Eircom in row with regulator (ireland.com)

spanner_head

now everyone this is funny.
an article in ireland.com......

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/finance/2001/0917/fin4.htm



Eircom in row
with regulator

---

By John McManus
Eircom could be in breach of its telecommunications licence if it refuses to cooperate with the industry regulator over the introduction of i-stream, its new high speed internet service.

Eircom has told Ms Etain Doyle, the Director of Telecommunications Regulation that it will not revise the tariff for the new service despite the "serious concerns" that she has expressed.

Last Thursday the ODTR said it was unhappy with the price at which Eircom planned to allow other telecommunications companies use the €127 million (£100 million) network.

"Despite extensive contacts Eircom have failed to satisfy the Regulator that their proposed wholesale prices are cost orientated and non-discriminatory," said the ODTR.

Eircom has been given until this evening to provide more information justifying the pricing structure, and sources close to the regulator have warned that the phone company could be in breach of its licence if it did not comply.

Eircom claims that the regulator has had all the financial information needed to understand the price structure since last July, "but has failed to deal with the matter efficiently".

Eircom took a combative stance over the weekend, saying that the ODTR already had the information it needed and that it would not be providing additional data.

The ODTR has also told Eircom that it cannot launch the service for another three weeks to give the regulator time to study the information.

It is unclear what action the Regulator will take if Eircom does not comply with its directives.

"We will not be revising our prices because they are fair and reasonable and reflect the very substantial investment which we will be making in bringing broadband services to Ireland," said a spokesman yesterday.

Eircom plans to charge a €125 connection fee and a minimum €99 monthly rental fee for the new service which will allow customers vastly improved access to the internet.

Other telecoms companies will have to pay wholesale rates which will be the same connection fee and €75 per month rental.

The ODTR is concerned that the wholesale rates are too high and will discourage competitors.

"We have outlined our plans to introduce an innovative range of DSL-based broadband services which are priced on a cost orientated basis fully in line with our obligations.

The price structure includes an adequate margin across the portfolio," said Eircom yesterday.

The company spokesman said that Eircom would not introduce the service rather than be forced to operate it at a loss.

"Eircom is strongly of the view that the regulator's actions are putting at risk the introduction of broadband services to Ireland and the investment by Eircom of €127 million," he said.

jmcmanus@irish-times.ie

Lemming

Originally posted by spanner_head

Eircom could be in breach of its telecommunications licence if it refuses to cooperate with the industry regulator over the introduction of i-stream, its new high speed internet service.

ho ho ho ... could this be he ODTR displaying its "other set of VERY shiny and sharp" teeth (ie. licence withdrawal ??). I sincerely hope Eircom walks out of this fight with a VERY bloody face

"We will not be revising our prices because they are fair and reasonable and reflect the very substantial investment which we will be making in bringing broadband services to Ireland," said a spokesman yesterday.

I'd laugh, but this is just beyond funny OR tragic.

The price structure includes an adequate margin across the portfolio," said Eircom yesterday.

Adequate margin for what?? That new ivory backscratcher, marble settings and gold taps for Alfie and the boys at the top??

The company spokesman said that Eircom would not introduce the service rather than be forced to operate it at a loss.

Typical Eircom - "If we can't do this, then we're gonna spite everyone!"

"Eircom is strongly of the view that the regulator's actions are putting at risk the introduction of broadband services to Ireland and the investment by Eircom of ?127 million," he said.

hmm ... that's odd. I would have thought your restrictions and pricing would have put paid to the notion of broadband on this island singlehandedly??

I might point out that the regulator is there for a reason Eircom. I might also point out the regulator is put in place to protect consumers from people like you when you step out of line. So you might want to consider "why" the ODTR is taking exception with you.

infomat

This really has me worried.

Eircom can get out of this mess by deciding not to offer ADSL and it would appear that they cannot be compelled to do so.

Question ... If Eircom goes ahead and offers ADSL at the beginning of next month and I sign up for one of their offerings I will be tied to a year long contract but if the Regulator forces a price reduction will I be at a disadvantage.

For the last two years I have been seeking proper Internet Access and Digital Television and things have gotten worse rather than better. In the case of Internet Access I had SNL and then was barred and switched to ISDN only to discover that it is costing me a fortune.

In the case of Digital TV my options have reduced to the stage that the only possible option was NTL's Go Digital service announced last month. As soon as this service was announced I phoned NTL and was informed that as I live in the City Centre I would have the service within weeks. I was advised to contact them agin in a week or two ... I phoned this morning only to be told that the service was not yet available and that I may have to wait until the end of next year ... have NTL lied to the Regulator when they announced the introduction of their (one way) Digital TV Service?

Despite all our efforts (setting up IrelandOffline, etc.) it is possible that we have achieved nothing ... ADSL may never happen or it is going to be too expensive, flat rate access is unlikely to be on offer and NTL's interactive services are unlikely to spread outside the areas where it is already available.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by infomat
This really has me worried.
Eircom can get out of this mess by deciding not to offer ADSL and it would appear that they cannot be compelled to do so.

Question ... If Eircom goes ahead and offers ADSL at the beginning of next month and I sign up for one of their offerings I will be tied to a year long contract but if the Regulator forces a price reduction will I be at a disadvantage.

The ODTR is only concerned with wholesale prices. If you sign a contract for a year at a particular price, there is no compulsion on Eircom to pass on any savings to you from a lower wholesale price.

infomat

Originally posted by SkepticOne

The ODTR is only concerned with wholesale prices. If you sign a contract for a year at a particular price, there is no compulsion on Eircom to pass on any savings to you from a lower wholesale price.

That's what I suspected.

neverhappen

Question ... If Eircom goes ahead and offers ADSL at the beginning of next month and I sign up for one of their offerings I will be tied to a year long contract but if the Regulator forces a price reduction will I be at a disadvantage.

and what happens if the trialists sign up and then eircom are forced to delay the release ?

E-Hub

"The company spokesman said that Eircom would not introduce the service rather than be forced to operate it at a loss. "

the time should have checked here, ive been saying this for months,

Again, and i cant stress this enough, could we please send the odtr a letter of support for there action, adsl under eircoms terms wil ldo no good for the country, about 1% of people will get it

infomat

I received an email from the ODTR yesterday indicating that Eircom have until 17:00 today (Tuesday) to respond to her request regarding wholesale price and then a statement will be issued.

However things are not looking good as it looks like Eircom intends to ignore her and if they do all she can do is fine them £1500.

Kix

Originally posted by infomat
...all she can do is fine them £1500.

It's just too crazy. I want to cry.

K

ando

you have to be joking... £1500, are you serious ???????????? So this is what the ODTR's teeth looks like ... Its a joke

I rang eircom yesturday and was enquiring about their dsl and I was given the impression that no-matter what, adsl would be launched and orders would be taken from october 2nd ...

magee

I know this is a little off topic, but I wonder if you can help I am looking to get in contact with Joe McCarthy, the telecoms consultant that spoke at the Ireland Offline seminar about dry copper pairs and their potential as a solution to the local loop problem. I believe he sometimes posts here.

If Joe is here, or if someone has an email address or phone number for him, I would really appreciate it if that could be sent to mmagee@tribune.ie.

Thanks for your help, and good luck with Ireland Offline,
Matthew Magee
Ebusiness Correspondent
The Sunday Tribune

neverhappen

from todays (tue) irish times...

odtr has consulted the comp auth.

she may use competition law instead of the 1500 fine.


http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/finance/2001/0918/fin13.htm

yellum

Originally posted by magee
....... am looking to get in contact with Joe McCarthy......
If Joe is here, or if someone has an email address or phone number for him, I would really appreciate it if that could be sent to mmagee@tribune.ie.

His contact details might be in the membership list, which Martin Harran would have or Elana or David.

neverhappen

From business and finance monday evening.

[URL=http://]http://new.businessandfinance.ie/livenews.htm?a=156393;s=rollingnews.htm[/URL]

a quote...

Eircom may cancel its high-speed internet offering, ASDL, if it cannot reach agreement with the telecoms regulator with regard to pricing the service.

"We won't pull the service, the telecoms regulator will kill off the service," Eircom spokesman Gerry O'Sullivan told Business & Finance Online this evening.

hmmm

Chickens are coming home to roost with the Regulator finally admitting in public she doesn't have the necessary powers to perform her job. Why we had to wait until now for this to be acknowledged is beyond me.

The price of euro 50 as quoted in that article (if accurate) is *still too high* in comparison with equivalent operators. Just because Eircom is grossly inefficient doesn't mean competitors should be forced to subsidise them.

Bard

... I might just point out that a representative of the ODTR does read this forum. This is a *very good thing* as it means they get a proper feel for what the Internet users out there really think... what the "mood on the ground" is.

Good old us, influencing the powers that be :cool:

infomat

Originally posted by hmmm
Chickens are coming home to roost with the Regulator finally admitting in public she doesn't have the necessary powers to perform her job. Why we had to wait until now for this to be acknowledged is beyond me.

The price of euro 50 as quoted in that article (if accurate) is *still too high* in comparison with equivalent operators. Just because Eircom is grossly inefficient doesn't mean competitors should be forced to subsidise them.

As far as I remember she has already made it clear that she need extra power(s). She (her team) is trying her best to carry out a very difficult job under very difficult circumstances.

A reduction from 75 to 50 Euros is a large reduction in wholesale price.

IKiigan

Originally posted by neverhappen
From business and finance monday evening.

[URL=http://]http://new.businessandfinance.ie/livenews.htm?a=156393;s=rollingnews.htm[/URL]

a quote...

Eircom may cancel its high-speed internet offering, ASDL, if it cannot reach agreement with the telecoms regulator with regard to pricing the service.

"We won't pull the service, the telecoms regulator will kill off the service," Eircom spokesman Gerry O'Sullivan told Business & Finance Online this evening.

Well, this is clearly rubbish, just Eircom spin-doctoring. Rather than be made out as being anti-competitive, naturally they would wish to make it appear as if the ODTR is the one jeopardizing the state of internet access and telecoms in Ireland.

As they have stated repeatedly, Eircom have made a significant investment in their ADSL service. They won't allow those costs to be simply "written off as a loss" over such disputes with the regulator. They'll wipe their bloody nose and try to come up with a more acceptible wholesale pricing model. Which is exactly what they should be doing.

Don't stress it. Personally I would rather see ADSL not released at all, than see it released with the current pricing model / product offerings. I'd love to see Eircom cancel their i-Stream service and take a E127M loss, but no such luck unfortunately.

hmmm

50 is too high, the size of the drop is irrelevent. It still means you're looking at a minimum of about 60/70 squids before anyone can offer anything. The Regulator needs to be comparing prices in comparable countries and across Europe (as I believe/hope she is doing).

The powers thing is a long running gripe of mine. The Data protection & competition people have long been saying *publically* they don't have enough resources. The ODTR has not, and even when given the opportunity at the seminar we had to rely on the ESAT ceo pointing out the 1500/revocation of licence thing. Having to go to the competition authority because they don't have sufficient powers themselves is pathetic imho.

But after saying all that, I welcome the ODTR intervention, and anything that can be done to prevent Eircom stiffling competition is good news. It's up to us as consumers to tell Eircom where to go when they try to impose unjustifiable price models on us.

ekehoe

Originally posted by ando
you have to be joking... £1500, are you serious ???????????? So this is what the ODTR's teeth looks like ... Its a joke

The ODTR has two routes...one is the £1500 fine, or pulling Eircom's license. Personally, I'd love to see them pull it, just to make Eircom realize that they are not the be-all end-all.

Eircom also cannot offer a product to its retail arm (remember, there are separate departments in Eircom) from its wholesale arm that operates at a loss...this was repeatedly told to us in an Eircom meeting.

I'm waiting to see what the ODTR says tonight...they're trying their damndest, and I will give them the credit they deserve. The woman who is the LLU queen in Ireland knows her stuff, and is probably just as frustrated as we are about this junk. Their hands are tied by lots of red tape, and hopefully when the ODTR review comes up, IrelandOffline will be submitting our opinions on their powers (along with all of you, yes? :-) ).

E

ando

Originally posted by IKiigan
Personally I would rather see ADSL not released at all, than see it released with the current pricing model / product offerings.

ah man, I completely disagree with you ... completely. There is ppl out there paying around £300 a month for internet access for home and work (56k), and I pay a great deal iswell for internet access at home. Even though the pricing of eircom's dsl is high, I'd still pay it, as I would be losing out if i did not.

I'd love to see Eircom cancel their i-Stream service and take a E127M loss, but no such luck unfortunately.

Again, I do not wish to see ireland stuck with isdn and 56k for another 4 or so years ... Believe it or not, the price of adsl will come down nomatter what, like isdn did. That is why I want adsl to be launched now, nomatter what the price, at least we have it

Mountjoy Mugger

Slightly O.T. Elana, but since you brought it up: when is the review of ODTR due?

neverhappen

The ODTR has two routes...one is the £1500 fine, or pulling Eircom's license. Personally, I'd love to see them pull it, just to make Eircom realize that they are not the be-all end-all.

Is this realistic ? What are the repercussions of pulling their licence ? Overnight everyone's telephones stop working ?

OTOH, are the penalties open to the comp auth much bigger that 1500 ?

Hopefully, Eircom have already invested too much to just can broadband and wait till NTL force them to market. If they have, and the comp auth / odtr sanctions, might just make them bring out the product at a realistic price (in relation to calculated costs), and if eircom are inefficient, they will just have to get more efficient rather than just passing their costs on (to customers and competitors).

infomat

Originally posted by neverhappen


Is this realistic ? What are the repercussions of pulling their licence ? Overnight everyone's telephones stop working ?

OTOH, are the penalties open to the comp auth much bigger that 1500 ?

Hopefully, Eircom have already invested too much to just can broadband and wait till NTL force them to market. If they have, and the comp auth / odtr sanctions, might just make them bring out the product at a realistic price (in relation to calculated costs), and if eircom are inefficient, they will just have to get more efficient rather than just passing their costs on (to customers and competitors).

There is no way their licence can be withdrawn, so that is not an option.

Have Eircom actually spent the money on ADSL or is it a planned spend?

If my experience of NTL is any indication there is no need for Eircom to worry about NTL offering competition.

ando

Originally posted by infomat
Have Eircom actually spent the money on ADSL or is it a planned spend?

I'm sure it has already been spent, which if so, would lead me to believe that eircom will not abandon their adsl

Kix

Elana,

I went hunting this morning and turned up the draft revision of the Communications (Regulation) Bill. It's here.

Two things stand out, as far as I can tell - I haven't had the time to read it thoroughly:

1. The consultative phase (General Scheme) already is completed and the bill is currently being formally drafted. As far as I can interpret what I've read, it should be finished within the current year.
2. The summary penalties have not been revised, and are still £1,500.

There also is provision for a fine, on conviction of an offence under the act, of up to £500,000 and £5,000 day thereafter for as long as the offence remains in effect. I take it this means that if the regulator can only impose small fines until they take the offending party to court

Wondering what constituted an offence under the act, I did a bit of further hunting here. This document lists the changes to the P&T Act which brought the ODTR into being. The Regulator has full power to issue, amend and suspend licences at her own discretion, as far as I can tell. To contravene the terms of your licence constitutes an offence.

Now, the final thing I want to know is - what are the current terms of Eircom's licence, is it in the public domain? I've already spent a while digging all this out so perhaps someone else can take it from here. Are Eircom contravening the terms of their current licence?

K

IKiigan

Originally posted by ando

That is why I want adsl to be launched now, nomatter what the price, at least we have it

I dunno ... that is the attitude I have a problem with ... the attitude that Irish internet users are so hungry for bandwidth that we will take any old horsesh*t, regardless of the price / limitations.

Personally I think the gripes being pushed forward by IOFFL are stronger if we don't have any broadband at all. In a few weeks time, we will (on paper at least) "have broadband" albeit prohibitively expensive and limited as a service. So one might say to IOFFL "What are you guys moaning about? You have your ADSL, isn't that enough for you?" etc. That sort of thinking can take credibility away from IOFFL and what it wants to achieve.

For me, it's an "all or nothing" result that I want. I want my net access (a) affordable and (b) broadband or else Eircom can keep it, thank you very much. That's why I am in favour of boycotting the I-Stream service. It was clear from the seminar in the Conrad that Eircom have no idea what the consumer actually wants, so it's not a bad idea to show them that actually yes it's good that they have invested in ADSL but the pricing and capping has got to change or we the consumers will not be interested.

Sorry for going slightly off-topic. All strictly IMO.

Regards

Ian

vinnyfitz

This thread is wrestling with the same two issues that seem to run through most of the recent discussions:

1. Short-term - how can we embarass Eircom into reducing their tariffs? This might include putting it up to Esat to say whether or not they can compete, calling publicly on the Regulator to take steps and welcoming her involving the Competition Authority, getting media coverage for the foreign data members here have dug out, making alliances with like minded campaigns........

2. Long Term - how can we make sure the regulator gets the powers to do a better job in the longer term? The Communications Regulation Bill was promised by O'Rourke 12 months ago. It is now both overdue and clearly not tough enough (See Kix's research). In fact its appeals procedure could make things worse (delay things more)!.........

Maybe these discussions warrant separate threads?

Kix

Originally posted by vinnyfitz
The Communications Regulation Bill ... is now both overdue and clearly not tough enough. In fact its appeals procedure could make things worse!

Agreed Vinny, the statutory fines are a joke and we all know how protracted legal battles can be.

Still, I don't know if I'd agree with your call for a short term/long term split. Nothing has happened quickly so far. The bill may well be in place before the current Eircom/ODTR wrangle plays itself out. Put another way, this bill may currently reflect our best hope.

For the committee: Are the lines of communication to the minister open? It would be very good to know how this bill is progressing and if the penalties listed in the draft have been revised.

K


[Edit] Edited for spelling.

Boston

ah man, I completely disagree with you ... completely. There is ppl out there paying around £300 a month for internet access for home and work (56k), and I pay a great deal is well for internet access at home. Even though the pricing of eircom's DSL is high, I'd still pay it, as I would be losing out if i did not.

This Form of adsl is identical to the early 56k except faster, do your really want a situation were nothing changes for another 10 years and then when it does, it does so extremely slowly?

It’s far far better to have this sorted from the start, rather then to spend year trying to get eircom to review their prices. We have lived with these extremely high prices for so long, what are another few months; some of us have been waiting for ADSL for nearly 4 years.

Call me an old cynic but I have to feel this was all so eircom could get us to except their price’s, they go off and come back with a toucan jester and we all go running for ADSL thinking, that its as good as it will get. This whole “the odtr has had enough information to decide since July” approach doesn’t follow, like what’s your point, they aren’t actually making a real argument. * Note: July, weren’t they meant to launch but in February and March, were they lying then and expect us to believe them now*

Also eircom claim to be looking towards the future, Every day more and more bandwidth is being added to Ireland and the world, eventually we will reach a stage that’s there more bandwidth then we could ever use. Yet eircom continue to say this is not the case. In 5 Years time it will be almost laughable that any isp charged p/m.
Doesn’t it make sense to run a service at a relative loss in profits, (they wont loose money just wont make as much) Save in the knowledge that as every years passes, and bandwidth gets cheaper as their more of it, there margins will continue to rise.
This removes a block to the uptake of ADSL, and is the approach of pretty much all eu ADSL ISP’s

I know many will use Australia as an example, but where’s Australia? Only hundreds of miles away from any were and no were near the rest of the developed world. It is not wonder that bandwidth is a premium there, but not here.

Why do you believe ADSL will save you any money what so ever, look below?

56K 1891 access
• Subscription fee. £10 a month
• Charging is per minute
• Cost is a minimum .8p p/m
• with a pm charge of 2.4p min (min 3 minute per mb)
ADSL
• Subscription is £75 pm
• Addition equipment charge for first year bring that to £95
• No charge for online time
• Cost p/m is 2.6p

chernobyl

E-Hub in the house.

wazzup man.

yellum

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=184&si=512106&issue_id=5262

EIRCOM has told the telecommunications regulator it will take her office to court if she tries to impose a pricing regime on its proposed wholesale high speed internet DSL services.


In a stinging letter sent to the Office of the Director for Telecommunications Regulation (ODTR) last night, Eirocm said it will "immediately seek legal redress in the event of such a price structure being imposed."

Another to add to the excuse list

neverhappen

In the letter the former state company concludes: "It is in none of our interests to continue to respond to each other in this fashion, as the result will be losses for this company and another setback for the development of Broadband Ireland."

Hmm. The indo is spinning with Eircon on this. I wonder why....

Anyone keeping track of their editorial position on llu?

Bard

above two posts merged into this thread.

--

Bard (_yer man the mod_)

Mountjoy Mugger

ODTR site seems inaccessible at the mo. I wonder are they getting ready to post a reaction to Eircom's latest ploy.

neverhappen

ODTR site seems inaccessible at the mo.

The site seemed to have the nimda virus yesterday evening. Fixing that up I'd say...

hmmm

They still have it and the sites back up to spread it around. Tsk it's all a big conspiracy against IOFFL members I tell you

yellum

That'd never happen if it was on an Eircom webserver....