St. James Student Nurses - Protest (TCD)

wheresthebeef

Hi guys,
Just wondering if any of you heard about the student nurses from TCD on pickett at James on Friday. They were campaigning for the abolition of a e100 fee for immunisation against Hepatitis for unpaid student nurses. St. James Hospital is the only linked Health Care Provider for Trinity College which charges this fee.
The Students got great media attention on RTE SixOne News, Sky News Ireland at 7pm, 98FM, FM104, Spin1038, Belfield FM, and today in the Irish Times and Irish Independant.

The Official INO Press Release is located here - http://www.ino.ie/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?TabID=6129&ItemID=5284&mid=8026

I know Med Students, SALT, Occ Ther and Dentistry Students all have to pay well in advance. What do ye think of this? Why are we being asked to pay more, in order to train to serve in the public domain? Is our health and safety not a concern? Do the hospitals not have a duty of care towards us?

It is appaling that as National Immunisation Week comes to a close, that Irelands largest acute hospital refuses to vaccinate its students for free in order to safe guard their health and safety and the safety of our patients.

"If there was a vaccine for MRSA, would they make us pay for that too?"

snorlax

well i had to pay the fee, i don't why the same shouldn't apply to all health science, why don't you get everyone involved?

DrIndy

Nursing students are a specific case, different to other courses in that they receive their uniforms and vaccines free (which will in a couple years apply to all health sciences).

the issue is not that they should pay or not to pay - but that the department of health has given st. james's the money to vaccinate ALL the nursing students, but the hospital is insisting they should pay on top of that and pilfer the money given to them. Hence Tallaght and mater students don't pay, but st. james's is insisting on it......

wheresthebeef

thats exactly it.

We would love to get all the students involved. If anyone in Health Science for St. James is interested please contact me at david@netsoc.tcd.ie
Or in fact health sciences anywhere.

There will be a meeting for student reps from trinity, ucd and dcu for other issues in hospitals affecting students. I cant see any reason why we cant get together as a Student Health Proffessional group and thrash out our problems and support each other.

Dr. Indy, your dead right. when these hospitals put in their estimates for the year, i'm sure they include vaccination expenses. St. James Hospital also refused to pay travel allowances last year to its first years. This has hopefully been sorted now.

Chick

DrIndy wrote:

the issue is not that they should pay or not to pay - but that the department of health has given st. james's the money to vaccinate ALL the nursing students, but the hospital is insisting they should pay on top of that and pilfer the money given to them. Hence Tallaght and mater students don't pay, but st. james's is insisting on it......

But St.James's is saying is that basically the student nurses aren't contracted to them, hence they don't owe them anything (as of yet!) so why should they have to pay for HepB vacc's or mantoux tests etc.

Thank God I'm not St.James's, wouldn't like to be involved in all that mess, it is extremely unfair that James's is the only hospital still holding out. We're only in 2nd year and already putting up with such ****, what'll it be like when we actually qualify... eek.

At least the INO have their heads screwed on anyway:rolleyes:

Stargal

St. Jame's don't have the duty of care to the nurses - Trinity does.

The protest was fuelled by an INO rep who was there to agitate the troops and make an issue out of a non-issue. The protest achieved nothing and has made the conditions for all the 1st year student nurses very difficult

wheresthebeef

actually stargal, the idea of the protest was started by the student nurses themselves. we called in the ino. originally, the students were going to go it alone, but we called in the INO on wednesday/thursday and asked them to send a representative for friday morning.

This is an issue. Many of these students could not afford to pay. and the shouldnt have to. St. James Hospital claim they owe no duty of care to the students because they are not employee's, however these students will be employees during the third year of their course. St. James would have had a duty of care at that stage, all we want them to do is recognise their rights sooner rather than later.

The protest achieved everything we wanted it to. Our aim was to allow the students to receive their vaccinations, without pre-paying. We succeeded in that. The issue of payment is now a secondary concern, that is how we wanted it. We now have time to dispute the fee through legal channels.

This is not the first time St. james hospital have tryed to pull a fast one on their students, nor will it be the last. But its the last time they get away with it without a fight.

If these students had been Drug Users, or Prostitutes they would be entitled to these vaccinations for free!!!

Instead they are people who have chosen a difficult career in the public service to try and help people through life and death, and are not given the decency of protection of their own health.

Stargal, are you a health sciences student?

DrIndy

I also encouraged the demos when in the student union.

the issue is that since the end of the diploma course and the creation of the degree course, although all nursing students are college students on university buildings, the hospital they are linked to still receives funding for certain aspects that were received by the diploma students notably the uniform grant and the vaccinations and the travel allowance.

The bottom line is the HSE and the DoH has GIVEN the money already in fullo to st. james's to do this, but St. James's are trying to pilfer the money and force the students to pay.

wheresthebeef

DrIndy, you have hit the nail on the head.
Thank you.

As a point of information, the DoHC are trying to rid themselves of the responsibility of funding training of Student Nurses (and perhaps other Health Sciences) and trying to send it back in the direction of Dept. of Education.
This is an issue that is being discussed at the next School of Nursing and Midwifery Committee Meeting.

Government in three words: "......pillar to post....."

Vorsprung

i'm a ucd med student, we got all our vaccines free. can't believe james's are messing around the students like this, it's an absolute joke. best of luck with your protest

Time Magazine

€100 per student nurse is a lot of money to the students, and (if justified) deserves a protest.

But, in other news the government recently wasted €60 for EVERY 15-65 year old in the country, over €90 per person in the Labour Force, on a payroll system for the Department of Health.

Protest, anyone?

wheresthebeef

there should be a protest. but people don't directly feel the money leaving their pocket. Government waste has become such a cliché nowadays, even though its a reality.

DrIndy

wheresthebeef wrote:

DrIndy, you have hit the nail on the head.
Thank you.

As a point of information, the DoHC are trying to rid themselves of the responsibility of funding training of Student Nurses (and perhaps other Health Sciences) and trying to send it back in the direction of Dept. of Education.
This is an issue that is being discussed at the next School of Nursing and Midwifery Committee Meeting.

Government in three words: "......pillar to post....."

The reason for this was that there required a sea change in the education system of nurses - and the DoHC were aware of this, but the DoE refused to fund it by the £100 million plus recurrent to make it happen so the DoHC stumped up the cash for the first few years and are handing it back as agreed to DoE. As there will be change of department there may be changes of funding, but in essence it is simply money from another pot and should NOT mean a reduction.

wheresthebeef

DrIndy, I am aware of the issue of DoE taking over Nurse Training as of 2006. Its likely, that there is going to be a significant reduction in funding which is going to jeopardise the viability of certain courses and that staff numbers will be reduced.


DrIndy, can you comment on how you reckon funding levels wont be affected? I am just curious, because i cant find anything which says this, in fact i have only seen information on the contrary.

Dr Galen

i know its been a while but as an INO student official I'd just like to say that the protest that we had in James had a knock on effect for the rest of the country. showing that student nurses were no longer happy to accept verything that came their way. Students in other colleges where fees were imposed in the past have not had to pay all because of the James students actions.

I'd also welcome input from med students, student physios/ot/dieticians and any other student healthcare professional with a view to beginning to form a united front, as many issues affect us all!

Keep on with the struggle guys. We'll get our rewards someday!

snorlax

well our union is terrible for supporting it's students(AOTI). i was shipped down the country, excepted to get accomdation with a week's notice and to pay for it out of my own pocket...including all extra prices for food/ transport that i wouldn't have to pay if i was at home (and no access to library as it's only open 2hours on saturday, and iv an impendiung essay and thesis to get done:()...college gives not one cent because they just assume we can all afford it...i can't even email the head of the union as she's one of my lecturers too ...i actually hate my department for not providing advocacy for its students...twice in a row i'v been sent down the country (am from dublin) and some people have never got sent. i could email our convenor but i don't really think that would be much good...

Dr Galen

what course are you doing. You'd be surprised what people are like outside of college.

I've met several people through our union that i thought little of from work, but have been supportive to our causes in outside of work/college. do you not have a student section?

snorlax

im doing OT. i think it's 10eur for student's membership (i'm still a member).but we don't have any elected student representatives so i don't think our voice has really been heard loud enough, otherwise our lecturers would be canvasing for subsidies towards covering extra expenditure endured from doing placements outside your locale.
although they can't control places that cancel/ drop out of fieldwork placements (like what happened me), they have no communication with us whatsoever which means you could be in dublin and shipped to Athlone for placement or vise versa, you location isn't taken into account as placements have become harder to get with the other two colleges competing for placements so it's a case of take what you get.

wheresthebeef

the issue with that is that is, i reckon, to do with the changeover to university based teaching. each hospital still has its own educational staff, and some hospitals still have a "School of Nursing" still in situ, and have been reluctant to let go off their responsibilities as the sole educator of health care professionals, to such a degree that college provides academic support and hospitals supply practical education and neither interferes in the running of the other.
In relation to nursing, there is a "Joint working group" where the hospitals meet the college officials, but its on a very negotiable basis, and not all the hospitals actually turn up for the meetings.
To be honest, Trinity College Dublin should shoulder the full responsibility and accountability for my entire education as a student nurse. I applied to Trinity College through the CAO, if i was paying fee's i'd be paying them to trinity etc... However if i have problems on placement, trinity doesnt want to know.
We asked our course co-ordinator to contact St. James in relation to vaccination charges and she refused saying it was out of her remit, and all she could do was advise us to speak to James.

After the James protest, i believe a class of student nurses at DCU protested and escaped paying fee's to a Psychiatric Health Service Provider.

Dr Galen

also, several hospital authorities looked at what happened outside james and decided they didn't want to have a similar thing outsie thier gates and decided to go inot consultation about fee's. connolly in vlanch being one such place. as of yet no one has paid in these places.

a sign that a bit of positive action works wonders sometimes if carried out properly.

Dr Galen

im doing OT. i think it's 10eur for student's membership (i'm still a member).but we don't have any elected student representatives so i don't think our voice has really been heard loud enough,

unfortunately all i can recommend is getting a few of you together and write to your General Sec and your preseident and request a meeting to air your views. It takes a few motivated individuals to get the ball rolling but you will find that people will get involved.

although they can't control places that cancel/ drop out of fieldwork placements (like what happened me), they have no communication with us whatsoever which means you could be in dublin and shipped to Athlone for placement or vise versa,

shouldn't be your problem. your a TCD student and as beefy says here its about time the college starting taking some responsibility for their students and stop passing the buck.

you location isn't taken into account as placements have become harder to get with the other two colleges competing for placements so it's a case of take what you get

we have the same problem in nursing. too many students are being taken in to cope with the vast inadequacies (?) in the health service, the idea being that pushing the students through will help alleviate the various crises in the health service.

and before anyone thinks that this is just a nursing issue its not. A&E is a huge issue for everyone. as is the Pay claim that nurses are currently discussing. but wider issues exist......you can wait for weeks to see an OT in most dublin hospitals unless your an emergency for one!

snorlax

one of my friends knows someone who is in the moderate stages of dementia and was put on a prority waiting list to see an OT. only catch is waiting list is 6months long..and that varies on your locale/ setting you work in. services for kids with Autism are often even worse and you don't get access to services until your kid gets diagnosed, Paediatricians often find it hard to diagnose kids as autistic and are often reluctant to do so...early intervention can go a long towards remediating syptoms and preventing them getting worse.

personally i think the whole health sector is badly managed and i'd wadger a guess and say the inadequacies go far beyond some of the problems we've mentioned above. in the long term working in understaffed areas can only lead to professional burnout and people leaving their careers completely or else becoming less effective/ empathetic praticioners. so i think it it's in everyones interests economically and otherwise to make sure these problems are addressed.

Dr Galen

you'd think so! but the DoH strategy seems to be to recruit more managers and admins to project manage and file the issues in the health service under a nice commitee working title for review in 2009!

seriously though student mobilisation is the key! any help that i can give just let me know, even if its just a chat and a bit of guidance on the setting up of a viable student section of your union etc etc. I might not have the answers you need/want but i'll try and point you in th right direction.

snorlax

well i would definetly like to do that problem us i'm being shipped down the country in a few hours to start my nine week placement...hmm i wish more people in my class we're like that, most seem to be a bit apathetic unless it directly affects them.