Advice - religion and relationship

LegacyUser

Hi all, I'm a registered user, given plenty of advice on this forum before so I appreciate any advice anyone can give me.

Basically four months ago, my fiance and I split up, basically because of different religious beliefs. At the time it was very tough but we've remained on good terms and I really got on with things, went out, met other people etc.

Lately though it's really been getting to me how much I actually miss her. Now there's really only one chance of us getting back together - and that's if I agree to give religion a chance and go along to meetings/church or whatever. Now I don't think this is for me and I don't like getting ultimatums and I being the stubborn individual that I am I said there was no chance.

But the other part of me thinks that if I really love I should be able to make this small effort and at least give it a go! What do ye all think?

ferdi

tanko wrote:

But the other part of me thinks that if I really love I should be able to make this small effort and at least give it a go! What do ye all think?

i wouldnt really call it a small effort. religion only counts when faith is involved (imo). billions of people get on great being religious so it may work for you, only way to find out is to try. but honestly i woundnt be too hopeful. why have you made it this far in life without god? it seems a bit off to take up religion to get your girl back, but jesus himself said the greatest gift of all is Love.....sorry its not really advice, i'm just tryin to get my head around it:D

Stabshauptmann

is faking it that big a deal?

RE*AC*TOR

It depends on how much you love her i guess. Or how much you desire to live your life fighting your corner. Its easy to fall into the trap of standing your ground not giving an inch - ie living by your principles. It can end up making you even more unhappy. I guess it comes down to which would you be happiest with life with fiancé + religion or life without fiancé. If you can decide which you'd prefer then there's your answer. However, without knowing all the details on the face of it the ultimatum sounds a little unreasonable (but then again she is a woman :rolleyes: )

Cabaal

I don't think its that simple to just change beliefs, in fairness your ex-girlfriend is only kidding herself if she thinks she can convert someone that does not believe in god, personally you'll only be fooling yourself in the long run imho especially igf its something you don't want to do

LegacyUser

Sorry should've given a little bit more info. It's not that I don't believe in god, it's just that I don't share the same faith as my ex. She is a born again christian and lately has become more immersed in her faith. I however have some faith but kinda half-heartedly, really I take as much or as little as suits me, lazy religion for the person who wishes to suit himself.

Don't think I could fake it, think it would go a little against my principles.

It is a tricky situation cause in my opion you either have faith or you don't, I don't think you can just decide to have it.

tbh

Hi,

My opinion would be, if you can accept her, with religion, she should be able to accept you without. Your point of view is exactly as valid as hers. You could easily say "If you want to be with me, give up the religion".

Having said that, it seems like the unstoppable force vs immovable object problem. Fair play to her for sticking to her principles, but she has given you the choice: Either go her way, or go away. In my case, anyone forcing me to choose like that would always lose, but it could be different for you. Its a toughie, could argue either side really, it depends how principled you are!

I suppose, if you don't believe what she belives, then to go along with it just because she believes in it isn't really good for anyone.

Sorry if I've made you more confused than you were to begin with

Caimin

bombidol

knock it on the head. born again christians are not to be messed with. its 100% madness 100% of the time. if she is so stuck up about you not being born again that she will not see you, then she doesnt love you. its that simple.

annR

It depends on what exactly does she want you to do . . . Become a born again as well? She's not happy with you being a Christian but Catholic or whatever it is?

LegacyUser

I appreciate all advice given, hasn't confused me more than I already am. It has cemented a few things in my mind though. Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply

Canis Lupus

caimin wrote:

Hi,

My opinion would be, if you can accept her, with religion, she should be able to accept you without. Your point of view is exactly as valid as hers.

Agreed. The word she needs to learn is compromise. Personally I wouldn't want to be with someone who puts religion before a relationship never mind a women who isn't willing to listen to your point of view.

Beruthiel

sorry
but I am of the opinion if she cared for you at all, it wouldn't matter what religion you were, I find it hard to believe that she would have you back if you were to change to her religion, what the hell does that say about her?!?!
seriously
sounds to me like you had a lucky escape, keep running!

RE*AC*TOR

Beruthiel wrote:

sorry
but I am of the opinion if she cared for you at all, it wouldn't matter what religion you were, I find it hard to believe that she would have you back if you were to change to her religion, what the hell does that say about her?!?!
seriously
sounds to me like you had a lucky escape, keep running!

Its easy for you or i to say something like that - but you can't ignore the emotional investment to OP obviously has in the relationship. We can look at it in a pragmatic way like that, but in the end of the day it is possible that he will be happier long term in this relationship.

Beruthiel

perhaps..
but I for one, could never allow someone to shove their religious opinions on me and expect me to do it because I care for them

LegacyUser

Point taken, believe me I understand where you are all coming from, and it is the exact way I initially approached the stiuation - ie. standing up for my principles and walking away.

Like I said previously, over the last few days I've been thinking that maybe the least I could do is find out a little more about the whole thing and show some support - that said it's not as though I hadn't ever tagged along out of curiousity and when I did I just felt it wasn't for me.

This had a been a pretty long term relationship (years) so it is taking a bit of time adjusting.

Even thinking of doing this is a long way from my usual point of view, if you could read the advice I've given out when logged on under my username you would understand so I don't know why I'm even considering it.

Anyway again I appreciate anyone taking the time out to read and respond, all advice has been welcome and thanks again

annR

I respect people whose religion is important to them and I can see how it could cause difficulties as it has implications for the meaning of your marraige and how you want to raise your kids etc. and your whole spiritual life. However I never heard of these issues arising if you're both Christians, you're even a half - believer (which is more than I am). Surely there must be some compromise possible? That's why I ask exactly what it is she wants from you.

Zebra3

Beruthiel wrote:

sorry
but I am of the opinion if she cared for you at all, it wouldn't matter what religion you were, I find it hard to believe that she would have you back if you were to change to her religion, what the hell does that say about her?!?!
seriously
sounds to me like you had a lucky escape, keep running!

Agree 100% with that post.

Best of luck w/o her.

dudara

I agree 100% with Beruthiel there.

I'm utterly atheist, but I thought christianity was about tolerance. If she can't accept your faith, then it shows a sharp lack of tolerance, and dare I say love for you, on her part.

The Sweeper

I dunno - if my partner was going to leave me for somebody, it couldn't get much better than God... I'm hardly going to lose sleep comparing myself now am I?

OP if your missus doesn't have enough respect for you to tolerate your lack of faith then not only does she not love you, then she may be a bit of a bigot as well. Assuming you've never had a go at her about her beliefs, or asked her not to do things related to her church at any stage?

WhiteWashMan

do you miss her specifically, or do you miss the relationship type thing. you know, ebing with someone, going out, being there for each other, that type of thing.

LegacyUser

No I miss her rather than miss being in a relationship.

The split was a kind of two way thing in that we reached a stage where neither of us were willing to compromise over our beliefs. Mine as I said befoe are half beliefs, basically when I think about it I only believe what suits me, whereas she has become fairly immersed in her faith over the last couple of years.

annr - what she expects from her future husband is involvement in the her church, not only for me to accept her beliefs but also to have some sort of participation. Personally I think this comes from a bit of peer pressure from within her church and maybe on her part some embaressment that I take little or no interest. This is not just an issue as to rasing children and whatever because I believe that those issues have previousy been agreed upon.

Actually writing this makes it all a bit more obvious about what I should do, this is the first time I have even tried to explain to anyone why we broke up, not even my family know the real reasons and we are very close. Most of my friends/family could not even contemplate the complexity of this situation, most would be aware of my ex's strong beliefs but probably not the extent to which she has become involved.

Anyway seems like I have been right to hold my ground and not be pushed into something I don't want to be involved in.

Beruthiel

tanko wrote:

No not only for me to accept her beliefs but also to have some sort of participation. Personally I think this comes from a bit of peer pressure from within her church and maybe on her part some embaressment that I take little or no interest..

if that is correct, than it borders on scarey, cultish behaviour

nesf

Beruthiel wrote:

if that is correct, than it borders on scarey, cultish behaviour

I couldn't agree more. If she is getting pressured to "marry within the faith" then that is most definitely not a good thing.

It is one thing to expect a partner to respect your beliefs, it is a totally different matter to expect a partner to conform to your's. It shows zero respect for your partner and their beliefs.

If her religion is the source of this intolerance then I would not dream of having anything to do with it.

The Corinthian

If we were talking about an established religion, I might suggest you convert and fake it. I’ve known a few people who’ve done this and they are happy enough to fake the religion that they’ve converted to as much as the one they were born to.

Born again, evangelical Christianity is another matter, as you can’t really fake it any more than the Al-Qaeda brand of Islam. Any religious belief system that demands that the adherent immerses him or herself in a specific way of life is not for faint hearted and may well be too much for someone genuinely converting, let alone someone who’s simply doing it for ulterior motives.

That she would be pressurised to either ‘convert or dump’ you is not unusual. Most cult-like groups are militantly salvitic, and ruthlessly employ peer pressure to convert or, failing conversion, exclude individuals. After all, if you’re not one of them you are only likely to question their beliefs and engender doubt in the faithful, if you’re allowed to remain in their midst.

So even if you could fake it (or convince yourself of it) in the long term, you would have to come to grips with the fact that such a religion would most likely dictate your future relationship; where you live, who you socialize with, how you raise your children, etc. Those decisions would no longer be your own, but would essentially be made by the Church Community.

Honestly, I would echo the opinions of the others here. You’ve actually long lost her. She’s in love with her God, not you. You’re just relegated to the role of assisting her in fulfilling Genesis 9:7 and as such easily replaced with another member of the congregation.

Hardly the basis for a healthy relationship, regardless of whether it was religious belief or not that brought you to this.

mikeruurds

I find it hard to believe that so many people think that Evangelical christianity is some kind of cult. I suppose that it is pretty "new" to Ireland as the country is a stronghold of Catholicism.

I am a reborn Christian and have been all my life. I have never heard of anyone being forced to marry within the faith. The bible does warn against being "unequally yoked" i.e. that if you marry someone with different values/beliefs to your own that it could cause friction in the future when making decisions that would be affected by those very beliefs. If your ex was forcing you to convert then it's probably because she wants to take your relationship to a more serious level and would like to be with someone with the same beliefs as her - as a matter of her own choice.

Seriously... I've heard never heard of that happening. One of the core issues of our faith is that it is a personal choice that you make. Forcing someone to convert goes totally against this. She might have set that requirement herself, but I'd be really concerned if the church had told her that she had to marry within the faith.

The Corinthian

mikeruurds wrote:

I find it hard to believe that so many people think that Evangelical christianity is some kind of cult. I suppose that it is pretty "new" to Ireland as the country is a stronghold of Catholicism.

I said cult-like. Not quite the same thing as a cult, but neither is it quite the same thing as an established religion.

I have never heard of anyone being forced to marry within the faith.

I doubt anyone is forced, but they would be strongly discouraged.

You have to bare in mind what defines a cult. It’s not economic or even physical coercion, but social and psychological that is employed to convert and strengthen the ties of that community. Anything that would threaten this cohesiveness is discouraged as it may introduce arguments or opinions into the community that would engender doubt.

Established religions do the same thing, but the social engineering tends to be looser, given the larger populations. There’s less love bombing, as it were.

The bible does warn against being "unequally yoked" i.e. that if you marry someone with different values/beliefs to your own that it could cause friction in the future when making decisions that would be affected by those very beliefs.

And there we go - while not barring such a union; you’re already putting a foundation upon its discouragement. And if the community that accepts you, loves you, is part of your life discourages you hard and long enough, then you’ll eventually capitulate to Their Will.

You don’t need a gun to coerce anyone, after all.

One of the core issues of our faith is that it is a personal choice that you make.

Yes, but if you choose not to believe you’re frozen out. That’s how these things work.

Or how many failed candidates are still around the community a year after they’ve chosen not to convert?

mikeruurds

The Corinthian wrote:

I said cult-like. Not quite the same thing as a cult, but neither is it quite the same thing as an established religion.

So let me understand what you're saying. You're saying that if I'm a reborn-christian, that I do not believe in an established religion. I'm a Christian and I believe that the bible is the word of God... you don't get more established than that. Just because I don't answer to the Pope or some Anglican bishop doesn't mean that I'm in some kind of cult. The disciples were all "Reborn Christians" as they obeyed Jesus' instruction that they had to be spiritually "born again".


[/QUOTE]I doubt anyone is forced, but they would be strongly discouraged.[/QUOTE]

Sure, I'll give you that... but people are only discouraged in accordance with the scriptures. It's up to you to decide.

[/QUOTE]You have to bare in mind what defines a cult. It’s not economic or even physical coercion, but social and psychological that is employed to convert and strengthen the ties of that community. Anything that would threaten this cohesiveness is discouraged as it may introduce arguments or opinions into the community that would engender doubt.[/QUOTE]

That sounds more like established religions than the Pentecostal church my friend. In our church we are encouraged to doubt and ask questions rather than just believing what you are told by the priest. And your reference to "looser social engineering" in "Established religions" absolutely doesn't make sense... if anything they are even harsher. For example:

1. Celibacy for the priesthood: - not mentioned in the Bible
2. Use of contraception: - not mentioned in the Bible
3. Divorce not being allowed - also not biblical... divorce is mentioned in cases of marital infidelity

These are some of many man-made rules that are not biblical and are to be found in "Established religions"

[/QUOTE]And there we go - while not barring such a union; you’re already putting a foundation upon its discouragement. And if the community that accepts you, loves you, is part of your life discourages you hard and long enough, then you’ll eventually capitulate to Their Will.[/QUOTE]

As mentioned before I am only following what the bible instructs... I'm not laying down any foundations of my own. It's up to any Christian to decide for themselves whether or not they want to obey Gods word. You seem believe that "Reborn Christians" sit around and scheme about how they can ostracise certain people while ensnaring others. You are so far off of the mark. Maybe one day when you find some time off of being such a cynic you might try stepping into a Pentecostal church. You'd be surprised at the lack of cultish behaviour. I don't mean to be nasty, but you appear to be making judgements about a topic that you don't seem to know much about.

[/QUOTE]Yes, but if you choose not to believe you’re frozen out. That’s how these things work. Or how many failed candidates are still around the community a year after they’ve chosen not to convert?[/QUOTE]

I've never seen anything like this happen. People are free to come and go as they please. They're welcome to believe whatever they like and to ask questions, no matter how difficult the subject matter may be. Any questions will be answered with reference to God's Word and people are welcome to disagree with the Pastor.

Back to the topic at hand. The OP is in a situation where he has been given an ultimatum by his girlfriend. I myself might not agree with telling someone to become a Christian or leave, but that was her choice. She could just have easily told him that she didn't want children and that he had to break off the relationship if he wouldn't promise not to ever want kids. All that I can say is that in my many years of experience as a reborn christian I have never heard any pastor tell his congregation that they were not allowed to marry someone of another faith. I have also never seen or been party to any kind of "freezing out" of people that refuse to become "reborn christians". As a matter of fact all I have seen is people being welcomed... never chased away. Your statements reek of uninformed speculation.

Tanko... good luck for the future man. I hope that things work out for you.

Lex_Diamonds

Can I ask the OP what caused her mental breakdown? Some traumatic event in her past? This seems to be the reason many people become born again christians. Excluding dangerous convicts who use it to get parole of course.

mikeruurds

Lex_Diamonds wrote:

Can I ask the OP what caused her mental breakdown? Some traumatic event in her past? This seems to be the reason many people become born again christians. Excluding dangerous convicts who use it to get parole of course.

Interesting statement. You troll a lot for a moderator. You're all assuming that she is some kind of brainless automaton who shares her mind with the borg-like "reborn christian" church and has no will of her own. Let's answer the OP's question by blasting a belief that we know nothing about because it's so much easier to bash someones religion than to actually deal with the issue at hand.

Well done. Now prepare to be assimilated with the rest of the ignorant faithless masses.

Oh... and please also remind me about the history of interfaith marriages between Catholics and Protestants in this country and how these unions were encouraged by both churches.

LegacyUser

Ok, listen guys relax.

I'm not for a second saying that I believe this to be some cultish behaviour where she has been put under pressure by members of her community to 'convert' me. When I say peer pressure I don't mean that all these people are trying to force her to bring along her partner to be indoctrinated into a cult, simply put I imagine that it's merely suggested that I should share her faith to some degree. Also i guess she's slightly embaressed that the other members who have gf's/bf's/husbands/wives are all involved together.

Anyway this doesn't change the situation in any way, it still leaves a dilemma of sorts. But I knoe that my mind has been made up on this for the last 4 months, I won't be changing my stance on this and everyone here has really reinforced that for me.

Mikerurrds, many thanks for your insight, it is valuable to have some opinion/facts from someone who is involved in the 're-born' community.

mikeruurds

Hey Tanko

Not that it matters what I think... because it doesn't as it's your life we're talking about here.

I'm glad that you've made your mind up and have gone with your heart. It would've been a mistake to "fake it" if she was demanding your conversion against your will... you could only have kept up the charade for a while and would have probably come out of the whole thing seriously upset.

Cheers

Mike

TheBurningMan

This seems to have gotten off topic, here's my suggestion

Move on, Both parties belief's are stronger than the relationship. not the basis for something long term.

The Corinthian

mikeruurds wrote:

So let me understand what you're saying. You're saying that if I'm a reborn-christian, that I do not believe in an established religion.

No, that’s not what I said.

Sure, I'll give you that... but people are only discouraged in accordance with the scriptures. It's up to you to decide.

The question is to what degree people are discouraged. Giving someone the choice between conformity with the community and partial or complete ostracisation is not much of a choice after all.

That sounds more like established religions than the Pentecostal church my friend. In our church we are encouraged to doubt and ask questions rather than just believing what you are told by the priest. And your reference to "looser social engineering" in "Established religions" absolutely doesn't make sense... if anything they are even harsher.

Yet for all your protestations, the topic of this thread is that she gave him an ultimatum - actively (not even lip service) convert or break up.

It doesn’t get much harsher than that, and it is something that simply does not occur in established religions - at worst you may have to nominally convert, but in most cases even that is ignored nowadays.

These are some of many man-made rules that are not biblical and are to be found in "Established religions"

What’s your point? When was the last expulsion from the Catholic Church for using condoms?

As mentioned before I am only following what the bible instructs...

That makes it all right then, I suppose. Again irrelevant to what’s being discussed and simply serves to justify your own opposition to mixed unions.

I'm not laying down any foundations of my own. It's up to any Christian to decide for themselves whether or not they want to obey Gods word.

So if by that logic, and according to the Bible, they are "unequally yoked", then for them to stay together would be in contradiction of scripture? If so, is she not rejecting God’s Word by staying with him?

Some choice.

I don't mean to be nasty, but you appear to be making judgements about a topic that you don't seem to know much about.

Of course you mean to be nasty, but that’s all right. And you appear to know less about me if that’s what you think.

I've never seen anything like this happen.

Was that a response to my question?

Back to the topic at hand. The OP is in a situation where he has been given an ultimatum by his girlfriend. I myself might not agree with telling someone to become a Christian or leave, but that was her choice. She could just have easily told him that she didn't want children and that he had to break off the relationship if he wouldn't promise not to ever want kids.

Whatever the motivation, which I’d agree is probably off topic here, I would concur that ultimately there was an incompatibility that was and is not going to be bridged. It simply happened to be religious in this case.

All that I can say is that in my many years of experience as a reborn christian I have never heard any pastor tell his congregation that they were not allowed to marry someone of another faith. I have also never seen or been party to any kind of "freezing out" of people that refuse to become "reborn christians". As a matter of fact all I have seen is people being welcomed... never chased away. Your statements reek of uninformed speculation.

Lucky you. I’ve seen people frozen out. I’ve seen questions being shouted down. I’ve seen manipulation both subtle and gross. Happens all the time, even if you’ve never seen or refuse to see it.

mikeruurds

The Corinthian wrote:

No, that’s not what I said.

The question is to what degree people are discouraged. Giving someone the choice between conformity with the community and partial or complete ostracisation is not much of a choice after all.

Yet for all your protestations, the topic of this thread is that she gave him an ultimatum - actively (not even lip service) convert or break up.

It doesn’t get much harsher than that, and it is something that simply does not occur in established religions - at worst you may have to nominally convert, but in most cases even that is ignored nowadays.

What’s your point? When was the last expulsion from the Catholic Church for using condoms?

That makes it all right then, I suppose. Again irrelevant to what’s being discussed and simply serves to justify your own opposition to mixed unions.

So if by that logic, and according to the Bible, they are "unequally yoked", then for them to stay together would be in contradiction of scripture? If so, is she not rejecting God’s Word by staying with him?

Some choice.

Of course you mean to be nasty, but that’s all right. And you appear to know less about me if that’s what you think.

Was that a response to my question?

Whatever the motivation, which I’d agree is probably off topic here, I would concur that ultimately there was an incompatibility that was and is not going to be bridged. It simply happened to be religious in this case.

Lucky you. I’ve seen people frozen out. I’ve seen questions being shouted down. I’ve seen manipulation both subtle and gross. Happens all the time, even if you’ve never seen or refuse to see it.

I've detailed my experiences and cannot answer for a girl I do not know as well as a church I have not been to. Your depiction of a church that "reborn christians" frequent is not representative of the church as a whole and is certainly not what I have experienced. I have attended Pentecostal, Methodist, Presbytarian, Catholic, Congregational and Anglican churches... I have not experienced cultish behaviour in any of them.

You seem to know me very well and have mentioned that I am opposed to mixed unions... another fallacy. I have no problem with people of different religions marrying. All I said was that their could be future frictions between the married couple when it comes to matters such as baptism of the kids, where their kids will attend church, which church they themselves will get married in etc.

Sometimes these issues can cause massive tension, no matter which religions the couple may believe in. In some cases this can be a very big deal.

You are welcome to your opinion and I retain my right to have my own.

LegacyUser

I have recently got involved with a girl who (quite possibly) belongs to the same church as the OP's fiance and mikeruuds. For the record, I am Catholic, and would have a similar belief system to the OP.

I do know that the particular Church (Bible Church) she attends has in the past put very strong pressure on another friend of mine NOT to become involved with a non-practicing Catholic she had fallen in love with.

My girlfriend has friends in the Church who actually prayed that we would break-up before anything got too serious (and, while they accept me now, would probably be able to see a silver lining to us breaking up even now). Indeed, if we did break up, the Church would verify it as God directing us in that way.

Her parents (also very religious), would be broadly concerned that as a Catholic I threaten her faith in some way - she lied to her Mum, saying that I was non-practicing - not quite true, though I couldn't claim to be in attendance every Sunday. For her Mum, being non-practicing was less of a threat, than if I was a true Catholic believer.

Other weird stuff would be her reference to herself as a Christian to the exclusion of others, and me (in her Church, they apparently believe themselves to be the only proper Christians). Also, I sometimes find her "born-again virginity" (my term, not hers), a little weird, especially as we come very close to full intercourse, and she enjoys sex, but this is something I live with quite happily.

In a practical sense it is difficult for her - her social network is largely comprised of Christians, so ineveitably it would be easier if I was in her Church. Also things like marriage, children etc would be easier.

But like another poster said, if she wouldn't give up her religion for you, then she can't expect you to give up yours for her - this is basic parity of esteem. Tolerance is also a Christian virtue, and could be a trump card.

My compromise is:

1. As a general rule, I will never attend Church with her, except for ecumenical services (my feelings are simply not strong enough to stand there and feel involved in her Church). I know she has hinted before that I should go - gently, in fairness, but I have always resisted doing so.
2. In as much as possible I try to attend my own (Catholic) Church - this reinforces my religion and the parity of esteem.
3. I will always attend social events arranged within her Church (this can sometimes involve Gospel Singing, and some Evangelical sermons / stories which are intertwined with the social side). I do this to show her I want to be a part of her life, even if I can't be a full part of her religion.
4. If we do get married, I am happy to do so in her Church - it is gentlemanly, for a start, but also as she has the stronger faith, this makes sense. Ditto if we have children.
5. I do not rule out ever joining her Church - but I will only do so when I make that decision myself; and when I make it whole-heartedly.
6. If it came to an ultimatum, I think I would leave her rather than joining her Church gainst my will. She knows this.

I have to admit, it sometimes scares me. Arriving at a juncture such as the OP's is a real possibility. If we get engaged (probable), then perhaps there will be greater religious pressure on me.

I don't know if there is any help for you in what I have said tanko, but let me wish you all the best in any circumstance.

annR

Looks to me like The Corinthian has had some sort of bad experience with Born again Christians and is taking it out on one Christian, mikeruurds, who hasn't shared this experience. The discussion is going nowhere.

The Corinthian

mikeruurds wrote:

You are welcome to your opinion and I retain my right to have my own.

Fair enough.

annR wrote:

Looks to me like The Corinthian has had some sort of bad experience with Born again Christians and is taking it out on one Christian, mikeruurds, who hasn't shared this experience.

I’ve never had any bad experience with Born again Christians, at least no worse than with any other type of person on the planet. Tell us another one Sigmund.

The discussion is going nowhere.

Indeed. I think the original poster has drawn what he needed from the responses here and that this thread is essentially done.

Lex_Diamonds

Yes, the thread is done. But I'll just say that the rise of evangelical churches in Ireland is certainly a disturbing trend. Stay sharp people.

LegacyUser

Yes... as Lex says... they're coming for you. These Evangelical Christians want to steal your children, ban all liquor sales, take your money, breed with you daughters.

Get a life people... not one person has given any valid reasons why "born again" christians are bad. You're all just grabbing at straws and breeding paranoia, fear and doubt. I think religion has caused enough of that in this country in the past and you're just perpetuating that same attitude.

Beruthiel

TC and Mike
could you both take it to Humanities where that discussion should be
B

dudara

You beat me to it Beruthiel. I was reading this thread and getting more and more annoyed at the religiousness aspect as it went on.

Useful comments only people