Job Satisfaction -v- Money

LegacyUser

Posting unreg to hide I.D...

Basics: I'm in a job that I love, great company, great people, but they're just not giving me enough money.
I'm working in a largish I.T. department (30ish people) in a large company. The department is split into sections, basically comprising of 1st/2nd level user support, and then other sections above it dealing with various bits.

At my last (and first ever) performance review, I was given a sparkling review with the promise of increased authority, responsibility and money. The authority and responsibility increased, but the money only kind of did. I was given a not insubstantial increase, but it was less than half of what I deemed reasonable for the quality and quantity of work I'd been doing. I had voluntarily worked well above and beyond my job spec in my first year, because I love what I do. My boss agreed that the pay rise didn't reflect my actual value, but explained that everyone's pay rise was poor because one individual in management got a large promotion (€10-€15k), eating up a lot of the IT Dept's salary budget for the year. I was willing to run with that.

Then, a short time later, a person was hired into a position in one of the other sections, for a job that wasn't really needed, a position worth about €45k. Later on, a person was hired into management to overview a section comprising of three people and a manager. That salary easily pays over €80k. Again, there was no real requirement to hire this person. My boss I trust as an honest guy - I would believe that he's being fed the "not enough money" lines by his superiors.

This really wouldn't bother me that much if I didn't think about the future. As it is, the department is ridiculously top-heavy in terms of management. There is one member of management for every two staff. Yes, you heard me - almost one-third of the department are in management. They're also top-heavy in terms of senior staff. People simply tend not to leave once they've been there a while. So there are a couple of people doing the same job as me, but who have 3-4 years on me, and have already worked in the other sections, filling in for people on leave, etc. In the section I would like to move into, nobody has left in the last 3 years, and nobody seems on the cusp of leaving. Leaving me with nowhere to get promoted to, and one or two people ahead of me in the queue. I would consider myself the better candidate for any promotion, but I couldn't see me getting promoted ahead of the long-timers without some serious friction and bitterness.

The pros are, as I've outlined above - great people, great craic, free certifications, and not mind-numbing work; As it is, I'm generally left to my own devices and am given a lot of slack to work on personal projects for the department, without having to account for my time or have menial tasks piled on top of me.

If the prospects were good, I wouldn't even be having this dilemma, but all I can see for the next few years is disappointing payrise after disappointing payrise until my boss ends up recommending I leave to get a job more worthy of me. I'm not long in the full-time working game, but I've become extremely ambitious after squandering a lot of time in my teens and in college, and I'm determined not to waste my potential.

I know people will suggest talking to my boss, but as I say, this is all new to me. How do approach someone for more money when they'll tell your their hands are tied, and that there's nowhere to promote you?

Thanks if you read this far

Mezcita

Interesting post. I recently went to a lecture by a guy whose job is to basically teach people how to negotiate better salaries for themselves.

The key thing from the lecture is to not meet your boss all guns blazing and demand a huge pay rise. Essentially they advise you to arrange a meeting but have everything planned out in your head prior to meeting the boss. Namely, what you bring to the business, what you have achieved, what you can potentially do down the line.

The most important words having reviewed your appraisal is that their offer "is not quite what you were expecting". This basically tells them that you feel that it requires further discussion without being aggressive about the salary. The thing here is that 99% of people get told they have been appraised, get given a few grand extra and say nothing. But if you feel you are worth more there is no reason not to tell them.

The response given by your boss that his hands are tied is a common one. So too is that company policy dictates that you should be on a certain amount per year. All you have to do here is say that while it may be policy, you do not feel it is a fair one.

Another good move is too apparently compromise on the salary but request that bonuses are written into your contract. This on the one hand keeps the boss happy but these little bonuses all add up (e.g. health insurance, phone, car, sales bonuses etc...).

If they refuse to budge just be honest. Tell them that you are ambitious but feel that the structure you are on does not represent your true worth. Also tell them that if they can’t help you, it forces your position and will mean that you will have to start looking elsewhere. It basically means you are laying your cards on the table. They can either give you more or risk losing you, which is potentially a very expensive scenario in a company of any size.

Overall, I think you have to weigh up the enjoyment you have working for this company against where you can go with them. These days people have to be flexible about who they choose to work with. Money talks, especially in Ireland but if the company is hiring new people on decent packages there is no reason why they should not listen to what you have to say.

That said, the management structure is out of your hands. But if you think that one day you might be one of the many managers in the place stick with them.

Best of luck.

iguana

Why not take a look at other vacancies in other companies. Do a search and if a job that you would be interested in is available apply for it, you can usually inform them that you would rather they not contact your present employer for the moment.

If you get an interview, go along to it and get a feel for the company. If you are offered the job, but you feel you would prefer to stay where you are you could approach your boss. Tell him you have been offered another job and give him an opportunity to match your salary.

At the very least take a look at what else is out there. As much as you like your job, if you are ambitious there is little point in staying somewhere that you have no room to grow.

Eoin

This maybe better suited to the work forum?

Anyhow - one thing I can say is do not undervalue a job that you enjoy going into everyday. This in itself is a huge bonus.

One thing you mentioned was "free certifications". For God's sake, get as many as these as possible! They are expensive to do on your own, so if the company are willing to pay to get you certified, then go for it! This is nearly as good as cash if it bolsters your CV.

Use the time you are given for personal projects to learn skills that the company might not certify you in.

I'm sure you know this, but money is not the "end all and be all" of a job, and it seems like you are getting plenty of perks that you might not enjoy in another organisation. If you are thinking of leaving, then do it when your company no longer has anything to offer you. It sounds like this is not the case yet, so hang on in there and get those certifications.

This may sound harsh, but be careful when figuring out what your market value is. I gathered from your post that you are in Technical Support. From my experience, tech support people tend to get a very inflated idea of what they should be paid, and sometimes do not realise that there is huge competition out there. Just be realistic is all.

Chrissie

When you feel undervalued in a job it very soon makes you not enjoy your working experience, but I don't really know whose post to agree with above!!
Perhaps yes look at other positions & see what comes out of them, maybe they also will provide free certification, or like another poster said, stay until you get as much from them as you can.....

I was in a similar situation. I had a 1st class hon deg in IT Mgt, 1.5 yrs hands on exp under my belt, moved 2hours from home to join a company in the midlands as a systems administrator. What they offered was pathetic so I refused, then they came back saying they'd give another €2k after 6 months so I decided I'd go with it for a while.
The workload was endless, only 2 of us there, 80+ end users, dealing also with customers, plus the product produced was IT related so we also had to make, produce & test the product 1ce per month which took 2 weeks each time, all this & every day tech support!
The people were lovely, mgt not so much, I worked really hard for 6months when my review came all comments were excellent but when € was mentioned they said they didn't do the €2k thing!!!!!
For over another year I negotiated with mgt for better money, getting an extra few 100 here & there, been told their hands were tied etc, etc. There was no benefits whatsoever so I told them I was leaving as soon as I got the chance, they kept telling me to reconsider as 'it's get better' etc, that was generally all I was worth, that ok, maybe a little bit more, but companies didn't pay well in the area for that type of position. (by bf at the time was 2 doors up from where I worked, doing the same type thing as me, he had a little more exp but was earning over €18k per yr more)

I left, got a job also in a rural location doing the same thing, less workload, a lot more appreciation, company phone etc, & I started at €9k more than I was getting in the previous company.

I really did love the previous job, but feeling so undervalued when I did so much & was so good at what I did, made me hate the place & it meant no future for me there. You may find yourself in the same situation.
Don't be afraid to stand up for yourself, you get as much thanks for it!

shakaman

Well here's my story, guess there's snippets from it that are applicable to your situation.

I worked for a large investment back in the IT sector designing and implementing trading system for 2.5 years on a graduate program. The pay was decent for a graduate but fro London as whole it was poor. I generally worked 8am-7pm without a lunch break over this period and made a v good name for myself within the department.

Now at the end of my period (1.5 yrs), big hints were dropped as to a big bonus (which everyone received annually according to performance) but when the time came I was promoted alright but with a rubbish bonus....was none too pleased because to be honest a title is worth damn all, show me the money!

So on I plodded through period 2 again working the long hours but now having more responsibility and even a couple of people working for me and at the end of the year I was even pulled in to a meeting..."Shak, you've had such a great year, name how much of a bonus do you want", I thought all my xmas's had come at once! So I consulted a few of my fellow employees and asked them what the going rate for a good year is. I went back to my boss and he said I'll see what I can do.

Bonus time came round and my bonus was 33% of what I asked for. I flipped the lid. Meetings were called with senior management to try and keep me in the firm blah blah, 3 period of your employment is traditionally big bonus day. Speaking to fellow graduates...I'm not the only one who got the run around.

Similar to yourself I heard of others with the same experience as me getting bigger bonuses but the excuse given was I only had a pot of x for my people, funnily enough I seemed to be only guy pis'ed on bonus day!

So I left and transferred to the Dublin office. I know approx 75% of what I did in London in a project which is less challenging than London but here's the key, I work 9-5pm. Bonuses won't be anything near london but then again my life is just overall so much better, I have more time to train, meet friends, work on my flat etc. I'm delighted with my move.

I guess the moral of my story is that bigger firms tend to give younger employees the runaround, intelligent eager employees are available by the bucket load (believe me I found out when applying for other firms in Dublin) so you are not indespensible despite what they say about your performance. Whereas older more experienced people (who may look like they're doing nothing) have that card to play when it comes to the negotiations table.

My plan is to gain enough experience here to be able to move elsewhere in a management capacity. The likelihood of me getting that here is subject to others moving on and the likelihood of that is similar to your own companies...slim.

Hope this helps!

scoot on

I was in a similar situation a few weeks ago. I finished college in May of this year. Last January I was lucky enough to get a really good position in a very large multi national company with an excellant package for a graduate. They asked me to start as soon as I could so I started 2 weeks after I finished my finals. 5 months later I was absolutely miserable. I've worked for 2 multi-nationals during my time in college but nothing prepared me for this. The department I was put in to gave me absolutely no training even though it was supposedly a graduate position, the tension and atomsphere in the department was appalling and a recent departmental survey has come back with shocking results. The department is completely top heavy with 1 managers for every 2 employees. They hired 2 graduates into the department, myself and another girl, and we are both leaving after 5 months. It has been one of the most valuable lessons I think I will ever learn in the work place. Nothing is worth what I have gone through in the last few months... And if as I hope I become successful in what I am doing I know exactly how "not to run a department"

mpento

When it comes to your job don't bluff. If you start this process you have to be able to make the choice of being able to walk away or be forever the company eunuch. Think about where you want to be (be careful that where you want to be is not the position of the person you are talking to!). If it is possible with the same company then tell them, this is where I want to be, tell me what I need to get there and can you help me? Giving them a clear message (not an ultimatium). If you don't get a clear response then start looking elsewhere sooner rather than later. Also consider if the lack of a clear response is because of the person or the agenda (there may be someone else who can give you a better response?) Also leave time issue open. That depends on you. If you get a positive response wait and see. Depending on you, set a time and then address the issue again, asking for a timeline, if there is nothing happenning. That is probably when you want to be a position to leave if you have to.

jrey1981

Sounds to me like some employers in this field are top-heavy havens for management to sit on their asses and cream the money off while the graduates and lower down staff do all the work for little reward.

I think if you have the experience then it cant do any harm to look for an employer who will place a higher value on you and your experience. Might be worth getting some interviews and if one leads to a job offer, you can always try going to your manager and say "I have been headhunted by company x who will pay me € x, can you match it?"

The worst thing that can happen is you stay where you are and try and negotiate for more money another way, perhaps along the lines others above have suggested.

WhiteWashMan

Confucius wrote:

Posting unreg to hide I.D...

Basics: I'm in a job that I love, great company, great people, but they're just not giving me enough money.
I'm working in a largish I.T. department (30ish people) in a large company. The department is split into sections, basically comprising of 1st/2nd level user support, and then other sections above it dealing with various bits.

At my last (and first ever) performance review, I was given a sparkling review with the promise of increased authority, responsibility and money. The authority and responsibility increased, but the money only kind of did. I was given a not insubstantial increase, but it was less than half of what I deemed reasonable for the quality and quantity of work I'd been doing. I had voluntarily worked well above and beyond my job spec in my first year, because I love what I do. My boss agreed that the pay rise didn't reflect my actual value, but explained that everyone's pay rise was poor because one individual in management got a large promotion (€10-€15k), eating up a lot of the IT Dept's salary budget for the year. I was willing to run with that.

Then, a short time later, a person was hired into a position in one of the other sections, for a job that wasn't really needed, a position worth about €45k. Later on, a person was hired into management to overview a section comprising of three people and a manager. That salary easily pays over €80k. Again, there was no real requirement to hire this person. My boss I trust as an honest guy - I would believe that he's being fed the "not enough money" lines by his superiors.

This really wouldn't bother me that much if I didn't think about the future. As it is, the department is ridiculously top-heavy in terms of management. There is one member of management for every two staff. Yes, you heard me - almost one-third of the department are in management. They're also top-heavy in terms of senior staff. People simply tend not to leave once they've been there a while. So there are a couple of people doing the same job as me, but who have 3-4 years on me, and have already worked in the other sections, filling in for people on leave, etc. In the section I would like to move into, nobody has left in the last 3 years, and nobody seems on the cusp of leaving. Leaving me with nowhere to get promoted to, and one or two people ahead of me in the queue. I would consider myself the better candidate for any promotion, but I couldn't see me getting promoted ahead of the long-timers without some serious friction and bitterness.

The pros are, as I've outlined above - great people, great craic, free certifications, and not mind-numbing work; As it is, I'm generally left to my own devices and am given a lot of slack to work on personal projects for the department, without having to account for my time or have menial tasks piled on top of me.

If the prospects were good, I wouldn't even be having this dilemma, but all I can see for the next few years is disappointing payrise after disappointing payrise until my boss ends up recommending I leave to get a job more worthy of me. I'm not long in the full-time working game, but I've become extremely ambitious after squandering a lot of time in my teens and in college, and I'm determined not to waste my potential.

I know people will suggest talking to my boss, but as I say, this is all new to me. How do approach someone for more money when they'll tell your their hands are tied, and that there's nowhere to promote you?

Thanks if you read this far

im not sure what the issue is here.

do you feel you are underpaid for what you do, or are you annoyed that other people seem to be overpaid.


i also wonder ast people who seem to think they know what everyone else is paid

can you please explain better what the actual annoyance is?

oh, and this is indeed better off on the work forum.

LegacyUser

Thanks for the replies so far.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

im not sure what the issue is here.

do you feel you are underpaid for what you do, or are you annoyed that other people seem to be overpaid.


i also wonder ast people who seem to think they know what everyone else is paid

can you please explain better what the actual annoyance is?

I guess now that I've thought about it, the problem isn't so much that I'm not getting paid enough. I guess it's combination of the underpay and the lack of available movement. That is, it seems as though no matter what amount of effort I put in, the chances of a promotion remain slim, and there's only a certain amount of money they can pay someone with my job description.

It wouldn't be an issue if the promotion prospects were there - my extra effort would bear fruit at some point. I guess if they paid me more I would end up having the exact same dilemma again, sine you're constantly increasing how much you think you're worth.

What started me off is that a lot of recruiters have started contacting me with postions for which I'm more than qualified, and some pay 20% more than I'm on now. I guess I'm really just frustrated that no-one has left so I can take their job