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Hectorjelly

Thread title is just there to make you feel better about your life. Anyway im hungry and playing badly, villain of the piece is unremarkable so far. He seems quite active preflop, but havent seen any hands showndown. I have $130 and he has me covered.

I get AKo on the bb. He makes it $5 from the cutoff. I make it $13, he calls.

Flop is A 2 7 rainbow. I bet $4 and he calls.

Turn is a Ten, I bet $12 and he calls.

River is a 2, I bet $20 and he puts me all in for $70 more.

Easy fold?

I played this hand badly on almost every street (turn seems ok), comments welcome on better lines too.

The Troll

Hectorjelly wrote:

Thread title is just there to make you feel better about your life. Anyway im hungry and playing badly, villain of the piece is unremarkable so far. He seems quite active preflop, but havent seen any hands showndown. I have $130 and he has me covered.

I get AKo on the bb. He makes it $5 from the cutoff. I make it $13, he calls.

Flop is A 2 7 rainbow. I bet $4 and he calls.

Turn is a Ten, I bet $12 and he calls.

River is a 2, I bet $20 and he puts me all in for $70 more.

Easy fold?

I played this hand badly on almost every street (turn seems ok), comments welcome on better lines too.

I wouldn't call it an easy fold! A fold yes, but not an easy one. Maybe villain flopped a set of 7s?

Ste05

Hectorjelly wrote:

Flop is A 2 7 rainbow. I bet $4 and he calls.

What's the story with this?? $4 into a pot of at least $26 :eek: :eek: :eek: ????

Hectorjelly wrote:

Easy fold?

What exactly do you think he has?? AT or TT is all you really need to be worried about here I'd have thought....

What sort of image did this guy have of you??

I must say I think I'd have to call here, depending on what sort of player he had you pegged as, but all along it looks like very weak play by you. I can't see what he could have raised with pre-flop that you're not still beating, bar possibly TT or AT maybe a slight possibility of 77, but highly doubtful.

I think I would have raised about the normal amount for a continuation bet at the table (possibly on the low end of this spectrum around half pot) and evaluate his action, but I'd be planning on check raising all-in on this turn.

Samba

I just don't like getting involved in such big pots with AKo and my gut would tell me to fold.

My reads would be A2/A10 with 77, 1010 and 22 as a maybe.


I might have checked that flop in a hope of a bet and I would then have re-raised to get more information.

My gut is telling me he had A10

careca

I would be very worried that he never raised your underbet on the flop. Its as if hes not at all worried. If he had Ax, I would have expected a reraise after the flop to test the water. He could have AA and is slowplaying. The other alternative is AT or TT in which case he was calling your small bet to see what the turn brought and got lucky.

Still as Troll says, its not an easy fold. There are really only three hands to worry about, i would discount 22 or 77. Of course then theres the hammer. could this be revenge !!!!!!!!!1

Ste05

Is HJ the villian in this piece?? I just can't see him making this flop bet!!!

NickyOD

What a disgusting hand. No draws. He may have read your flop bet as weak and called only with the intention of trying to get you off the hand on the river. I think he could have any 2 cards here. I have to call.

Ste05

NickyOD wrote:

What a disgusting hand. No draws. He may have read your flop bet as weak and called only with the intention of trying to get you off the hand on the river. I think he could have any 2 cards here. I have to call.

My thoughts exactly - and it's why I think HJ made the play and is the villian in this piece.... must be a +EV move, based on how many people have said they would fold here.

NickyOD

Ste05 wrote:

My thoughts exactly - and it's why I think HJ made the play and is the villian in this piece....

HJ isn't the villain.

PPP-Pit Boss

If he had the hammer and called the pre-flop raise.... dont worry coz you will have it back in a jiffy. Two pair at the least a fold to be sure. You berate your limp on the flop yet if it had transpired differently it would have been a great move. Why would he reraise post flop if he had landed two pair it would have given too much info away? But you must have known at the river that he had you beaten so I think this bet may have been the one you could have done without.

Ste05

NickyOD wrote:

HJ isn't the villain.

Possibly, I just want to catch one of his sly little posts

P.S. HJ if you're still on-line what blind level is this 1/2 or .50/1??

padser

Yeah I think its probably a call here although not an easy one.

There is roughly $150 in pot and it costs you $70 to win it. You only got to win it about 1 in 3 times for it to be positive EV. (unless my maths is way off)

Cant see whats beating you except AA A10 or 10,10. If i was a gambling man (which im not :rolleyes: ) Id say u called and were beated by 10 10 or possibly AA.

DeVore

This has to be a read-based decision. I dont think there is anything like enough information to make the decision, certainly not with the quality of play thats out there. For example he may well think that you couldnt have an Ace in the hole as you are in the blinds (yes, I know... but people think like that). The fact that you reraise should rule out him having 22 (since he called) but thats also not necessaraily true at all!

Basically it has to be read based, though I would lean towards calling. I'm totally bamboozled by the 4 euro bet on the flop though!

DeV.

Hectorjelly

Ste05 wrote:

Possibly, I just want to catch one of his sly little posts

P.S. HJ if you're still on-line what blind level is this 1/2 or .50/1??

50 1

karlh

if the flop bet is solely designed to get raised and go over the top then it's fair enough.

as Dev said, this is purely based on your read. TPTK is too good to fold on this board for me.

i'd put him on AQ or AK for a split considering the call preflop. if he's hit his set you just have to pay him off with so little to go on.

padraig_f

It's a fold for me, you reraise pre-flop, an ace falls and you bet every street. If you check on the river the decision is a lot tougher - while many players at these levels are capable of running a big bluff when you check to them, far fewer will come over the top on a pure bluff (and probably with good reason as too many others feel obliged to call a reraise once they've bet). Also the delayed bluff is nearly always done over two streets (e.g. call the flop, raise the turn), I've not seen it done too often over three.

hotspur

I know you know the flop bet was rather useless in terms of either getting money / pushing him out / getting information, but you seem like someone who takes his game seriously, so why did you bet $4 on the flop? Was it randomness through boredom? Calling all in on the end there would be throwing money away 90% of the time. Hopefully it had a happy ending

Amaru

I think you're ahead here. He has AQ or AJ. If he had 2 pair, a set or a house, i think he'd have reraised you long before the river to get value on his big hand.

Hectorjelly

If I played a hand that badly I think id kill myself. Actually Ste was right I was the villain of the piece. I had T2s. Preflop allthough it seems loose its not really, once I am reraised its only $8 more to me. On the flop I knew I was behind, I only called because he bet $4 into such a big pot. On the turn Im pretty sure Im ahead, the only hand that has me beat is AA, small chance of AT, which I am wary of. On the river Im behind precisely one possible hand so I raise him. He called and went into a rant for the next hour about me before losing 2 buyins and leaving.

I think he made a few huge mistakes during the hand, Preflop I much prefer a flat call to a reraise out of position, but if your going to raise it needs to be much closer to pot size. I only had to call 8 more to win a chance to stack him, he should of made it at least 12 more.

His flop bet really sunk him, if your planning to back a 1 pair hand with your stack later in the hand you really need to protect it. I dont mind a small bet here if your going to fold later in the hand if you get a lot of action. I would of folded to a proper bet on the flop.

Turn and river are ok but I think the river is a fold. Whilst im capable of bluffing the river he doesnt know that, and I would never make a huge bluff on the river based on the texture of the board.

Amaru

Hectorjelly wrote:

On the turn Im pretty sure Im ahead, the only hand that has me beat is AA, small chance of AT, which I am wary of. On the river Im behind precisely one possible hand so I raise him. He called and went into a rant for the next hour about me before losing 2 buyins and leaving.

Are you talking theoretically, or plausibly?

Because on the river you're also behind A2, 77 and TT and on the turn you're behind A7.

If you do mean plausibly, then never mind.

Did you ever feel he might have had TT though? His flop bet could easily have been a probe bet for the Ace, and then he bet 3 times that on the turn.

Ste05

Hectorjelly wrote:

If I played a hand that badly I think id kill myself. Actually Ste was right I was the villain of the piece.

Yippee!!!!!

I knew it couldn't be you in this hand, for 2 reasons:
1) you would never play a hand so badly and;
2) if for some reason you were on drugs and actually did, there's absolutely no chance you'd post it here,

Unless of course (which actually did cross my mind:cool: :cool: ) you were doing a Gigabet and setting up a play for later in the BCOOP:D But then I put back on my tinfoil hat and realised I was right in the first place!!!!

NickyOD

So you raised and called a reraise for 10% of your oponents stack with T2o and were lucky enough to make a backdoor house after he flops top pair top kicker on a board with no draws. How often will this happen with these kind of hands? Whatever about your postflop play, preflop it was terrible. regardless of the fact that it was only another 8 for you to call. The play is definitely -EV.

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

So you raised and called a reraise for 10% of your oponents stack with T2o and were lucky enough to make a backdoor house after he flops top pair top kicker on a board with no draws. How often will this happen with these kind of hands? Whatever about your postflop play, preflop it was terrible. regardless of the fact that it was only another 8 for you to call. The play is definitely -EV.

T2s. The raise is + EV, and the call of the raise is +EV. When he raises me I have to call 6.25% of my opponents stack. Im in position I have a ok hand that is very well disguised and I play infinitely better than my opponent. He is more than happy to put his stack in on the river with 1 pair! This is a clear call. Id call here with any pair.

Think about what hands we have and how well we play respectively. There is no flop that can come that will end up with me putting in my chips in a bad situation. He has defined his hand to a small range but he can have no idea what I have. The key to being a great player is maximise his expectation on every hand. This is definitely a profiable situation for me, of course its more marginal than waiting for pocket pair or similar hand, but that doesnt mean its a mistake. Playing tight and aggressive isnt the holy grail.

wayfarer

NickyOD wrote:

So you raised and called a reraise for 10% of your oponents stack with T2o and were lucky enough to make a backdoor house after he flops top pair top kicker on a board with no draws. How often will this happen with these kind of hands? Whatever about your postflop play, preflop it was terrible. regardless of the fact that it was only another 8 for you to call. The play is definitely -EV.

I wouldnt agree with that at all. First you are getting better than 2:1 for your money; that's a good enough reason to call unless you are sure you are dominated or against an over pair. Secondly there are the implied odds and then, on top of that, you have position for every betting round after.

Also, if you fold now he is just going to think that you were trying to steal the blinds and your raises will get little respect afterwards. He could already be thinking that you were stealing and would have made a stand with any hand.

Amaru

I still don't see why he couldn't have had AA or TT, with the former using the rationale of weak players betting weak on strong hands, and the latter being a probe bet for the ace. (both referring to the bet on the flop obviously)

Ste05

A probe bet with 4 will find out nothing at all.....

EDIT - Amaru you sly dog, my post looks like a mad man posted it now......

Hectorjelly

Amaru wrote:

I still don't see why he couldn't have had AA or TT, with the former using the rationale of weak players betting weak on strong hands, and the latter being a probe bet for the ace. (both referring to the bet on the flop obviously)

TT is unlikely because of the reraise preflop and the bet on the turn, I think someone who has just hit their money card doesnt bet so much. Its definitely possible, AA too but I dont see your point, do you think I should of flat called the river? AK is far more likely than AA. Against a strong player flat calling on the river might be the best play, as he will fold AK and call with a house.

Amaru

Ste05 wrote:

A probe bet with 4 will find out nothing at all.....

EDIT - Amaru you sly dog, my post looks like a mad man posted it now......

Sorry?

Ste05

Amaru wrote:

Sorry?

Never mind - thought you edited out the probe bet bit

Amaru

EDIT - Amaru you sly dog, my post looks like a mad man posted it now......

Sometimes you just have to love irony!

Ste05

Amaru wrote:

Sometimes you just have to love irony!

No need to rub it in......

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

T2s. The raise is + EV, and the call of the raise is +EV. When he raises me I have to call 6.25% of my opponents stack. Im in position I have a ok hand that is very well disguised and I play infinitely better than my opponent. He is more than happy to put his stack in on the river with 1 pair! This is a clear call. Id call here with any pair.

Think about what hands we have and how well we play respectively. There is no flop that can come that will end up with me putting in my chips in a bad situation. He has defined his hand to a small range but he can have no idea what I have. The key to being a great player is maximise his expectation on every hand. This is definitely a profiable situation for me, of course its more marginal than waiting for pocket pair or similar hand, but that doesnt mean its a mistake. Playing tight and aggressive isnt the holy grail.

The only reason you didn't lose the amount you put in preflop was because he priced you in on the flop. How often is that going to happen and you get to outdraw him and get p[aid off? Against even very bad players you will lose money long term with this play. It was +EV because your oponent was a horrible player.

NickyOD

wayfarer wrote:

Also, if you fold now he is just going to think that you were trying to steal the blinds and your raises will get little respect afterwards. He could already be thinking that you were stealing and would have made a stand with any hand.

Does that mean you should always call when your blind steals get reraised? It's also extremely rare for any player to make a stand by reraising with a bad hand preflop. They're much more likely to just make looser calls and make a play for the pot on the flop.

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

Against even very bad players you will lose money long term with this play. It was +EV because your oponent was a horrible player.

These two sentances contradict each other, yes its only profitable because hes a horrible player. I wont lose long term there.

One of the reasons I posted this hand was because of my preflop play, I know its marginal and appreciate the comments. I understand completely where your coming from. But I think your underestimating a few factors. If I call I get heads up in position with a reasnable hand. This isnt the same as playing a multiway pot with T2s where my hands pot equity is liable to be in terrible shape, Im against a single opponent who has already defined his hand. In a heads up match I assume you would call here, so why not now?

There are all types of reasons as to why calling is good, if the hand goes to showdown Ill no doubt be labelled as a loose fish. And in raised pots people are going to be in difficulty putting me on a hand.

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

Does that mean you should always call when your blind steals get reraised? It's also extremely rare for any player to make a stand by reraising with a bad hand preflop. They're much more likely to just make looser calls and make a play for the pot on the flop.

If I thought he was reraising with crap Id me much more inclined to fold. The whole reason you call is that you have great implied odds. If you think there is a good chance he will fold at some stage then all you really have is folding equity and reverse implied odds.

You should always call reraises with your blinds steals if its for 5% or less of the effective stack your in position and your against an bad player. 5 - 10 % is marginal.

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

These two sentances contradict each other, yes its only profitable because hes a horrible player. I wont lose long term there. .

What I meant was it was +EV because he was worse than very bad, because most bad players will not underbet this flop. Also I think you're stretching the implied odds for a hand like T2. I would raise and call a reraise with hands like 65s or even gap connectors but I really think you were pushing it on this occasion and got lucky.