Contractor VS Self Build

skywalker_208

Just looking for some advice on the above really for a new bungalow type house..

I know there are pros and cons of each.. but i have a family member who could do alot of the main work - blocks, roof and most other woodwork...

However i know a contractor would have it done much quicker with probably less hassle for me...

Any one have any thoughts on the above? I would imagine it would cause problems for regulations etc if I were to get the family member to do the work? or could i just get an engineer to outline the steps and check the work at every stage?

thanks in advance..

Fredo

Hey,
You should look at the the cost first and then the big thing with contractors is commitment, I find very difficult to have a tiler, wood floor layer... to stay on the job, they always have several jobs in parallel, at one stage I told a wood flood layer to get lost as he came in for a hour and vanished for a day or two, my neighbour has the same experience with a tiler. You must be prepared to supervise them and really be strick with them to complete the job on time and on budget, it is a hard thing to do so be prepared.
Then contractors are expensive, a trick: when they quote you for a job your next question should be: ok that's fine but how much if I pay in cash... you can have a good discount.
If you trust your family member and if he/she works well you should go for it as you can be on the job with him/her and learn great skills, there is a great sense of achievement when you build something.
As for regulation i don't know!

patrido

believe it or not, you can get very reliable and decent contractors, tilers, plumbers, etc, and you can get very unreliable family members

will your family member turn up when you want him to? will you be able to give him a bollicking if you're not happy with something? will he be working on it full time or just evenings and weekends? does he know the latest building regulations? will he take twice as long as a hired tradesman?

your decision really depends on a tradeoff between how much you want to pay, how much work you want to do yourself, and how long you want to wait before it's finished. if you're happy to find all the trades people yourself, and do all the chasing them when they don't turn up, etc, then you'll save a packet and get a great sense of satisfaction... eventually

otherwise, get a contractor.

regarding regulations, you should have an engineer regardless of which approach you take. and become familiar with the regulations yourself (the homebond house building manual is quite good) and watch whoever builds your house like a hawk. you can get away with your house not quite conforming to regulations, but it will not be as warm, efficient, dry, safe, accessible, comfortable, easy to sell and longlasting as it should be.

best of luck, and don't forget to hang out here, ask loads of questions and tell us how you're getting on

towbar

What sort of money would you expect to pay an engineer\architect to oversee the build. Is a % of the cost?

yop

towbar - I got costings of between 1200 and 3700 from engineers for the same job, sign offs, letters, certs and 5 site visits.

If you think you have no interest in building and really don't want the hassle then a builder, BUT you could still end up havin issues with the builder also!!

Cushtie

€2k my engineer is costing to look after my self build. that includes 10 site visits and all necessary paperwork for the stage payment drawdowns etc

slopey

I've been trying to make the same decison for the last week, in my case family member can do electrical & plumbing & tiling. Think we're going to go direct labour but try and keep down the number of different people we need to look after, e.g. one person for raft & site clearance, one person for timber frame, roofing and internal joinery, plasterer, blocklayer. Fingers crossed it goes ok and we get it built by our next September completion date.

Engineer is costing €1,000 for construction supervison etc, retired engineer recommended by other people.

Off topic, can anyone recommend a good general diy book(going to buy hombond book as well as recommended by patrido), Collins DIY Manual seems to have good reviews(€25 on Amazon).

yop

homebond is a very good book. Best I have seen out there but to be honest and not too many heads too big here but boards has much more knowledge on it than answers I have found in that book!!

rooferPete

Hi Skywalker,

I like Patrido's post, he covers a lot of possible problems that could turn into nightmares.

Ask both for fixed prices, a house is not a small job that you can expect a family member to dedicate the time needed where they could be losing money on their everyday job.

Family can offer a day every now and then, maybe weekends or holiday time for reduced rates or free gratis, however you must take into account they have a living to make and the cost of that living is not cheap for anyone in Ireland today.

What do you do if the family member makes an expensive mess of an important part of your new home ? if they are working for free then you can't say much.

If the contract is carried out on the basis that is purely business then you can if necessary sue a stranger for being incompetant.

Take care if dealing in cash as mentioned earlier, anyone running a business can tell you cash is only good for the holidays anymore, the revenue have a very effective system of tracking spending and they use it.

Also any contract that involves tax avoidance is not recognised as a valid contract as it is based on a criminal offence, so take care.

.

towbar

Thanks for the feedback - have found engineer to supervise builders work and sign off the paperwork €1200. Seems to be a fixed fee regardless of size or complexity of the house. Thanks again.

daveg

I too am facing this delima. We called out to our contractor last night for a price on our house. It was €50 - €60K over our budget. As you might imagine were feeling very dejected today (contractor is my GF's uncle).

Spoke to a mate of mine in work today who is nearly finishing his self build. Things have gone very smoothly for him and he is offering me his contacts if we decided to self build. He had a quick glance at my plans/costings from the contractor and feels self build would be much cheaper. Even on ground work alone (foundation etc) he spent €5K less than our quote with a simular footprint.

eddiej

Luke,

Self build - cheaper in terms of cash much more demanding in terms of time. Sister is in early stages of organising builder after getting plan permission. For the driveway (we are talkin 100m dig out, hardcore and eventually tarmac) the QS said €54K, stop laughin now, for the builder. this house is goin up in a rural area so we told off down the road talk to Johnny with the JCB and well draw away the spoil with tractor and trailer.

Can do job for less than half with local pro doin tarmac (v reputable and loads of jobs done) and I aint talkin so half assed mucka effort either. So if you are good at organising dont mind comitting and I stress this comittment go self build. What you save in cash will probably only cover you for the time you put into organising it and compensate for all the rows with the other half you will have along the way but the satisfaction of doing it yourself is priceless for everything else there is Master******.

Oh ye be sure and get an engineer

Eddie

towbar

Not sure if folks on boards agree but I think Timberframe is an easier option for the self builder. The stages are clearer and there is less dependancy on any one trades person. Lay the base, timber company supply and erect frame, add windows and at that stage a number of things can happen in parrallel - outside block work, roofing, internal plumbing and electrical. Less dependancy on any one provider.

You could contract out bits like the base and blockwork to a builder

Thoughts?

yop

Lads, ye are welcome to have a look at our blog on the self build of timber frame. You can gauge based on our experiences on whether or not you wish to take it on.

Any questions ask, just as an idea at to what stage we are at, is that I have completed the UFH last nite and am ready to start screeding at the weekend.

I think the blog might outline the issues we came up against. Only thing that I would say and I am open to contradiction, is that you really need some know how and without a doubt someone who can take a spin into town at any time of the day to get 4 or 5 bags of cement or the likes, I was lucky I had my dad to do these, would I have managed with his help, maybe, but it would have delayed things.

Another thing, if you have a good car, sell it, buy a van and don't ruin your car with dust, muck and mess!

dts

What a great site, reading your trials and tribulations puts me off ever trying to do a self build.:rolleyes:

tinofapples

Yop ,
What date did you start and when are ye expecting to be in ? In other words what are you looking at from a time scale ?

yop

DTS - To be honest I really had very little issues, so far!! Does it really put u off?

Tin - Kit arrived on the 23rd May, 5 months at it now, aim is to be in before xmas, but with the final floors, painting (2 undercoats are done upstairs), doors, stairs, skirting architrave, septic tank, tiling, kitchen and wood flooring, all to be done by myself I am beginning to doubt that time line, BUT who knows. I think we will be looking at between 7 & 8 month time line.

IF you were not to have taken on as much as we did then you would probably cut up to 2-3 months of that time line.
Roughly what we did so far was -
Sole plate installation, scaffolding, noggings, insulation, plasterboard, window cills, under floor heating, window boards, floor insulation, plastic over insulation. Prob more I cannot think of!
Each task takes its time. Especially it is so part time.

Wobs

I would definetly agree with Yop, you definetly need some know how or some with know how whos willing to give alot of help and some one available to run around for things at the last minute. You would also need to be living close to the site so you can get to it quickly and check on it regularly.

We started ours in May and hope to be in by the end of Febuary . A selfbuild will def take longer than a contractor and you may have long periods when nothing happens, but if your willing to get stuck in and do alot of work its well worth it.

noby

Slopey,
Best of luck if you go that route. One point: take that completion date of September, scrunch it up, and throw it out the window.

We naively took on the direct labour route. My BIL is a carpenter, and was willing to help, and work on the house. It ended up that he oversaw the day-to-day running of the site, aswell as taking on a lot of the work himself (he is a carpenter). In hindsight, we would have been up a famous creek without a certain rowing implement without his help.
Also, my father had retired and was able to spend time on site, or doing hardware shop runs. I'm only down the road myself aswell, and had an accomodating boss.
Going the self-build route is a very steep learning curve, even in dealing with tradesmen. You really have to stay on top of everything, prepare for every eventuality.
Things will over-run and go over budget.
Everybody looks to you, and the buck stops with you. This may seem obvious, but after the first time someone threatens to walk off site because things aren't as they specified, or material hasn't arrived, you'll make sure it won't happen again.

It, of course, is worth it in the end, but this is the house I'll grow old in, 'cos I ain't going through that again!

dts

Its the planning issues that would put me off more than the build its self. I think you were lucky Yop that you had so much help in having your plans changed.

yop

spot on there Noby, one of the biggest lessons I learned is that the family and friends who said "sure I will give you a couple of hours when you are stuck" did not stick to their word at all, especially when you needed a lift out! So don't set out on your self build with the expectations that X Y & Z will give you a hand, in our case I am afraid this doesn't happen, reason been that in fairness they have their own job/family/issues to deal with!

Ya planning can be funny alrighty!

skywalker_208

Well in my case i was thinking of giving the family member the job and actually pay for his time... so he could commit his full week to it...

slopey

Noby - Everybody is telling me the same thing about September deadline, keep thinking if I can manage the thing closely and be very organised it is possible, delusion I know, I'll just have to wait until people start breaking promises for me to wise up. I'll come back here and let you tell me "I told you so".

Planning for us was that bad that I think that the build has to be easier, 18 months, two architects, countless redesigns and managing to keep my fiancee and I both happy with house design was tough, but very excited at this stage about building and the prospect of own house that I think no matter how bad it gets the sense of satisfaction at the end will be worth all the hassle.

noby

Slopey, ok, by all means set a deadline, but just make sure it's flexible. As you come towards the end, which you will eventually, then it's good to set a target date. i.e. "We hope to be in by Christmas" It kind of focuses the mind a bit.

skywalker_208, that's pretty much what we ended up doing. Something we'll be eternally grateful to him for. He basically took a year out to build our house.

tinofapples

Slopey ,
You've had issue's with planners in Galway too ? We're 12 months down the road now and no closer to getting planning permision.

Frustrating is the word that springs to mind.

slopey

tinofapples, have you had meetings with them? We eventually got a meeting with a senior planner after about 12 months (rather than the junior ones we'd chatted to first) and while she refused our initial design, gave us good guidelines on the redesign and approved it straight away. If you are meeting with junior planners take minutes of the meeting and send it in to them asking them to add them to your planning file.

tinofapples

Haven't met with any planners as of now. That has all been left in the hands of our Engineer who's been handling our application. I recall talking to a TD some months ago and he suggested that we meet with them alright. When I mentioned this to the Engineer he said there wasn't any point.

The Engineer has told us all through 2 previous applications and even the current one that there are no issue's with our application only our water disposal.

One corner of our site has a drop down into it which our Eng originally proposed to use a our percolation are and import soil of a required nature to fill it up. That wasn't deemed appropriate.

We proposed in our 2nd application to put in a treatment system (Puraflo) on site to deal with the waste water in a safe manner. Our application was extended from May out till September to allow time for us to carry out engineering work on site. When the planner returned from his holiday 1 week before our decision was due he decided he hadn't enough information on the treatment system so "guaranteed" our Eng that we would have planning withinin 5 weeks of him receiving the additional information he wanted through a new application.

That application was submitted last week and our decision is now due on 12th December.

Problem that exists now is that our large hole on site is filling with water with the torrential rain we're gettin lately. What f**kin 6 ft hole in the ground wouldn't under the current wheather conditions ??

If the planner arrives out and finds water in the hole, bye bye another application and I think we will give up.

It's cost us money to get EPA reports done, Engineering work done and not to mention the money we've spent on rent over the last 12 months .

Our Engineer will also need to be paid .

All in all a couple of grand spent and no guarantee we'll get it.

old boy

ever dream of getting an engineer to work on a no planning permission then no fee, happens around this neck of the woods

tinofapples

Not sure they'd go for that around here. But he won't be paid the agreed fee if we don't get planning permision.

Builderwoman!

skywalker_208 wrote:

Well in my case i was thinking of giving the family member the job and actually pay for his time... so he could commit his full week to it...

We're doing a self build which I am looking after as DH is too far away from site and cannot make calls, take calls, chase people and work at the same time. We were approached by two of my bro in laws to "look after" our self build. One looked for a weekly amount which was very reasonable, he has a heart of gold but no sense of "time" so we bowed out of his offer on the grounds we knew we would never get into the house!! Second BIL asked for a serious amount of money. He would be good to deliver but boy did he ask for a lot of money for making phonecalls (and a free phone) getting quotes, chasing guys etc. We did not go with him either as it would have been a complete waste of money for something that I can do. He had a bit of the "anti woman" in building syndrome but now that the house is up I think he realises that us women can deliver!! Have to say it is a difficult and time consuming task but very very rewarding. We are so glad we went down this route. Both BIL's are still on great terms with us and our house is on target time wise (financially....now that's another issue....is is a little over budget but mainly due to upgrades in materials that we decided along the way and nothing else). I have to say that my biggest piece of advise to you would be....if you ring a tradesman for a quote, he meets you and then doesn't return your calls with a price...avoid him like the plague. If he won't afford you the courtsey of pricing a job for you he certainly won't return your calls when you are chasing him to finish his work. There are cowboys out there and steer clear and pay a little bit more to an honest decent guy who is recommended to you buy others who have used them. We have done this and thankfully have had nothing but good things to report about tradesmen (so far...probably jinxed myself saying that!!). Good luck and keep us posted on your decision.

prospect

Builderwoman! wrote:

He had a bit of the "anti woman" in building syndrome but now that the house is up I think he realises that us women can deliver!!

LOL,
My wife will agree with you here. I dealt with our builder most of the time. But when things were going pear-shaped, or deadlines were waayyyyy overdue, she'd put in one call and I'm telling you, it got done.
I think alot of these builder types, particularly the old school ones, are afraid of 'the woman scorned'!

Builderwoman!

Glad to hear that us women can get things done! I have to say I have had nothing but good things to say about all the trades that I am dealing with. I only found one messer which I spotted a mile off at quotation stage and needless to say did not give him the job despite his price being good.
Tradesmen/reps etc find it a bit strange to be meeting a woman and not a man but I don't make any apologies for it....just get on with it. My mother in law thinks I am crazy looking after the building!! I have been dealing with a blocklayer that was recommended by member of our carpentry team and I was told by the other carpenter that this blocklayer was impossible to deal with and to get to finish stuff, meet deadlines etc and that if you went tough on him he would disappear on you. Our carpenter has been highly amused that this blocklayer has been jumping through hoops to keep me happy! He even came back and changed window sizes for me without charging me and has all in all been fine to deal with. I do think sometimes that it helps being a woman - a different mix of hormones or something!! I can also bargain much better than hubby so we have got some good value along the way.