America Should ask why it is hated.

Digi_Tilmitt

America should look around and see its unhumane disgraceful polices when it comes to the middle east(and other issues too.) Its outright support of Israel when Israel is blatently in the wrong is a disgrace and shows that, freedom the thing America claims ownership of comes second to 'economic interests.'

What the Terrorists did was horribly wrong but George Bush brought this suffering upon his own people by his foreign polices. America ignors this and claims that no one could possibly hate America.

They need to wake up! Terrorists kill for a reason.

As I have said I think the attacks are a disgrace and the Terrorists could have at least givin a five minuet warning or something to save a few innocent people.

Nagilum

Only a European would be so naive as to think smoeone who would crash themselves into the side of a building could be reasoned with.

This attack has been planned for years. The reason Bin Laden hates the US so much is probably because he blames us for being exiled from Saudi Arabia.

He tried to take down the towers in 1993, remember? Or were you even born then?

Digi_Tilmitt

Originally posted by Nagilum
Only a European would be so naive as to think smoeone who would crash themselves into the side of a building could be reasoned with.

This attack has been planned for years. The reason Bin Laden hates the US so much is probably because he blames us for being exiled from Saudi Arabia.

He tried to take down the towers in 1993, remember? Or were you even born then?

If the US stopped there unfair polices in the Middle East People wouldn't fly planes into their buildings. It doesn't justify it but America need to see how they can improve their polices.

Nagilum

What are you, a terrorist psychologist? How can you possibly claim that they will stop if we change policy? How can you know their motives?

Didn't you see the celebrations in the Islamic world? These children are taught from the time they are born that America and Americans are "The Great Satan". You cannot reason with hate like that.

chernobyl

Originally posted by Digi_Tilmitt


If the US stopped there unfair polices in the Middle East People wouldn't fly planes into their buildings. It doesn't justify it but America need to see how they can improve their polices.

no.
Binladen's hatred of the US began as a child.
and as for "America improving their policies for the ME" i dont think so, America will never be *nice* to the ME now nor play fair game with them.
its game over.
Unfortunatley the US will not do the right thing in the ME [ie]go in with soldiers and kill/get [preferably get him and lock him up for good] binladen and his soldiers, they will unfortunatley bomb bomb bomb and blow up Asprin factories and the like.

Digi_Tilmitt

Perhaps there is no direct way of fixing the problem but a bit of compromise could help a lot. The side that makes the first gesture of good faith could achieve alot.

Nagilum

I'm amazed how you Irish seem to want to interject so much about military strategy and what the US will do. Pretty brazen for a bunch of people who sat on the sideline during WW2.

As a side note, I seriously doubt that there are any pill factories in Afghanistan. Although, one has to ask, why didn't Bin Laden spend his billion dollars to build one rather than spending it on "getting even" with America?

EDIT: GESTURE??? of Good Faith?!? What in God's name are you talking about? Please tell me you aren't REALLY that naive.

What would be a gesture of good faith on their part? Only killing 4000 next time?

chernobyl

what did Clinton hit when he bombed the afghans?

Nagilum

The pill factory incident was in Sudan, yoohoo

National Lampoon

Hobbes

Originally posted by Nagilum
The reason Bin Laden hates the US so much is probably because he blames us for being exiled from Saudi Arabia.

No, I don't think it's that at all. Unless his exile has to do with the US training him in terrorism.

You would want to be smoking crack that these people are just doing it for a personal grudge.

Let's take a person in NY (hypothetical). Let's say when the building blew up it killed thier friends, thier job, thier family and ended up forcing them out onto the street poor and starving.

Now give that guy a gun and tell him what country did it to him. What do you think he would do?

Now do you think that person with the gun could be reasoned with?

Nagilum

Why are you guys so insistant upon seeing the terrorists as you would see any normal citizen?

I'm just curious. What would you all have America do if not retalliate? If Taliban regime will not hand Bin Laden over, should the US just give up on it?

And Bin Laden's hate DOES come from his exile from Saudi Arabia thank you very much. He has said as much in his interviews. He also hates the Saudi government for allowing the US to provide them protection from Iraq during the gulf war and very much resents the fact that there are still American bases there.

Side Note: The American govt. provided over 100 million dollors in foreign aid to Afghanistan for things like food and clothes in year 2000.

gandalf

Nagilum,

Read what Hobbes has said, now picture that person as a Palestinian.

Gandalf.

gandalf

Originally posted by Nagilum
I'm amazed how you Irish seem to want to interject so much about military strategy and what the US will do. Pretty brazen for a bunch of people who sat on the sideline during WW2.

If you had a clue about Irish History you would realise why Ireland did not take part in WW2. One Ireland was a new nation not 20 Years old when WW2 broke out, Secondly Ireland still viewed Britain with Distrust back then, we had fought a War of Independence against them in 1919. Ireland had also gone through a Civil War in the early 20's as well. While been Neutral Ireland was biased (fairly strongly towards the Allies).

Please check your facts before you post drivel again. I suppost your one of those idiots that tell anyone English that you won the War for them as well.

Gandalf.

Nagilum

So what? The US is not doing it to Palestine, Israel is. And don't give me the crapp about Israel having US weapons. We sold them those weapons to defend their country in wars where they were attacked first.

Bottom line, we sell weapons to a lot of our allies. I often don't agree with it, but so what. If they're problem was with Israel, they should've crashed the planes into Tel Aviv.

Now, they've brought the fight straight to America. The average, reasonable person can see that it was going to do no good, but the Islamic fundamentalist who believes and has been taught from birth the the US and Americans are the greatest evil on the planet somehow sees this as a victory to kill 6000 people.

I ask again: What would you have the US do if you were in control after this situation?

Nagilum

Originally posted by gandalf


If you had a clue about Irish History you would realise why Ireland did not take part in WW2. One Ireland was a new nation not 20 Years old when WW2 broke out, Secondly Ireland still viewed Britain with Distrust back then, we had fought a War of Independence against them in 1919. Ireland had also gone through a Civil War in the early 20's as well. While been Neutral Ireland was biased (fairly strongly towards the Allies).

Please check your facts before you post drivel again. I suppost your one of those idiots that tell anyone English that you won the War for them as well.

Gandalf.

FYI: I know plenty about Irish history and plenty about WW2, including the fact that Churchill offered Ireland a chance at unity if they would join the British side in fighting the Germans. I also know that your PM called to give condolances to the Nazi regime after Hitler died. I also know that thousands of Jews were denied entry to your country and inevitibly died as a result and I also know that many say Ireland allowed German subs to refuel in her ports while attempting to blockade the UK (although not proven).

I do not believe we won the war for the English, either. I believe that when western Europe fell like a house of cards to the German blitzkreig, one nation stood strong. One nation fought. One nation did not allow evil to win. That nation was the UK. Ireland had that same chance to take a stand against the evil, and failed.

gandalf

Hmm so what, nice attitude mate. OK 1stly Israel, it is a US problem, the unbalanced way that the US has dealt with this region is unbelieveable. Israel is illegially occupying land that is not theirs, but wait this isn't propaganda its a 30 Year old UN resolution just check the link. http://www.un.org/documents/sc/res/1967/s67r242e.pdf

So the US is aiding a country thats in contravention of a UN resolution but isn't that the justification for them going in after Bin Laden. The Taliban have said if the US provide them with evidence then they will hand him over, to allow them to save face then this is the approach the US should take, allow them to hand him over to the International Criminal Court, try him, convict him, chuck him in prision and leave him rot for the rest of his life.

As I have said before this attack was planned in detail and part f this planning was the expected backlash from the US, if you respond like they have planned you could start something in the middle east that will get very ugly.

Nagilum one question for you, what do you think should be the US's reaction, I'm just curious.

Gandalf.

Conorbreslin

Nagilum you're a fool. Im not going to dignify you're last message with a response, suffice it to say you're a fool.

BKtje

FFS what are you two taking about
What relevance does this have on ANYTHING
Ireland did what it had to do for survival at that time. And yes afaik ireland was Biased towards the Allies. Many irish men fought in the war.... now to important items

Yes the ppl who attacked the States should be brough to justice, yes i want the US to enter afghanistan by force if neccesary and grab Bin Laden but what i dont want is for the US to bomb a poor miserable country full of innocents ( like the innocents inside the WTC). These people are barely surviving under current conditions as it is. If the US bomb it then most of these people will die and the ppl who need to be brought to justice will survive as they have hte money to buy whats needed to defend/feed/cloth themselves.
Yes these people were laughing but they have been brought up wrong and isnt as such their fault. Get the bastards who did the terrorist attacks but leave the innocents alone...

gandalf

Originally posted by Nagilum


FYI: I know plenty about Irish history and plenty about WW2, including the fact that Churchill offered Ireland a chance at unity if they would join the British side in fighting the Germans.

Not quite, he actually threatened to invade us if we didn't allow him to use Cobh (a seaport in the South of Ireland) and one that was put back under Irish control from the British in 1938 (I think). We held firm against this.

I also know that your PM called to give condolances to the Nazi regime after Hitler died.

True and it was a major mistake by him.

I also know that thousands of Jews were denied entry to your country

Your proof of this please.

I also know that many say Ireland allowed German subs to refuel in her ports while attempting to blockade the UK (although not proven).

Total bollix. First who said this ?

As I said Ireland had a biased Neutrality, an example any Allied Airmen that crashed or landed in Ireland were returned quietly to the allies rapidly, on the other hand all Germans were interred until the end of the war.

I do not believe we won the war for the English, either. I believe that when western Europe fell like a house of cards to the German blitzkreig, one nation stood strong. One nation fought. One nation did not allow evil to win. That nation was the UK. Ireland had that same chance to take a stand against the evil, and failed.

Well alot of your countrymen do make that assumption. Ireland made a choice as a Nation to be Neutral so did Switzerland. Remember the US only joined when it was attacked, if Pearl Harbour never happened then the US may have never joined the war, where would your high horse be then.

Gandalf.

Nagilum

Maybe you missed the part where I stipulated that the Taliban not hand Bin Laden over. Obviously, if the Taliban hand him over, it makes things much easier. No one is predicting that, however, and you chose to ignore part of my question and take the easy way out...not surprising.

As for stating that I'm a fool, I'm afraid that isn't much of an argument.

What would I do? First, I'd find every foreign national from the states that support terrorism who are here on student visas and tourist visas. I'd issue no more visas and revoke the ones that have already been issued...you've got 7 days, start packing. What do we expect when we teach Iraqis or Afghanis subjects like nuclear engineering and microbiology. Common sense says that you shouldn't teach your enemy to kill you. The second thing is, you watch the rest of the Islamic foreign nationals here from countries like Saudi Arabia and UAE and Sudan like hawks. Before you all start screaming civil liberties at me, let me just reiterate that I'm only talking about foreign nationals, not citizens, and even then only from states known to have terrorists.

The second thing I'd do is pretty much exactly what Bush is doing. See if you can get the Taliban to hand over Bin Laden and his organization. But, as I said, no one really expects that to happen...soo...

The third thing I would do is start wiping out Afghani troops, from the air. Yes, its sad. Yes, its terrible. But, if the Taliban leadership are going to hide behind these guys, what choice do we have? Besides, the Taliban are showing little strategy by massing their troops along the border of Pakistan. A few napalm strikes from the air at night and the ones left alive will hopefully try to surrender as many of the Iraqis did.

The fourth thing is, send out a hundred or so UAV to scour the ground all over Afghanistan and find out exactly where everyone is hiding. You note all the hideouts where you can see weapons stashed, then study the film, your intelligence, and do everything you can to find out which one of those is Bin Laden. Paratroop in Delta Force with helicopter cover to take him out. If he wasn't there, keep doing it until he is.

There should be constant surveillance over every square inch of Afghanistan starting yesterday. If we don't have 100 UAVs in the air, we don't have enough. And if Bin Laden moves at all from whatever rat hole he is hiding in, the Delta Force or Seals should go in and take him out.

Yes, sending in those troops on the ground may cause American casualties, but I speak for the armed forces and I say its a price we're willing to pay.

Yes, there probably will be retribution against civillians at home, but they would keep using terrorism against us anyway if we don't kill them first. We do this one cell at a time. Take them out, leave not a one standing. Shut them down. And after they are gone, make sure the governments where they once were to make sure they are in fact preventing new ones from cropping up.

Additionally, we need to follow the money trail. All these oil tycoon billionaires in Saudi Arabia who give money to bin Laden and his organization need to be arrested and all their assets go to the state. Also, Bin Laden may have billions, but it isn't stuffed in a pillow in Afghanistan. Its probably laundered and sitting in a Swiss bank somewhere, maybe even one of our own banks. Those assets need to be found and frozen. If Switzerland will not comply, they should have full sanctions placed upon them.

Lastly, I know many of you will scream that in this solution, civilians will surely die. Well, again I say, if the Taliban is going to hide behind their civillians, it is tragic, but we have little choice. Just remember, one of the reasons you fight is because you believe that your citizens are more valuable than theirs.

Chaos-Engine

Originally posted by Nagilum

Didn't you see the celebrations in the Islamic world? These children are taught from the time they are born that America and Americans are "The Great Satan". You cannot reason with hate like that.

DON'T BELIEF EVERYTHING U SEE ON TV.... So u saw some arabs celebrate the bombings.... ASk Why... ANy way that was SOME... Not all...

adnans

wow, your thoughts scare the hell out of me Nagilum. the incident last week was scary enough to last me another few years but your proposal on what you think US should do in this situation are based on your governments already too familiar policy when dealing with Middle East. and there is no stopping, is there?

it also seems that your anger and emotions took over your discussion when you lashed out at irish people nearly stopping short of calling them cowards for their neutrality in the WW2.

as chaos-engine just said, dont believe everything you see on TV. in front of you there is an immense library of information called the internet. it's not in the profit making business or under anyone's government influence, it's independent. use it before it becomes too late.

So what? The US is not doing it to Palestine, Israel is. And don't give me the crapp about Israel having US weapons...

this is not only because of Israel dont you know. fifty years of US support for ever more oppressive and intolerant regimes such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt or Pakistan, the overthrow of elected governments as in Iran, turning a blind eye to Sadam's chemical warfare against Kurds or Asad's massacre of Muslim Brothers, the selling of weapons of mass destruction to anyone with money to burn (F-16s and M-16s in great quantity will do as much damage as a nuclear bomb), even aiding the Taliban (most recently with $43 million) as long as they joined US's other "war," on drugs - no free nation on earth would give them a cent, but US gave them a gift of $43 million because they said they had "banned all drugs" - all these activities have done little to endear ordinary Muslim or Arab citizens to America and its purported values of freedom and democracy.

the violence that started last week makes me think that this is only a beggining of a long and destructive war. your refusal, even now, to look honestly at the US's sad and dishonorable relationship with the Middle East makes such an outcome all the more likely. this will be a great insult to the thousands lost in the rubble of tuesday, dont you think?

adnans

Gargoyle

If it takes 50,000 or even 100,000 afghanis to die before this thing is over, then that's the way it has to be. If they want to fight instead of than handing over Bin Laden's and all his gang, then they are barely less guilty than Bin Laden himself. However, the bottom line is that our civilians ARE more valuable than theirs.

What contributions have their citizens made to the world? Now how about ours? Which people would you rather have on the earth?

Hobbes

Originally posted by Nagilum
So what? The US is not doing it to Palestine, Israel is. And don't give me the crapp about Israel having US weapons. We sold them those weapons to defend their country in wars where they were attacked first.

Not only does the US supply them weapons they also supply them funds.

Oh and they were attacked first however you should study the history of why it came about.

The Jewish goverment realised that at a certain point that the Muslims would have a goverment majority soon (due to population explosion) and moved them out of the country to stop them getting control. Imagine being forced out of your home and business, you would be pretty pissed too.

Why are you guys so insistant upon seeing the terrorists as you would see any normal citizen?

Actually we don't. Irish and English people have had to live with Terrorism for quite a few years (and as mentioned before, funded by the US as well).

The one thing we realise is that just because a terrorist is Catholic or Prodestant doesn't mean that those people who are also Catholic or Prodestant are terrorists.

Afganistan's orginal population is not the Taliban, they took over the country (and only 3 other countries reconise them as goverment). Going in bombing the country will hurt no one except innocent civies who are already starving.

As I mentioned, most terrorism comes about because of the example I gave eariler.

What do we expect when we teach Iraqis or Afghanis subjects like nuclear engineering and microbiology. Common sense says that you shouldn't teach your enemy to kill you.

You know that is whats really pissing me off in all this. The amount of hate crime that is happening in the US at the moment. Most of the people being attacked are just as outraged and are probably more American then a lot of others here. Heck people are beating up Sikh's and Hindu's, talk about being ****ing stupid.

I believe there is only one race who can claim the original settlers of the US.

As for teaching your enemy? The US did.

Btw go look up on US history about Japanese Interment camps and what the US did to the American-Japanese people. That kind of thing should never happen again.

Maybe if you take a step back from your blind hatred and revenge and maybe suggest something which can deal with the situation without hurting innocent people (and I don't mean the terrorists). If you have to hurt innocents then it makes you no better then the terrorists.

Hobbes

Originally posted by Gargoyle
What contributions have their citizens made to the world? Now how about ours? Which people would you rather have on the earth?

Well if your the typical example of "ours" then I don't think we deserve to be here either.

Nagilum

Originally posted by Hobbes


You know that is whats really pissing me off in all this. The amount of hate crime that is happening in the US at the moment. Most of the people being attacked are just as outraged and are probably more American then a lot of others here. Heck people are beating up Sikh's and Hindu's, talk about being ****ing stupid.

I believe there is only one ...ranting...ranting <snip>

You should be a politician Hobbes. You have a remarkable ability to ignore parts of an argument for your convenince. Lets look at what I said again, shall we?

I'd find every FOREIGN NATIONAL from the states that support terrorism who are here on student visas and tourist visas. I'd issue no more visas and revoke the ones that have already been issued...you've got 7 days, start packing. What do we expect when we teach Iraqis or Afghanis subjects like nuclear engineering and microbiology. Common sense says that you shouldn't teach your enemy to kill you. The second thing is, you watch the rest of the Islamic foreign nationals here from countries like Saudi Arabia and UAE and Sudan like hawks. Before you all start screaming civil liberties at me, let me just reiterate that I'm only talking about foreign nationals, not citizens, and even then only from states known to have terrorists.

Nevertheless, I do agree that its sad that people are reacting that way. Most Muslims are good people and I know some (I wonder, do you?). I'm talking about foreign nationals here, not citizens. This is nothing like the internment camps in WW2.

As someone said earlier:

Please check your facts before you post drivel again.

Then again, its painfully obvious that you blatantly ignored the facts to try and accuse me of being racist. Sad Hobbes, sad.

Nagilum

Originally posted by adnans
wow, your thoughts scare the hell out of me Nagilum. the incident last week was scary enough to last me another few years but your proposal on what you think US should do in this situation are based on your governments already too familiar policy when dealing with Middle East. and there is no stopping, is there?[/B]

You're right adnans, it would be far more comforting if we did absolutely nothing and allowed Osama to sit behind his Taliban regime until he develops or otherwise acquires weapons of mass destruction.

it also seems that your anger and emotions took over your discussion when you lashed out at irish people nearly stopping short of calling them cowards for their neutrality in the WW2.

If it looks like a duck and acts like a duck...

as chaos-engine just said, dont believe everything you see on TV. in front of you there is an immense library of information called the internet. it's not in the profit making business or under anyone's government influence, it's independent. use it before it becomes too late.

I get nearly all my information from the internet. And, SURPRISE, not all of it is from anti-american websites looking for any reason possible to criticise capitolism.

this is not only because of Israel dont you know. fifty years of US support for ever more oppressive and intolerant regimes such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt or Pakistan, the overthrow of elected governments as in Iran, turning a blind eye to Sadam's chemical warfare against Kurds or Asad's massacre of Muslim Brothers, the selling of weapons of mass destruction to anyone with money to burn (F-16s and M-16s in great quantity will do as much damage as a nuclear bomb), even aiding the Taliban (most recently with $43 million) as long as they joined US's other "war," on drugs - no free nation on earth would give them a cent, but US gave them a gift of $43 million because they said they had "banned all drugs" - all these activities have done little to endear ordinary Muslim or Arab citizens to America and its purported values of freedom and democracy.

As stated previously, I believe the US has been far to interventionist in the last many years. (I'm a libertarian so I believe in virtually no intervention) However, all that is in the past and now we've been attacked and the question is how we will respond to it.

the violence that started last week makes me think that this is only a beggining of a long and destructive war. your refusal, even now, to look honestly at the US's sad and dishonorable relationship with the Middle East makes such an outcome all the more likely. this will be a great insult to the thousands lost in the rubble of tuesday, dont you think?

You must think I'm much more important than I really am. Thanks! Oh, and to answer your question, no. I do not believe that killing all those responsible for this travesty is a "great insult to the thousands lost in the rubble of tuesday." Even if in doing so we kill civilians. We will save more lives in the long run, as we did with the horrible, but correct, decision to drop the atom bomb on Japan.

PS- Do me a favour and PLEASE don't say I'm suggesting an A-bomb here when you know I'm not.

bonkey

Originally posted by Nagilum
Common sense says that you shouldn't teach your enemy to kill you. The second thing is, you watch the rest of the Islamic foreign nationals here from countries like Saudi Arabia and UAE and Sudan like hawks.

This is patently ridiculous. You are basically advocating that America never allow another middle-eastern national, or someone of middle-eastern descent into their country ever again. Add to that an additional religious discrimination.

The very things which America have been touting as the factors that make them the greatest nation on earth (freedom, tolerance, etc) are the things which you now want to completely deny to a massive amount of people for no sane reason.

Furthermore, will you also deny people access to the US on holidays? Business Visits? Maybe you've forgotten just why America is so involved in the Middle East - a small matter of oil?

Before you all start screaming civil liberties at me, let me just reiterate that I'm only talking about foreign nationals, not citizens, and even then only from states known to have terrorists.

And their neighbours, and any person who shares the same religion as the people in these countries, and, and and....

Maybe you should go and look at the nationalities of the alleged hijackers. They do not come from nations which advocate or support terrorism.

The third thing I would do is start wiping out Afghani troops, from the air. Yes, its sad. Yes, its terrible. But, if the Taliban leadership are going to hide behind these guys, what choice do we have? Besides, the Taliban are showing little strategy by massing their troops along the border of Pakistan. A few napalm strikes from the air at night and the ones left alive will hopefully try to surrender as many of the Iraqis did.

The fourth thing is, send out a hundred or so UAV to scour the ground all over Afghanistan and find out exactly where everyone is hiding. You note all the hideouts where you can see weapons stashed, then study the film, your intelligence, and do everything you can to find out which one of those is Bin Laden. Paratroop in Delta Force with helicopter cover to take him out. If he wasn't there, keep doing it until he is.

And with this you show your complete lack of unserstanding of the Afghan nation. The Russians occupied the country, lost 20,000 men, and ran away licking their wounds. At one point in the past, Afghanistan successfully held a two-front war with the British and the Russians.

When while occupying the nation they could not defeat the Afghans. Sure, America has better tech, but you have no idea how desolate an area Aghanistan is. 100 UAVs? You must be joking. Its a big country. There are a lot of people. You think you can just go and spot one? Hell, Bin Laden could hide in a cave with a handful of others, and you'd never find him. You could invade the country, pick it apart inch by inch with troops, and you still wouldnt find him.

There should be constant surveillance over every square inch of Afghanistan starting yesterday. If we don't have 100 UAVs in the air, we don't have enough. And if Bin Laden moves at all from whatever rat hole he is hiding in, the Delta Force or Seals should go in and take him out.

Yes, sending in those troops on the ground may cause American casualties, but I speak for the armed forces and I say its a price we're willing to pay.

If America invades Afghanistan and expects to subdue it with military might, expect another Vietnam. "American causalties"? America has forgotten the meaning of the word. This wouldnt be another Desert Storm. You're not fighting a rich nation who has a well-equipped but poorly trained military like Iraq. You are fighting a nation who will do what it takes to beat out the invaders. Expect guerrilla warfare on a scale the Americans havent experienced since they got their asses handed to them in Vietnam.

And after they are gone, make sure the governments where they once were to make sure they are in fact preventing new ones from cropping up.

Huh? You now want the US to invade a foreign country, remove its government, and make sure that said country never elects an anti-American government ever again? Basically, you want the US to run the country by proxy, in perpituity. Hello? The people of this nation get no choice? Or they get freedom of choice, as long as they do what the US wants? And assuming the US could even achieve this....you think every other nation in the world will sit idly by and watch the US basically take control of a country who it happened to have a disagreement with the government of?

Whats next? Send the US into Iran for supporting terrorism and try the same there? Then maybe the rest of the Middle East, just to be sure?

Additionally, we need to follow the money trail. All these oil tycoon billionaires in Saudi Arabia who give money to bin Laden and his organization need to be arrested and all their assets go to the state. Also, Bin Laden may have billions, but it isn't stuffed in a pillow in Afghanistan. Its probably laundered and sitting in a Swiss bank somewhere, maybe even one of our own banks. Those assets need to be found and frozen. If Switzerland will not comply, they should have full sanctions placed upon them.

Now you go from the ridiculous to the sublime.

a) If they knew who was funding Bin Laden in Saudi, they would have sorted them out a long time ago. Theyve already revoked his own citizenship because of his terrorist links. Anyone associated with him would be in deep trouble over there. And besides, he has so much money of his own he doesnt really need any tycoon billionaires to back him.

b) Put sanctions on Switzerland? Sure. Pick on the one nation who can cripple the ENTIRE world economy if it decides to fight back with economic sanctions. Have you any idea how much American money is controlled here in Switzerland. Do you think the EU would agree to shutting down the nation who does most of their banking, who is the key trasnsport route from Northern to Southern Europe? Or maybe you think the US could just bully the EU into line through sanctions as well?

World politics is not simple. Your simple solutions will not work.

Lastly, I know many of you will scream that in this solution, civilians will surely die. Well, again I say, if the Taliban is going to hide behind their civillians, it is tragic, but we have little choice. Just remember, one of the reasons you fight is because you believe that your citizens are more valuable than theirs.

Rubbish. Horse manure.

First of all, the Taliban have made a perfectly reasonably statement that they will not consider extradition of Bin Laden in the absence of proof. This is a standard practice for any nation, and they are perfectly correct. So far the US have not produced proof, and in fact have now issued an ultimatum to teh Taliban in the absence of such proof.

Secondly, the Taliban have said that the US do not have the right to forcibly remove a "guest" of their nation, and to do so would be an act of war. This is also correct.

Think of the US response if the EU said that we believe Joe Bloggs US citizen is responsible for some ceiminal actions in Europe, but we can offer no solid proof. Furthermore if the US doesnt hand him over by the weekend, we will invade. I think you'll find that the US response would exactly match the Taliban response from Afghanistan.

Furthermore, they are not hiding behind their people. They are pointing out how many innocent Afghani's will get hurt should America INVADE their nation - something which they will fight against. They are a strongly religious country. If a Holy War is declared by the religious leaders, then the strongly religious will follow that. The Taliban are not hiding...they are doing the opposite. They are putting on their strongest show.

Now...getting back to the whole basic point.

The US has had a rude awakening. They have suffered the worst attack on their home soil since Pearl Harbour, and probably the worst attak on a civilian target ever.

The US people are outraged. This is understandable.

However, you still not have adequately looked at why this happened. WHY does so much of the ME look on the US as "the great satan"? The US have had their fingers in the ME for so long, making sure that they get cheap oil in large quantities. This was the main reason they got involved in the Gulf War. Bush snr. encouraged the Iraqi people to rise up against Hussein, pledging to be with them. Once they tried, they found themselves completely on their own, because the US would not get involved in a domestic dispute. You wonder why these people bear grudges? Its because they have been mistreated.

US foreign policy, and US foreign intervention, is what has led to the hatred felt by large groups in the Middle East. Nothing else. They dont hate your difference in religion, they dont envy your wealth. They hate the intervention of the US in the middle east, period. And in a region which contains the most fanatical religious people, it is inevitable that this would become a religious crusade for some.

While this in no way excuses the acts of terrorism carried out, it should be an indication that the US may want to rethink how it does business slightly if it wushes to avoid this type of situation. Declaring war on terrorism is all well and good, but no-one has yet to figure out what this means, and how successful it can conceivably be.

If American policy does not change, then I predict that either the US will turn into a military state (curfew, matial law, etc.), or the people will live in constant fear of attack.


jc

bonkey

Originally posted by Nagilum

If it looks like a duck and acts like a duck...

What? Us was neutral in WW2 until it got attacked. Ireland was neutral in WW2 and didnt get attacked, and therefore never had a reason to change its mind.

Therefore, go take your "duck" comments, and point them straight back at the US.

As stated previously, I believe the US has been far to interventionist in the last many years. (I'm a libertarian so I believe in virtually no intervention) However, all that is in the past and now we've been attacked and the question is how we will respond to it.

Its not all in the past. American still intervenes in foreign issues, and still takes sides. Part of how you respond to it is to take the necessary steps to try and make sure you dont incite this type of hatred again. This is what you seem to be missing. You can try and slap Afghanistan all you want, but after the dust settles, if the US is still sticking its nose into Middle East policy, someone else will rise up and slap you upside the head once more.

We will save more lives in the long run, as we did with the horrible, but correct, decision to drop the atom bomb on Japan.

You can so glibly justify a mass attack on a civilian target in order to stop a military conflict?

Surely then you can argue that the attack on the WTC was justifiable as an action taken to lessen arms sales and other military intervention by the US in the ME.

no. I do not believe that killing all those responsible for this travesty is a "great insult to the thousands lost in the rubble of tuesday.

You miseed his point. Invading Afghanistan and going to war with a nation is not "killing those responsible". It is killing a few of those responsible, thousands of soldiers, and thousands more innocents. It will also lead to further guerrila attacks on other ME countries, and most likely on the US as well, resulting in the loss of thousands more innocent deaths. It is possible that it will cause a war across the entire middle east, as nations polarise into pro- and anti- US. You think this is justice?

In fact, you probably wont even kill those responsible. I doubt very much that the US will ever find Bin Laden, unless he wants to be found (martyrdom by this man would cause soooo much trouble for the US you wouldnt believe it), or those sheltering him decide to turn him over of their own will.

jc

Aspro

If it takes 50,000 or even 100,000 afghanis to die before this thing is over, then that's the way it has to be. If they want to fight instead of than handing over Bin Laden's and all his gang, then they are barely less guilty than Bin Laden himself. However, the bottom line is that our civilians ARE more valuable than theirs.

Gargoyle, your contempt for human life disgusts me. Why are our citizens more valuable than theirs? Because they have dark skin and live in poverty? And why do they live in poverty? Because the USA has had such a stranglehold on Middle Eastern oil reserves that human life in that part of the world is worthless. Yes, oil. Despite all the propaganda were going to be fed with over the next while about the bad guys it's still about American control of oil in the Middle East - just like the Gulf War. America trained Osama bin Laden just like they trained Saddam Hussein but there always has to be a bad guy so that the murder of innocent Afghan or Iraqi civilians can be justified. The solution - for regimes like the Taliban or Saddam to be overthrown by the people, as they did in Serbia, not by American imperialism looking after its own greedy interests.

Bob the Unlucky Octopus

This is going to be a long post, possibly spread out over two posts- but having read the remarks in this thread I'm both shocked and deeply horrified at some of what has been said.

Nagilum, as a fellow American, and as a fellow libretarian, I can honestly say you make me sick with some of your suggestions. The way you have ignored the message of this thread whilst beating the drum for military intervention smacks of the very self-important posturing that got us into this position in the first place.

Originally posted by Nagilum:
I'm just curious. What would you all have America do if not retalliate? If Taliban regime will not hand Bin Laden over, should the US just give up on it?

So we only have two choices? Either leave him alone or attack Afghanistan? You see Nagilum, there's this little thing called diplomacy and...oh, never mind.

And Bin Laden's hate DOES come from his exile from Saudi Arabia thank you very much. He has said as much in his interviews. He also hates the Saudi government for allowing the US to provide them protection from Iraq during the gulf war and very much resents the fact that there are still American bases there.

This is of course assuming that he is in fact responsible, and we're not simply using him as a scapegoat for what happened. Remember Oklahoma City Nagilum? If we knew about bin Laden at that stage, and I was taking bets on who was responsible, I'd have made a fortune. In the absence of any proof either from law enforcement agencies or other sources, you seem to have already decided the fate of the Afghani people, never mind the cost. I can only say I'm glad you're not making any important policy decisions here- god only knows the cost to civilian life. What ever happened to a diplomatic solution Nagilum, hmm? The idea that war and violent incursion was a last resort- the most barbaric of options. Isn't that one of the principles upon which the Libretarian party stands firm? Indeed, a principle that the US should have followed for the past 50 years?

The fact that the Taliban regime have started placing conditions on the release of Osama bin Laden (removal of crippling sanctions on food, medicine and essential supplements, stopping military support to opposition party forces, etc.) shows that they are at least considering giving him up. Shouldn't we at least try talking? And before you say they can't be reasoned with- no nation in its right mind would conduct negotiations under the threat of force- we certainly wouldn't do so- can you expect anything less from them? No? I see...when we declare that we refuse to discuss terms at the point of a gun it's strong, intelligent policy-making, when they do it it's a stubborn terrorist, Islamic fundamentalist attitude declaimed by a bunch of theocraticians? Please...surely even you must see the double standards there.
As Hobbes has hinted at, and I (and I suspect bugler once I get him into this thread) will later elaborate, we are directly responsible for this state of affairs in more ways than one. I don't merely refer to our dubious interventionist policy- that is debatable within the context of international relations and the geopolitical state we have to deal with in the Middle East.

I'm talking about the fact that it was us who originally trained Bin Laden, us who supplied him with weapons, bases, intelligence and third-party support. It was us who, through the CIA helped to funnel illegal arms-sales funds through these "laundered Swiss accounts" to get Osama started. We supplied him his arms-sales contacts from traders in the region. If you're talking about hunting down and killing all those responsible for harboring, sheltering or aiding Osama bin Laden, the vast majority of the Reagen, Bush Sr. and Clinton administrations must surely be expecting a few LGB's headed their way, musn't they?

As far as the Taliban handing them over goes, and the sticky tangle we find ourselves in there, that is also our fault. It was the Clinton administration that so trumpeted the isolation of Afghanistan as a nation, when what they needed after the Soviet incursion was massive humanitarian aid, and a helping hand. I never bought into the idea of imposing trading sanctions based on a nation's human rights record. It defies all reasoning- the merchants, street-sellers, export workers and export firms in Afghanistan aren't the ones perpetrating the human rights abuses- neither are the innocent civilians for whom a crippled economy is only another invitation for more Taliban atrocities. Did the rest of the world isolate the US when we butchered our Native American population? Or during the civil rights movement? Yet they are the ones punished by sanctions and isolation, not the Taliban regime. The argument that a people's suffering might force the Taliban government to change the way it acts is also bunkum- they don't give a sh1t about their civilians- the way they've treated their own populace shows that.

As a result of Afghanistan being so isolated, we have no extradition treaty with them- the cooperation we extended the mujahadeen during the Soviet incursion is all but forgotten, and this isolation is why we might find it impossible to secure his release. Again- it is our own policies, policies that the Libretarian party has consistently condemned that have brought us to this impasse.

Continued in next post

Bob the Unlucky Octopus

Right, enough of the international policy lecture (lord knows most of our citizens need it rather badly), now, to address the more spurious of your arguments.

Hobbes makes a strong and valid point about civil liberties being violated, and the level of pure hatred there is back home for anyone even remotely resembling someone of Middle-Eastern origin. Look at the impact it's having back home:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1550000/1550037.stm

You then attack him with this drivel:

You should be a politician Hobbes. You have a remarkable ability to ignore parts of an argument for your convenince. Lets look at what I said again, shall we?

As remarkable as that is, it is no less remarkable than your ability to bring up completely irrelevant, not to mention idiotic arguments. Such as:

I'm amazed how you Irish seem to want to interject so much about military strategy and what the US will do.

People are interested, Nagilum- seeing as we're the most powerful government force on the planet, people are understandably wondering, not to mention worrying about how we're going to respond. They worry about military action and the aftermath of such action, and rightly so- look at Iraq, ffs. Their citizens, particularly those who are starving and lacking basic medicine, those who are suffering from terminal conditions easily treatable. The war with the US, plus the crippling sanctions on medical supplies have gutted a civilian population that had nothing to do with Saddam's bullying of his immediate neighbors. We received a letter to our health trust (C&I) from a colleague in Baghdad, informing us of a complete absence of cetruximide, and even basic vaccinations. He works in the pediatric ward, treating over 200 children that he knows will be dead in the next week without basic supplies that will never come. Except that those children would be replaced by 200 more, as quickly as the beds can be emptied, and the bodies bagged. You extoll the value that "their citizens are more valuable than ours"- why do those children deserve to die for the actions of their dictatorial despot Nagilum?

Pretty brazen for a bunch of people who sat on the sideline during WW2.

Like we did when the whole of Asia and Europe was being overrun? During the Japanese mass slaughter of Chinese civilians under a nationalist government we set up?. Or like we did during most of the First world war then...brilliant argument, bumpkin.

And it's just irrelevant, not to mention f*cking rude. Shinji would call you an arrogant self-important gob-sh1te, and I'd agree with him. I don't see what the hell that has to do with someone on this board expressing an opinion. I've been part of this community for some time now, and when some people post a reasonable, not to mention very defensible argument, you come up with that irrelevant, trashy argument. The Irish government may have made mistakes at the time, but none of the people here are responsible for that- though then again, you seem certain that the entire Taliban regime, not to mention the Afghan people need to pay the price for the action of a few extremists- the many suffering for the action of a few. There's a kind of sick consistency to all this...

Even if in doing so we kill civilians. We will save more lives in the long run, as we did with the horrible, but correct, decision to drop the atom bomb on Japan.

And just how the heck is that true, may I ask? By simply removing a terrorist group on the merest hint of suspicion, as we seem to be planning to do, we merely create a hundred more groups stuffed with martyrs willing to die to hurt us. When does the circle of violence end Nagilum? Oh, and before you say their citizens don't really matter, and we're willing to pay the price of more terrorist attacks...you've forgotten something.

What about our allies in the region? Already, our aggressive attitude towards Pakistan is causing destabilizing elements to appear within its borders, the TWO MILLION Afghan refugees in Iran and the million sitting in Pakistan are set to be joined by more, despite the border closure:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1549000/1549700.stm

Our allies in the Middle East, slowly and painstakingly formed through the toil of men like Sadat and Rabin, who made the ultimate sacrifice in the name of peace are set to entrench themselves even further. With each bomb of ours that kills an innocent civilian, more outbreaks of violence across the region, slowly unpicks the remaining strands, put in place by these great statesmen. Our allies are now in a state of confusion, plagued by internal dissent and foreign policy pressure- they didn't ask for this to happen andy more than they want the US's involvement in the first place. With our recent aggressive attitude, we have diluted the little ethics we had left in our foreign policy, perhaps forever. The polarization of our allies, former allies, and nations such as Iran that we have tried to build bridges with, would create huge and terrible suffering within the region. The human cost to all this is mounting, and the cost to our allies. And we haven't even started retaliating yet.
Look inward a bit Nagilum- you are proving as difficult as those "evil unreasonable terrorists" to reason with- you are baying for blood, just as those terrorists were- and nothing we say seems to be able to convince you of the long-term cost. I fear for our nations future if those like yourself are its inheritors. God Bless America

Occy

[edit] jc has put across his arguments in a composed and rational fashion as always- expect to be put in your place even more, as the politically aware posters of boards.ie point out the spurious and hatred-fueled nature of your posts. And as for you Gargoyle- get a conscience first, then educate yourself about the situation- you haven't a clue.[/edit]

beaver

Nagilum,

A few issues (in no particular order)...


First of all, you're obviously very patriotic. I get a real "we're greater than anyone else" vibe. Difficult to have a proper discussion with an attitude like that... this is turning into a "my country's better'n yours" arguement.


You suggest removing all "foreign national from the states that support terrorism" from the US? It'll be great for your tourism industry...


As for "us Irish" wanting to interject... the US now has international backing to deal with this issue - of course we're (as everyone else is) going to be bloody concerned about it's previous track record with handling such situations. Rest assured a keen eye will be kept on on-going proceedings too and that comments will be justifiably made worldwide.


Re: The Taliban handing over Osama bin Laden... they have said that when the US provide proof of his guilt they will hand him over. What's wrong with this? Do you just want a scapegoat? Does it matter if he's guilty of perpetrating recent events?

They can't very well say "Ah, sure, he's guilty of something anyway, give him here" without saying the same thing to every other nation with a known terrorist resident there. Well actually they can and I'm sure it would make a lot of people happy. But, it wouldn't be just.


Your comments about Ireland and WW2 are verging on the lunatic fringe. What are you on about? Does the US, every time it sees an injustice, jump in and fight on the side of good? That was rhetorical.

Anyway, I don't see that comparing Ireland to the US under those circumstances solves that arguement. They're vastly different nations and were in vastly different positions at the time. In fact Ireland was just barely a nation, as we know it. Additionally, the US was largely uninvolved until Pearl Harbour, when it changed it's mind. Nothing of that magnitude happened to cause Ireland to change it's mind.


I'd love to know which leading figure of the US Forces authorised you to speak for them

Re: Your suggested napalm strikes. Hmm, I'm starting to figure you are invloved/have been invloved in the military. Not many people could justify burning hundreds, maybe thousands, of Afghani soldiers to death because some terrorists killed US citizens (and citizens of some 62 other nationalities, I believe) and damaged some buildings. The Afghani soldiers did not do this. Nonetheless, because they are between you and your revenge, you'd have them charred. Bizarre!

You can justify the killing of (a) Afghani troops, (b) American troops and (c) American citizens at home just to find Osama bin Laden simply because "[sic.] otherwise, they'll keep doing it"? This is the second attack by some foreign outfit on US soil ever, as far as I know (well, there was the Embassy too...) - the first being Pearl Harbour. Am I right in thinking this?

If I'm right, why do you think they'll keep doing it? They don't exactly have a track record.

You believe your citizens are more valuable than theirs? You mean in what they can do/produce/supply or actually on a human worth scale? If it's the latter, you're a poor fish! Either way, do they deserve to die for a man they've probably never met?


Your suggestion regarding the education of foreigners in the ways of science, namely ceasing said education, is nonsensical.

It looks like your perfect America would be one under marshall law, with no ports and no external flights.

Not since the continents were together have things been looking more towards a united world. This is very far away, no doubt. But, it's obviously the future. What you're suggesting is that the US doesn't share it's knowledge with other countries. Hmm, without this knowledge they cannot progress as a nation to the point where they can do business with the US and other countries. See where the plan starts to fail?

I don't know why I have to state this. Science is double-sided. It can be used for good; it can be used for bad. That doesn't mean you don't teach it.


This is kind of annoying. I've been getting this "don't be so anti-American" thing a lot over the past week for _disagreeing_ with what some Americans' opinions are. Now, I don't want to generalise, but in all fairness, it seems like US patriotism has shot through the roof. You might want to get that in check - it doesn't do your perceived attitude to _other_ nationalities any favours.


-Ross

Hobbes

You should be a politician Hobbes. You have a remarkable ability to ignore parts of an argument for your convenince. Lets look at what I said again, shall we?

LOL. No I didn't ignore anything. How are you going to determine they are a terrorist? Going to go up and ask them? Or are you just going to deport everyone who came from the Middle East. Way to go! You are a racist.

Most Muslims are good people and I know some (I wonder, do you?).

Yes I know quite a lot. One of the women in work, her husband had his shop burnt down over the weekend because he was Muslim.

Another one in work I had to watch take sh1t from some asshole of a supplier.

I'm talking about foreign nationals here, not citizens. This is nothing like the internment camps in WW2.

No?

Certainly sounds like what your proposing.

Do you honestly think a terrorist is going to be a student on a visa? It's possible that's how they get into the country but after that do you honestly think they will keep the same visa and sit there waiting for you to come up to thier house and say "Oi! You! Out!"

No I would assume they would get fake ID (or real ID) to show they are a US Citizen. Or prehaps you haven't heard of the term "Sleeper" or recruiting Nationals (which is what the CIA do).

Please tell me how an American citizen can been innocent but people who are visitors aren't? Because that's what your saying.

Anyone who advocates the killing innocent people to get thier point across is an as.shole in my book.

gandalf

Thank god there are Americans around like Bob, who can prove to me what decent intelligent Americans are really like.

Nagilum & Gargoyle have not grasped as nearly everyone else here has that if this situation is not handled delicately then the whole Middle Eastern region can be destablised, and considering some of the regimes in there have Nuclear, Chemical & Biological weapons that is a very frightening prospect for the world.

For those Americans or anyone else who thinks they should "send the troops in" to Afghanistan heres an article by Robert Risk that you should read. If Bush wants an invasion, it could become more costly than Vietnam

Gandalf.

popinfresh

Both the Taliban & the american president are knobs, If George Bush hadn't bombed Afganistan then all of this probably wouldn't have happened. Tey probably wouldn't have hi-jacked the planes. Sure they would have still hated the US, but I'd say that the bombing was just a final pisser. Did George Bush honestly think that if he bombed a country they would sit back and admire him?? But the culprates f the NY attack are also a pack of knobs, mayby the Pentagon could have a slight bit of logic to it, but why kill innocent people??

Omega_Weapon

America has the right to fight back. I don't generally support America, but on this issue, terrorism has to be brought down. I don't think it can ever be fully eradicated, but at least the public might be safer. Looking at what happened in New York, terrorists seem to be growing stronger. This could happen again, anytime, any place. Even the most powerful country in the world could not prevent it.

Mjollnir

Originally posted by popinfresh
Both the Taliban & the american president are knobs, If George Bush hadn't bombed Afganistan then all of this probably wouldn't have happened. Tey probably wouldn't have hi-jacked the planes. Sure they would have still hated the US, but I'd say that the bombing was just a final pisser. Did George Bush honestly think that if he bombed a country they would sit back and admire him?? But the culprates f the NY attack are also a pack of knobs, mayby the Pentagon could have a slight bit of logic to it, but why kill innocent people??

You might want to do a fact check before posting, Professor.

Now, just when, exactly, did George Bush bomb Afghanistan?

Bob the Unlucky Octopus

Originally posted by Mjollnir


You might want to do a fact check before posting, Professor.

Now, just when, exactly, did George Bush bomb Afghanistan?

Wondering that myself...don't even think his dad bombed the Afghans...though it's easy to see how he got that impression- there's barely a US-set-up dictatorship in the Middle East that hasn't been bombed by us. Then again, that's likely to change soon unfortunately

gandalf

Naw it was Billy Clinton we tried to bomb Bin Laden in Afghanistan with 70 accurate cruise missles after the African Embassy bombings.

Gandalf.

God_Bless_USA

Good lord, I don't even know where to start. The Irish stayed on the sidelines in World War II, a well known known fact. Secondly, the De Valera government sent CONDOLENCES to the German Embassy in Dublin after Hitler's suicide. Keep in mind, that this shocking event took place in the last week of the European war, and this was AFTER Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen, and Dachau were liberated by Allied Forces.  CONDOLENCES!!! Arrwww!!!!!

Next, support of Israel. The Israelis are far from perfect, but Israel is the only democracy in the middle east. <BR>

But why is really America hated, particularly in the middle-east? Because we are the lone superpower and they're envious and jealous of us. But there is more: Why are there no Arab democracies? So they also hate us for our freedom, and the freedom that we support throughout the world. Back in the Ayatollah Khomeini days, Iran called us the "Great Satan." Why the USA? Why not the USSR? After all, that atheist state was not only oppressing millions of Muslim Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Chechens, Azeris and others at the time, but was also at war with the Afghan Muslims while the Soviets tried to prop up a Communists Afghansistan.

Again, they hate us for our freedom. Sure our decadence (which is subdued compared to that of most of western Europe) such as pornography and drugs figure into that mix, but the essential fact is this: Most middle-easterners are at best luke warm about democracy, and all Islamic fundamentalists despise democracy and the freedom of choice, and yes, the inevitible decadence it brings. Back to the old Soviet Union: The Islamic fundamentalists, except for the atheism that was written into the system, liked most of what they saw in that totalitarian government.

That, my Irish friends (I'm an American with 100% Irish blood) is why we are hated. But we'll prevail, freedom always does.

Bob the Unlucky Octopus

Good lord, I don't even know where to start. The Irish stayed on the sidelines in World War II, a well known known fact. Secondly, the De Valera government sent CONDOLENCES to the German Embassy in Dublin after Hitler's suicide. Keep in mind, that this shocking event took place in the last week of the European war, and this was AFTER Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen, and Dachau were liberated by Allied Forces

Firstly, what does this have to do with anything? Whatever Ireland happened to do (or not do) during WWII it surely has no bearing on the discussion of this thread- namely, why we are so hated by several groups in the Middle East. But as you bring it up...

Better a PR scandal like that than the atrocities we ourselves committed during WWII. Such as the forcible relocation of the Japanese into internment camps within the US, not to mention the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings. Or the thousands of German civilians who perished in a single night's carpet bombing of Dresden- over a hundred thousand dead if I remember right.

But why is really America hated, particularly in the middle-east? Because we are the lone superpower and they're envious and jealous of us

What utter drivel- suicide bombers willing to kill themselves in terrorist attacks because they're jealous of our way of life? Bullsh1t- they hate us so desperately because of the way we've mistreated them both directly and indirectly with our puritanically interventionist foreign policy in the region. Because of our deliberate destabilization of regional governments to promote US interests in the region. Just look at the suffering of the innocent civilians of Iraq, deprived of basic food and medicine because of sanctions only the US and Great Britain have supported. Don't you think our unscrupulous treatment of the Palestinian people is a far more plausible reason for terrorist attacks than the ludicrous idea that they're jealous of us? Pretty insidious green-eyed monster eh? :rolleyes:

Next, support of Israel. The Israelis are far from perfect, but Israel is the only democracy in the middle east

A democracy in name only- the horrors that Israel continues to perpetuate- including the illegal occupation of Palestinian land, the bull-dozing of innocent peoples' homes, human rights abuses of Palestinians, state-sponsored assassinations in regional governments designed to destabilize their power structures, the unscrupulous killing of young boys with live ammunition- are these the actions of a democracy we want to be associated with? Just because their system of government happens to be democratic doesn't mean they act in anything resembling an ethical manner.

Back in the Ayatollah Khomeini days, Iran called us the "Great Satan." Why the USA? Why not the USSR? After all, that atheist state was not only oppressing millions of Muslim Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Chechens, Azeris and others at the time, but was also at war with the Afghan Muslims while the Soviets tried to prop up a Communists Afghansistan.

They don't hate the USSR because the Soviets actually took a far more balanced foreign policy view of the region than we did. The Soviets took the trouble to use diplomacy in the region, garnering support rather than making enemies at every turn. While the US simply abused its super-power status, bullying countries into submission, setting up puppet regimes and training the Taliban militia using the SDTF set up for the very purpose of equipping terrorists. This sort of callous intervention plus the unilateral stance on several key policies made the US a prime target for hatred. The USSR abusing its own muslim inhabitants is a far less serious issue than the callous, destructive means in which US foreign policy has caused so much suffering in the Middle East itself.

Again, they hate us for our freedom. Sure our decadence (which is subdued compared to that of most of western Europe) such as pornography and drugs figure into that mix, but the essential fact is this: Most middle-easterners are at best luke warm about democracy, and all Islamic fundamentalists despise democracy and the freedom of choice, and yes, the inevitible decadence it brings

As for the decadence argument- get a clue. No one's going to risk their lives to destroy so many innocents because they consider a society "decadent" or "opulent". Name me a single historical example where a terror attack or similar cause used that sound-bite as a cause.

As far as Islamic fundamentalists go- you mean the same Islamic fundamentalists we backed to the hilt during the days of the Cold War? Back then we figured it was better to have an Islamic regime in place than a communist one- so it's very much our fault that fundamentalism has been allowed to flourish in these nations. "All middle-easterners are at best luke-warm about democracy?" Have you visited the planet Earth recently? You've basically judged the political ideology of an entire region to be relatively homogenous...are you insane?

That, my Irish friends (I'm an American with 100% Irish blood) is why we are hated.

I'm an American with 0% Irish blood- and that is *not* why we are hated. We're hated for the arrogant self-important and harmful policies we've adopted in the Middle East. Not because they envy us, or hate the way we choose to govern ourselves. They may be filled with hatred, but they're not stupid :rolleyes:

But we'll prevail, freedom always does.

If the freedom to proclaim such ludicrous arguments as yours are included in that sweeping statement of meaningless rhetoric, I'd rather be oppressed, thank you very much. I suggest you do some reading, and find out exactly what it is our government's been up to over the last 30 years. Then perhaps you'll understand exactly why we're so hated by so many- that realization can only be a good thing, expecially seeing the racist backlash we're experiencing right now.

Occy

Aspro

Freedom is why the USA is Hated

So what's this freedom you're talking about "God Bless America"?? The freedom to live in the most unequal society in the industrialised world? The freedom to see the rich get obscenely richer while ordinary workers are being laid off? The freedom to vote for tweedle dum or tweedle dumber in two parties that stand for the same thing? As with the rest of the world, when the people really try to assert their freedom we see just how our leaders actually view our rights. Genuine peaceful protests against the destruction of our planet through greed have been viciously attacked by state forces at the Anti-Globalisation protests in Gothenburg, Genoa and throughout the world. What would be different about so-called "free" America? You are only free in this society so long as you tow the line and accept the way the world is run (destroyed).
By the way, I'm an atheist and proud of it. It doesn't make me any less of a human being so get off your horse and drink your milk.

yankinlk

Lads, Enough. Let this thread die. Old Bush boy is doin grand so far, taking his time and all...and what of the TAliban? ("...osama aint here and he didnt do it...OK, osama is here, but he still didnt do it....OKOK, he is here, but maybe he DID do it....)

OT: My Favorite Bush qoute when asked would he be bombing afghanistan: "Im not going to fire a 2 million dollar missile at a $10 tent and hit a camel in the butt."

Excelsior

Originally posted by God_Bless_USA

(which is subdued compared to that of most of western Europe)

This is my favourite quote of the week. All those Anais Nin books we read over here! All our dirty modern french literature with its disgusting sex and nudity, sweat, fluid and lust.

Brilliantly stupid.



Occy- nice work as usual, a pleasure to read.
And can I just point out that while we didn't take part in WWII, and while de Valera was not actually a saint, we do know quite a lot more about terrorism and how it affects your life than the American posters here. We have been living with this for over 30 years, and while the scale is not as large, in terms of evil, Omagh or Enniskillen or any number of attacks you care to mention are equivalent to the disgusting massacre that took place last week.

Hobbes

Originally posted by God_Bless_USA
But why is really America hated

Varies from country to country. I had an American ask me that in Greece wanting to know why Greek people hated America.

They never heard that the CIA helped cause a coup in that country and imprison the president who was elected by the people. They then put in thier own military leaders who imprisoned or exiled thousands of people. Oh and loads of US companies got really cheap contracts in the country.

The night of the colonels I believe it was called.

It's changed a lot since then, but a lot of the crap that went on in the Reagan era was related to that.

History is very subjective to the country your living in. You should prehaps ask people why they hate you rather then believing what your told in your own country.

For example, did you know that no Irish related history is taught in English schools (least not primary+secondary), well not the same way they teach in Ireland.

In England they don't mention anything about them forcing Irish people off thier land and making them pay rent for land they already owned.

Actually at one point the teacher was explaining each color of the Union Jack and put in a part saying "There is no green for Ireland because they didn't want our help". Also told in England that Irish people were killing British because they didn't like the way England worked (sound familar?).

Of course, Ireland is the complete reverse, You hear about every English atrocity while skipping over the Irish ones.

As for WWII examples. You have to remember that times were very different then and a lot of what we know now was totally oblivious to most of the people in the war. Ireland wasn't aware of what was going on in Germany, heck most of the German population didn't know what was going on. They were told that Jewish people were being relocated to a different country.

Ireland was considered the holiday country in WWII, if you got shot down over it (English or German) you were able to relax down the country in a POW camp that would probably put all the others to shame.

Anyway I recommend reading "Psychology of Intelligence Analysis" by Richards . Heuer Jr. There is a whole section called "Biases in perception of cause and effect" and "Overestimating our own importance" which covers this thread nicely (btw, it was written by a guy in the CIA).

Hobbes

Originally posted by God_Bless_USA
That, my Irish friends (I'm an American with 100% Irish blood) is why we are hated. But we'll prevail, freedom always does.

"History is always written by the winners"

Excelsior

Abraham Lincoln:
"If we were born where they were born, if we were taught what they were taught, we would believe what they believe."

bonkey

Originally posted by God_Bless_USA
But why is really America hated, particularly in the middle-east?

This is a complex question, which Hobbes just posted an excellent reply on, but heres a few thoughts.

1) Americans (the people, not the nation) are generally mocked/disliked/hated because of the all-too-common arrogance mixed with naievite which they so often show.

Hearing CNN report on the US as the safest country in the world, and New York as the capital of the world is a typical example of one side of this. Americans believing it, and coming out with "land of the free" and other such Americanisms which they believe to be fully true galls most people.

It is good to have national pride. It is also good to acknowledge the faults in your own country.

2) America (the nation, embodied by the administration and multinational businesses) is the most powerful nation on earth. However, this does not give America the right to manipulate other countries to its own ends - something which it has had a long record of doing ever since rising to dominance after WW2.

As has been shown, many of the detractors of the US are far more aware of the injustices and atrocities carried out, sanctioned, or ignored by your nation. Many citizens of the US are blissfully unaware of these issues.

Looking at the mniddle east in particular...

Before the fall of the Soviet Union, the US used the Middle East (Afghanistan being a very good example) as a "playground" to use to cause trouble for the Soviets. Their agreements with several of the oil-producing nations has guaranteed financial success and stability to these "allies" in return for cheaper oil, while at the same time, indirectly causing problems in the rest of the region.

America (people and nation) stands upon a pedestal. Worse, it puts itself up on this pedestal. It boasts of its supremacy, while failing to live up to the standards it claims it upholds. Those who suffer at the hands of the US (or feel thay have suffered) see a nation boasting about how wonderful it is, while they see only the darker side of your nation.

In truth, America is a great country. It is also a seriously ill country. I like to believe I can see both sides of that coin. Many people will only see one side or the other - you cannot be surprised when some only see the dark.

That, my Irish friends (I'm an American with 100% Irish blood) is why we are hated. But we'll prevail, freedom always does.

So what you are saying is that you are 100% American who happens to have Irish ancestors. Ergo, you are 100% American.

Your blood doesnt have a nationality. That is technically defined by where you are born, but more appropriately where you grew up.

As for freedom always prevailing - you've been reading too many fantasy books. If freedom always prevailed, there'd be nothing left but freedom in the world today.

All things have been cyclical, and in all likelihood will continue to do so. Freedom will lead to oppression. Oppression will lead to revolution. Revolution will lead to freedom.

By that standard, freedom is always bound to fail - not to prevail.

Come to think of it...I cant think of anyone in the world today who is truly free.

jc

gandalf

As I think this thread has covered quite alot and given I had to delete the last 2 posts because of morons argueing over who has the biggest army etc......... I am now closing this thread. Please feel free to start a new one but remember as DeVore says engage brain before hitting "Submit Reply".

Gandalf.