I see things also.
I now know what inexorably means.

simu

Oh I was at a ceremony yesterday and I see them all as dress rehearsals for funerals. A bit glum, I know!

People frozen in ceremonial photos as their minds will someday be in death.

(But this thread isn't for discussing my thought processes so OT all)!

CerebralCortex

Religions are nothing without community or a civilisation, take away death (in a Christian community anyway) and there is no need for the religion or the community which is bound by it.
Maybe replace religion with "a countries values/morals".

simu

Oh, this was a non-religious ceremony tbh.

DadaKopf

What do you mean by 'civilization'? I've never understood the term, to be honest.

But I definitely think every human being's life is influenced by the inevitable bookending of life with death. Our inevitable confrontation of the ultimate 'limit situation'. Life is defined by 'dread', 'anxiety' of no longer existing.

But also, ultimately by the 'negation' of death. So maybe what you mean is civilisation is the intentional and meaningful negation of personal death, not by creating distractions but making a meaningful imprint on history before you lose the battle of life.

DadaKopf

Or are you actually talking about the purpose of religion?

Hmm, interesting.

Zombrex

simu wrote:

Do you ever think that civilisation, while not intended for that purpose, functions as a giant cover-up for the existence and inexorability of death? I do.

I think "life" takes our mind of death, not necessarily civilisation. Civilisation is just an extention of modern(ish) human life

Sure if we just sat around doing nothing all day we would probably think more about death, but then if we just sat around all day doing nothing we would probably die soon anyway

Humans are a working animal, we are designed mentally and biologically to keep busy. And while being busy we are occupied with what we are doing in the right now.

Sangre

Civilisation makes us focus on death even more than ever.
Before we were too busy surviving to stop and think.

Vangelis

I don't understand anything..

muesli_offire

before what?

simu

Civilisation: our facades whether they be physical ones such as buildings, clothes etc that shape our surroundings and partition them or mental ones such as all the pictures we have in our heads that make us conceive things in certain ways.

Without claiming we should all return to some rousseauesque state of bucolic blissn(not possible), I think that one would see death very differently if one were living in an isolated community in the hunter-gatherer age. You would see more concrete evidence of people coming and going and even resources too as these would have to be sourced and disposed of not too far from where one was dwelling.

Although I don't think it's possible to seperate humans and civilisation - all human groups would see the world mediated through some sorts of myth and so forth. But in our society, it's so easy to forget about things - death, even the death of people close to us can be brushed off and thought of as something that happens to others - the old, the unlucky, those who don't buy organic and use sunscreen - and we don't think much about where the physical objects we have at our disposal come from. We tend to act as if there's some magical, infinitely bountiful Star Trek-like replicater out there that will keep us and our descendents for generations and generations equipped with ever-improving products. It's like we're biting our own tail off and won't even notice it until a lot of damage has been done.

How about a set of reminders:

Created goods must be followed down a chain from raw material to refuse - ignore any part of this at your peril.

You will die. Come to terms with it instead of burying your head in the sand about it.

If people did the latter, they might be less blasé about deaths of other people. I'm not saying people should be obsessed with death but rather aware of it properly, in a clear, non-fuzzy, non-sentimental way. People should kindle a sincere sense of respect and wonder at conscious experience and how each one of us has a unique viewpioint on the world around us. Most people are aware of this but it takes effort to maintain enthusiasm.

Eh, enough rambling for a bit!

Sleepy

Interesting post. While living in an isolated community would make one suffer a greater impact from the death of a member of that societal group, it would also leave one completely unaware of the death of thousands of people in natural disasters, wars etc which we are made aware of as a result of civilisation. Though, how much this affects us is clearly questionable given that we as social creatures place more importance on the death of smaller numbers of friends, family members, etc. than we do on massive numbers of strangers.

Western civilisation would seem a little obsessed with death to me at times. At present we have a war mongering president of America elected out of a fear of a highly unlikely death in a terrorist attack; we allow panic to be caused by a bird flu that has claimed a handful of victims; the death of a corrupt footnote in Irish politics and the media's handling of it has dominated our domestic news; our religions bear striking resemblence to death cults and millions are made by selling people things they believe will delay their deaths.

Yet we allow millions to die of needless hunger, we squander our resources killing each other and we seem to be making little or no effort to make this world a better place for future generations to live in (which would seem to me as one of our main purposes in life, if indeed, we have any at all).

I'm not so sure that civilization allows us to ignore death or even to consider it less. It certainly gives us a different (warped?) take on it though.

stevenmu

simu wrote:

Do you ever think that civilisation, while not intended for that purpose, functions as a giant cover-up for the existence and inexorability of death? I do.

Not at all. Death, as you mention is inexorable, it is (if you'll excuse the pun) a fact of life, there is no ignoring it, and no denying it. Civilisation is really a set of rules for how we live, what we do untill we die. Even the traditions and ceremonies related to death that civilisation has brought us are for the living, and how the living should cope with the loss of something.

In fact, I'd almost say the opposite of your thought is true, that civilisation is a giant cover up for life. Civilisation gives us the rules by which we go about our daily lives. It determines how we relate to those around us, and how they relate back to us. Going back to the island example, civilisation determines how resources are dispersed amongst communities, and what role each of us must play to gain those resources. How many of us spend huge amounts of our lives performing roles deemed nessecary to society by civilisation, roles that we would not choose to play if civilisation did not demand they be performed in exchange for the resources we need to live. Civilisation is all about controlling life, death is of no use to it and so is pretty much ignored.

Dades

simu wrote:

Do you ever think that civilisation, while not intended for that purpose, functions as a giant cover-up for the existence and inexorability of death? I do.

I'm failing to see the thinking behind this thread.

Everybody know death is inevitable. A relevant point might be that a majority of people on this earth believe that death is not the end. Therefore for many their actions in this life are governed by their fears for the next one.

Even for those who believe death to be the absolute end, what use is continually facing it? It's still going to happen. When you go on holidays you don't sit for two weeks and think how you'll be back in work soon - where's the point in that? Instead you make the most of the time you have.

You will die. Come to terms with it instead of burying your head in the sand about it.

Do you mean by accepting that death is real, we might be more inclined to help people whose deaths are unnecessary? Why should we continually remind ourselves of our mortality?

Dimitri

In my opinion civilisation is a direct result of death and our in ability to deal with the harsh reality. As a result of our fears we seek solice in each other ie friends/family. As a result of this need for social interaction civilisation/society grows.
*Edit also if we felt every death in the world than life would be spent grieving and not living.

Vangelis

This is astonishing, simu! You must be my potential second soulmate or something. I didn't understand at once what you meant, but now that you write this I'm stunned at the likeness in our thinking!!

simu wrote:

Civilisation: our facades whether they be physical ones such as buildings, clothes etc that shape our surroundings and partition them or mental ones such as all the pictures we have in our heads that make us conceive things in certain ways.

Without claiming we should all return to some rousseauesque state of bucolic blissn(not possible), I think that one would see death very differently if one were living in an isolated community in the hunter-gatherer age. You would see more concrete evidence of people coming and going and even resources too as these would have to be sourced and disposed of not too far from where one was dwelling.

Although I don't think it's possible to seperate humans and civilisation - all human groups would see the world mediated through some sorts of myth and so forth. But in our society, it's so easy to forget about things - death, even the death of people close to us can be brushed off and thought of as something that happens to others - the old, the unlucky, those who don't buy organic and use sunscreen - and we don't think much about where the physical objects we have at our disposal come from. We tend to act as if there's some magical, infinitely bountiful Star Trek-like replicater out there that will keep us and our descendents for generations and generations equipped with ever-improving products. It's like we're biting our own tail off and won't even notice it until a lot of damage has been done.

We are not allowed to die. We expect science and medicine to cure us of all diseases. I have looked at the statistics for cancer and seems at the first glance ludicrous. But then I start imagining that so and so many people will be affected by someone's disease and possible death. Then it becomes horrifying and I'm full of fear for what happen to my future husband, a friend, or myself.

Death is closer to us than we think because we are so used to the medical service's promise that we will be allright. But every person has some kind of a problem, physical or psychological. It comes to everyone. Maybe because we live such rich lives and time flies by keeping us busy, that we take life for granted. We take breath in our lungs for granted. And we trust that science will save us all. We are not allowed to die...

simu wrote:

If people did the latter, they might be less blasé about deaths of other people. I'm not saying people should be obsessed with death but rather aware of it properly, in a clear, non-fuzzy, non-sentimental way. People should kindle a sincere sense of respect and wonder at conscious experience and how each one of us has a unique viewpioint on the world around us. Most people are aware of this but it takes effort to maintain enthusiasm.

Agree with you. But it is not easy not to fear death in a secular world where there is no hope for life after death, that your life has meant something.

I also think we are drawn between the secular scientific simplification of our nature, as mere genetic robots(not my opinion) and a religious hangover which is afraid of what science tells us: We're immortal, beastly, selfish creatures who live for one purpose and that is to pass on our genes. There is no goodness, no altruism, no sincere love and admiration and empathy, only a robotic race towards death. Richard Dawkins(reknowned evolutionist) explains this in his book "The Selfish Gene". He gives us some hope, that humans are capable of defying this urge. But not much really, when the rest of the world appears to be so cruelly primitive.

I experience, deep in my soul, that we have reached a sensitive, nervous breaking-point. We are full of doubt and don't really know what to believe any more. There are so many options and they all demand that we consider them and make up our minds. It is either a short life ending in death or eternal life filled with goodness.

I'm not sure if you simu feel that this is relevant to your line of thinking. This is my contribution anyway.

Zombrex

The Atheist wrote:

I'm failing to see the thinking behind this thread.

Everybody know death is inevitable. A relevant point might be that a majority of people on this earth believe that death is not the end. Therefore for many their actions in this life are governed by their fears for the next one.

Even for those who believe death to be the absolute end, what use is continually facing it? It's still going to happen. When you go on holidays you don't sit for two weeks and think how you'll be back in work soon - where's the point in that? Instead you make the most of the time you have.

Do you mean by accepting that death is real, we might be more inclined to help people whose deaths are unnecessary? Why should we continually remind ourselves of our mortality?

Agreed, I am not really following this thread either

I fail to see the purpose of sitting around all day thinking about how you are going to die. It is not true that modern humans ignore death, we just choose to celebrate life, and the memory of the dead, rather than fixate on the death part. If that is "heads in the sand" so be it, but I fail to see the purpose of spending the majority of ones time reminding ourselves that they will eventually die.

Like Atheist said it is like spending your entire holiday sitting in your room going over your passport and return ticket :rolleyes:

Also it is like saying the purpose of the entire holiday is to distract you from thinking about the flight home. That isn't true, the purpose of the holiday is the holiday.

simu

Eh, no thanks Vangelis, I already have a soul mate!

I'm not saying people ought to be morbid - in fact, I think it's only by being strongly aware of the fragility of life and death, that one can truly appreciate the importance of life - our own and that of others, even those we have never and will never meet.

@The Atheist: yes, the fact that most people believe in another existence after death makes the whole thing seem less of a concern to them. It would be interesting to see how the topic would be approached in a society where most people expected nothing after death.

stevenmu

Dimitri wrote:

In my opinion civilisation is a direct result of death and our in ability to deal with the harsh reality. As a result of our fears we seek solice in each other ie friends/family. As a result of this need for social interaction civilisation/society grows.
*Edit also if we felt every death in the world than life would be spent grieving and not living.

In that sense, doesn't civilisation bring us closer to death. Due to having extended families, wider circles of friends, large numbers of business associates and various social groupings, we interact everyday with much larger numbers of people than we otherwise would. With such a large amount of interactions with such a variety of people, we are inevitably more exposed to the deaths of some of those people. Many funerals nowadays are attended by thousands of people, many of whom probably had less than a casual aquaintance with the deceased, yet our society/civilisation makes us feel connected to them in some way.

Vangelis

Gosh, simu! I was joking with you. Do you take everything literally??!

Dimitri

stevenmu wrote:

In that sense, doesn't civilisation bring us closer to death. Due to having extended families, wider circles of friends, large numbers of business associates and various social groupings, we interact everyday with much larger numbers of people than we otherwise would. With such a large amount of interactions with such a variety of people, we are inevitably more exposed to the deaths of some of those people. Many funerals nowadays are attended by thousands of people, many of whom probably had less than a casual aquaintance with the deceased, yet our society/civilisation makes us feel connected to them in some way.

Agreed but we are all someone children and usually end up burying our parents. My point is people seek solace in each other as a result of fear of there own mortality after being exposed to death. So ya its kind of ironic that our need to alay our fears of death exposes us to more but we find solace in numbers.

Dades

Dimitri wrote:

My point is people seek solace in each other as a result of fear of there own mortality after being exposed to death.

Don't most creatures live within a social structure? Herds, pods, prides, communities? They don't do this as a result of thinking about their mortality but possibly due to safety in numbers. Is our "herd" instinct not just inherited from our many-legged ancestors?

Zombrex

Dimitri wrote:

Agreed but we are all someone children and usually end up burying our parents. My point is people seek solace in each other as a result of fear of there own mortality after being exposed to death. So ya its kind of ironic that our need to alay our fears of death exposes us to more but we find solace in numbers.

I don't know, I think people are reading way to much into human behaviour. Sure things like children, social interaction, business etc stop us sitting around all day doing nothing expect thinking about dying. But that is hardly the motivation or purpose of these things. The reason we do these things goes far beyond simply being scared to think about death. Most young people haven't thought about death enought to be scared enought to make a serious life choice, like having kids, just so they don't have to think about death some more.

It's like saying you eating a hambuger to stop you thinking about having to have the car serviced. It may be true that you don't think about the car while eating the burger, but the two are hardly connected, and you don't eat the hambuger in an effort to avoid thinking about the servicing the car, you eat the hamburger because you are hungry. In focusing on the hamburger you don't think about the car, but then you don't think about a lot of things bar eating the hamburger and not spilling sause on your top.

Zombrex

The Atheist wrote:

Don't most creatures live within a social structure? Herds, pods, prides, communities? They don't do this as a result of thinking about their mortality but possibly due to safety in numbers. Is our "herd" instinct not just inherited from our many-legged ancestors?

Agreed ... not thinking about death all the time might be a small by-product of us living in a herd/civilisation, but I hardly think it is the motivation or rational between living this way. Civilisations did not evolve for that purpose.

Cronus333

Dimitri wrote:

In my opinion civilisation is a direct result of death and our in ability to deal with the harsh reality. As a result of our fears we seek solice in each other ie friends/family. As a result of this need for social interaction civilisation/society grows.
*Edit also if we felt every death in the world than life would be spent grieving and not living.

I disagree. 'civilisation' didn't occur in several parts of the world centuries after others, and unless your claiming that death didn't exist among those people....

U$ername

Safety in numbers...watch a documentary on any type of herd animal....

fly_agaric

Sangre wrote:

Civilisation makes us focus on death even more than ever.
Before we were too busy surviving to stop and think.

If I wasn't sub-normal I may have posted that.:)