Final table situation

Lafortezza

Final table of a tournament on Absolute Poker. Details are a touch sketchy but this is how I remember it.

UTG has 400k
Lafortezza (Button) has 320k
SB has 250k
BB has 200k.
Antes are 250 per player and blinds are 5k/10k. So 16k in the pot at the start.

Game is pretty tight, very few flops being seen and I probably have a slightly LAG image, since I've been reraising all-in, overbetting pots and regularly stealing blinds, more often than an average number of premium hands would allow at any rate.
The hands I have shown down have been very good though, I haven't been caught with my hand in the cookie jar yet.

Back to the hand, UTG folds, I have Js8s and raise to 30k total. SB folds.
BB has a long think and reraises to 60k total.
He has 140k remaining and my read of him is reasonably tight/ABC but able to get tricky if he feels like it.

So it's back to me to call 30k into a pot of ~100k. There's a slight possibility that BB might be on a resteal countering my Button raise.

In this situation I didn't know whether to fold/call/push.

RoundTower

Call, and fold or check behind if you don't hit the flop. I think you are getting too good a price to fold if there is any chance he doesn't have an overpair, i.e. even if his range is AA-JJ and AKs. You certainly can't put him on a range that tight. There is just about enough money behind that you can play the hand, since if checked to twice you can make a bet on 4th street big enough to make him fold but not pot commit you if he raises all in.

If there is only a "slight possibility" that he is on a resteal it is -EV to move all in.

I could have this all wrong, but I think I'm finally getting the hang of these tournament things.

Lafortezza

The way the table rhythm has been going, it was usually first to commit their chips won the hand.
If I called preflop, and the flop came A8x or AJx I would have to bet it if checked to. And could then find myself in a world of hurt.
It's the min-reraise that put me off. If he had made a bigger raise then it's an easy fold. But the min-reraise could be wanting me to get involved when he has a big pair or AK. Or it could be a very clever way of making it look like he has a big hand when in fact he is restealing with rags.

If I call and he pushes the flop, there's not many flops I can call him on apart from if I hit a really big hand since his PF (possible) strength could indicate a big pair.

Hectorjelly

lafortezza wrote:

If I call and he pushes the flop, there's not many flops I can call him on apart from if I hit a really big hand since his PF (possible) strength could indicate a big pair.

Then just fold. Allthough it looks like you are being priced in those 30k chips are usefull and your not going to hit enough flops to make it profitable. If you both had 500k behind Id call. He is first to act on the flop and will probably pot commit himself, your chance of flopping a draw and pushing him off are slim.

I think he has AJ/Q or maybe AK and I think a push might get him off it or worse hands; but its probably not going to be profitable pushing here because I think he calls a lot and he obviously will never fold AA KK which he will have some of the time.

The next time I got minreraised at this table I would push instantly.

ocallagh

All-in is a bad move.. I would call. You might get lucky on the flop, but more importantly you call because of your table image.

You mentioned you're building your stack a lot by making those raises and intimidating the table... Dropping to a min re-raise is terrible for your image. It highlights the fact that you're messing around and it also gives them confidence in making a play against you. Flat call and check fold if you miss.

jem

I would agree, sometimes u have to make a call when u don't want to for table immage etc

Daithio

Yeah I think so too. I think HJ's reasoning is correct but table image is extremely important at this stage of a tournament.

Lafortezza

How likely does anyone think that his min-reraise preflop could be a resteal? The first thought that went through my mind was "You cheeky fúcker" and the cursor definitely threatened all-in button.

Lplate

lafortezza wrote:

The first thought that went through my mind was "You cheeky fúcker"

Instinct. The greatest weapon in Holdem, ( I know I'll get slated by the science guys) but good instinct will make harder plays easy. All in!

Lafortezza

Yeah, it just struck me as a weakish tight player's rebluff, who didn't want to commit all his chips to the pot.

The Troll

I'm always slightly worried about min reraises preflop from tight players. The milking alarm bells start ringing immediately. I've seen this play on countless occasions from tight players trying to cash in on bullets or cowboys.

ocallagh is correct though. A flat call is the play here simply to keep your table image. If you hit a monster on the flop great, if not at least your raises will still be respected.

Culchie

A min raise is a great way of setting panic stations around the table with a mediocre hand as well, I love using it as a tactic, so I wouldn't be so definitive about putting him on a monster hand.

I'd call this, you have the odds to do so, and evaluate thereafter.

Hectorjelly

I really dont think its worth the 30k just to keep up a table image. If this was happening on a regular occurance then I would be worried, but you have been raising a good bit and have been played back at. Nothing to worry about, youve ran into a real hand this time so fold and move on. If I called this preflop it would be with the intention of backing any flop where I can beat AK with my stack.I think moving in is better than calling.

The Troll

Hectorjelly wrote:

I think moving in is better than calling.

Can't agree with that.

Hectorjelly

To me calling is just throwing away 30k chips. The stacks are no way near deep enough to make playing J8s profitable. At least moving in you get to see all 5 cards, and you never know he might fold.

ocallagh

Interesting discussion, This is quite an important decision. I'd like to hear what others make of it. I really think this is a call.

(Sorry just re-read... I always presume the player in question is male! not being sexist but not arsed changing it!)

His position: When you make the call he only has 140K and he has no idea what you have. You have showed down strong hands, and his tournament life is at stake here. If he has nothing his only move is All-in, and this is not so eay to do without a hand. He is in a tough spot unless he has a very strong hand. If he has junk he certainly won't try this again.

Your position: You're not in that bad a spot by calling, and you're certainly not throwing away 30K. You could easily hit. Even if you miss and he takes it you are still fine with 260K. There is not much difference between 260 and 290 with the blinds so high. Sure in 8 hands you'll lose the same or win the same. You can make 30K back in 2 hands.

Table image is so important at this stage. I've seen this happen so many times when there are 4 players left in an MTT, 3 of whom are tight players. If you play aggressively, the 3 tight players happily give up pot after pot. They sub-consciously concede 1st position (for the time being). They know you're gonna bust one of them out soon enough and they don't want to be the first to playback at you. They decide if they can just keep above the other two they can get heads up and then take you on.. It is ridiculous how much you can get away with... They presume you're on a roll and you're hitting good cards in the range of...AT, KQ, AJ, AK, TT etc.. They're thinking "But what if he has it this time, no I'll fold and wait for the next one.." The second you fold to a min re-raise you're in trouble. It is such a weak fold.. The BB probably has AA, but the other 2 aren't thinking that.. The other 2 have just seen how easy it is to playback, and the BB now has a feel for it!!! If you fold to a min re-raise they now put your range of raising hands somewere between 56 and AJ. You can be sure they'll be moving all-in with KQ, A8, 55 the next time you raise them.. Keep the pressure on at all times, even if it costs you a few chips now and again.

The Troll

ocallagh wrote:

Interesting discussion, This is quite an important decision. I'd like to hear what others make of it. I really think this is a call.

(Sorry just re-read... I always presume the player in question is male! not being sexist but not arsed changing it!)

His position: When you make the call he only has 140K and he has no idea what you have. You have showed down strong hands, and his tournament life is at stake here. If he has nothing his only move is All-in, and this is not so eay to do without a hand. He is in a tough spot unless he has a very strong hand. If he has junk he certainly won't try this again.

Your position: You're not in that bad a spot by calling, and you're certainly not throwing away 30K. You could easily hit. Even if you miss and he takes it you are still fine with 260K. There is not much difference between 260 and 290 with the blinds so high. Sure in 8 hands you'll lose the same or win the same. You can make 30K back in 2 hands.

Table image is so important at this stage. I've seen this happen so many times when there are 4 players left in an MTT, 3 of whom are tight players. If you play aggressively, the 3 tight players happily give up pot after pot. They sub-consciously concede 1st position (for the time being). They know you're gonna bust one of them out soon enough and they don't want to be the first to playback at you. They decide if they can just keep above the other two they can get heads up and then take you on.. It is ridiculous how much you can get away with... They presume you're on a roll and you're hitting good cards in the range of...AT, KQ, AJ, AK, TT etc.. They're thinking "But what if he has it this time, no I'll fold and wait for the next one.." The second you fold to a min re-raise you're in trouble. It is such a weak fold.. The BB probably has AA, but the other 2 aren't thinking that.. The other 2 have just seen how easy it is to playback, and the BB now has a feel for it!!! If you fold to a min re-raise they now put your range of raising hands somewere between 56 and AJ. You can be sure they'll be moving all-in with KQ, A8, 55 the next time you raise them.. Keep the pressure on at all times, even if it costs you a few chips now and again.

Bang on.

Hectorjelly

Everyone calls here because they think they are being priced in. Then the flop comes up and they have no idea what to do. You wouldnt normally call a reraise with J8s, but they feel priced in because its only 30k more to them. When you call the raise and then check fold the flop, its going to be just as bad for your image as folding preflop. Whilst most poker players are stupid they arent that stupid. If you call the min raise and then fold the flop they will correctly surmise that you were raising with pretty much any two cards and that you felt committed to calling the reraise because it was a min reraise. They are just as likely to play back at you from there on whether you call the reraise or not, but if you dont call you have 30k more chips to play with.

Keeping the pressure on means playing aggressively, it doesnt mean spewing chips in a completely unprofitable manner. In fact if the BB is likely to have KK or AA then calling has some serious reverse implied odds for the rest of your stack.

Culchie

Yesterday, when I looked at this I said call, now I wonder.

One question to you HJ though. The reasoning for a call is based on being priced in, you are being offered favourable pot odds based on on the J8 holding.
The true odds are based on probability of an event happening.

Those odds +3/1 are attractive to most hands holdings.
If we turn down these odds, should we turn down 5/1 odds on drawing to a nut flush draw if it happens, when it's a 3/1 probability of happening?

Hectorjelly

Culchie wrote:

Yesterday, when I looked at this I said call, now I wonder.

One question to you HJ though. The reasoning for a call is based on being priced in, you are being offered favourable pot odds based on on the J8 holding.
The true odds are based on probability of an event happening.

Those odds +3/1 are attractive to most hands holdings.
If we turn down these odds, should we turn down 5/1 odds on drawing to a nut flush draw if it happens, when it's a 3/1 probability of happening?

No. If you thought your opponent had AK AQ or something that you can outflop then you would call for sure, but the problem is if he has something like AA then not only are you not getting the odds to call but some flops result in you losing your stack. Obviously the odd flop results in getting your opponents stack as well!

AmarilloFats

lafortezza wrote:

Game is pretty tight, very few flops being seen and I probably have a slightly LAG image, since I've been reraising all-in, overbetting pots and regularly stealing blinds

Given this is how you have been playing, I don't think one itty bitty fold is gonna affect your LAG image too adversely. You are NOT gonna hit enuff flops to make a call profitable.
I like folding here...And IF you fold here... Then I like pushing next time you are min raised.

ocallagh

I'm not convinced at all that folding is the only move, or that All In is better than a call...

Daniel Negreanu talks about the exact same situation in this post:

http://fullcontactpoker.com/2005-poker-articles.php?subaction=showfull&id=1118111699&archive=&start_from=&ucat=5&

In this situation he had 400K, raised to 45K with 96 and the BB doubled to 100K... have a read and see how he plays it..

Lafortezza

Hectorjelly wrote:

Everyone calls here because they think they are being priced in.

If Villains hand ranges from rags to AA, how are we not being priced in?

Hectorjelly

lafortezza wrote:

If Villains hand ranges from rags to AA, how are we not being priced in?

Because you dont know what he has.