To disengage

pearsquasher

For those in arts where the idea of not-fighting becomes critical to survival how do you find the idea of disengaging from the fight?

I mean maybe jujustu, aikido, krav magna, classical karate, systema, self defence courses etc One's where fighting isn't necessarily the reason d'etre... the kind of stuff bodyguards, mental-health staff, garda, prison officers etc possibly traiin in.

I find it facinating myself and these days sometimes find myself playing around with trying to disengage with an agressor mentally as well as physically. I don't just mean doing counter-punches or counter-locks but being a slippery fecker and just trying to not fight the person(s). It's interesting on a pyschological level when you feel the person grabbing, holding and punching you - wanting to engage with you. Interesting to try and just not be there - both mentally and physically - to train the "flight" response as much as the "fight" one.

Anyone here do similar stuff? It comes up now and then in my training and was wondering if it's explored much elsewhere.

pearsquasher

Hmm.. I thought this was a "Self Defence" and "Martial Arts" board.

Anyone got ANY thoughts on this aspect of Self defence/Martial Arts? Do you talk about it in class and practice techniques involving it?


It comes up with multiple fighting, knowing when the odds are against you - (e.g if a weapon is involved), if its not worth it, if there's an out, if you have back-up coming (e.g with security people), if it its a bit public, if there are friendlies around, if you're scared, if you have nothing to prove...... some of the things that seem to be present during most unwanted confrontations.

After all, the reasons for actually needing to engage with somebody head on seem to so unbievably rare that training for that 100% without considering the above seems pretty wastefull to me.

This is outside of a sporting context of course... where it IS head-on fight-until-the-end skill assesment, which is fine.

So, anyone?

mark.leonard

I would imagine that once you are in the fight trying to disenguage would be detrimental to your health. I think the time to disenguage is before the fight starts.

Dyr

I was going to make that point but mark used bigger words than i would so i wont bother

pearsquasher

I think we can all agree if we recognise the pre-fight conditions and are able to avoid a fight, we should do that.

But, I'm talking about when, mid-fight, the things i mentioned above happen. What if staying fighting seems a bit more detrimental to your health than making an exit strategy? I mean, do you train to recognise when the odds go against you its best to quit without injury? I'm pretty sure it's studied in the military as well as self defence classes.

Sure, under stress, this could be difficult, but does anyone here at least think about it or maybe even experiment with it? Is it in your curriculum perhaps? If not, why not? I understand that sporting arts would not really train like this - because you'd simply loose your match i imagine - and jumping out of the ring would sort of confound the coach!

What about the TMAers, the Classical schools, the combat arts, the self-defence people here? Ever practice disengagement?

Millionaire

Yeah we do quite a bit of this type of training. Psychological self defence stuff. do role plays, scenarios etc to replicate how a situation builds up before the attacker hits you.

remember this, if you are not in range and have your "fence" up, very hard for him to hit you.

better yet even, do not even bother to engage verbally, or give him any attention or energy (ok different if your a cop or bodyguard and thats you job). just keep walking , be aware, but keep moving in the opposite direction and you will rarely have a problem.

I rarely, say if someone stops me on the street to ask the "time" , automatically i have a little fence in place, awareness goes up, and hes well out of arms reach of me. if I do not like the look or the vibe, i just ignore them and keep walking.

the few times I have been attacked, i did not follow this rule , guard was down, usually because I had beer on board, and i was a sitting duck.

see some of Geoff Thompsons stuff for more info. thats where I get alof of my ideas. or Lee Morrission is another good guy for similar stuff and good practical, field tested techniques that work.

pearsquasher

Some good points there. Most of all that is pre-fight though isn't it?
What about mid-fight?


I myself had an altercation that, if i didn't disengage, i knew it would result in the agressor being injured, which would involve emotional and possibly criminal impact on me personally. It's this halting of the natural urge to fight back or to keep the fight going or to even try and subdue somebody who is totally out of control, that i'm interested in. I'm talking about being inthe middle of the physical and realising you don't want to be there.

Scenario training probably helps alright and we do some too. I think it also can also come into play if you find yourself with a training partner that seems a bit overly keen to muscle something on or has an attitude. I think it can be profitable to learn to slip out of there instead of taking them on.

Dyr

pearsquasher wrote:

I think we can all agree if we recognise the pre-fight conditions and are able to avoid a fight, we should do that.

But, I'm talking about when, mid-fight, the things i mentioned above happen. What if staying fighting seems a bit more detrimental to your health than making an exit strategy? I mean, do you train to recognise when the odds go against you its best to quit without injury? I'm pretty sure it's studied in the military as well as self defence classes.

ummm out in the real world if you get a chance to skidaddle mid-digging match then surely you have an obligation to do so regardless of whether or not the odds are for or agin you? Why would you need a decision making process to decide whether to exit or continue participating in a fight?

But yes, when i stick spar i often disengage and move away, just for the giggles

pearsquasher

Bambi.. I agree with you. If you can disengage you should, unless THAT is detrimental to your health. Right now i can't think of a scenario where staying fighting would serve you better than discontinuing. [edit]: I can ....protecting somebody weaker

Why would you need a decision making process to decide whether to exit or continue participating in a fight?

Because the emotinal involvment that a real fight entails inhibits rationall decison-making, by all accounts, and therefore, training the body to disengage, when the mind is a bit of a blur and unable to, may increase your chances of not-fighting, not hurting someone and not getting yourself into a physical and legal mess. If you train the body to engage all the time, this may kick in under stress and you may escalate things more than hindsight would have let you.

loz

pearsquasher wrote:

Scenario training probably helps alright and we do some too.

Not sure scenario training would overcome what the effect of adrenalin hitting would do in a real situation. I think i would have little time to reflect upon the emotional impact of what im doing while defending my child, wife etc from said "street person"

Roper

All fighting is high risk and 'detrimental to your health'. If you have a strategy for getting out it should be a quick dispatching of your attacker. If you're talking about someone getting the better of you and you wanting the fight to end, than that would come down to your actual physical training and not any preconceived plan for de-escalation. Once the blood is up, it takes a lot to take it down.

Ballisong

I've worked the doors of pubs and clubs for a few years now and i have found that if you are unable to talk someone down from a violent confrontation and are unable to make an escape, as i would be in my profession, then you are going to have to see the situation out to it's conclusion. If the person can't be talked out of what he's about to do then it is unlikely that you will be unable to disengage and get away clean, he will probably not stop trying to attack you. I have found that if i am at work it is best to restrain the guy untill he has calmed down.

I've spent over an hour restraining a guy while waiting for the Gardi (it was race week in Galway, very busy) and he struggled on and off the whole time. This type of aggression is not easy to get away from, and the person is probably intent on doing you real harm. In my experience disengaging in the middle of combat is not really an option.

When i'm not at work my response has to be different, I do not have the luxury of calling for back up over the radio, if I feel that the aggressor isn't backing down and i can't walk away for what ever reason, i'm trapped or my family or loved ones are at risk, then i will end the confrontation as quickly and as violently as possible and make my escape. I say violently because if I am dealing with multiple opponents then I want to use the shock value of my first encounter to to make any other attackers pause even if only for a second and try and make my escape, and to make sure my attacker does not want to continue with his assault.

I realise that there are both legal and moral repercussions for your actions but when it comes to your personal safety and that of your family and friends then there are difficult choices that have to be made, but keep in mind that when an attacker is kicking someone on the ground, it's unlikely that he's picking targets that will do the least amount of damage. You should always try to protect your quality of life whatever that may be.

pearsquasher

[edit]see below

pearsquasher

I think i would have little time to reflect upon the emotional impact of what im doing while defending my child, wife etc from said "street person"

Once the blood is up, it takes a lot to take it down.

..exactly!... which is why i'm wondering does anyone TRAIN to combat these auto-responses. I mean we all train to attack more efficiently, overcoming stress and lack-of-time. Why not train to escape more efficiently, overcoming these things too? Which is better?

pearsquasher

Fair enough Balisong.. that all seems reasonable enough to me.
It's a fair point that door-work has less need for disengagement the way i described. - and restraining, like you've described, seems the better option alright. I assume though that you'd have moslty pre-fight tactics going on here though - de-escelation, awareness and all that, as well as backup and a professional responsibilty towards your employer and its patrons. You've come at a good angle on the whole discussion though.

While you're there... i'm sure you've witnessd enough fighting outside clubs/bars to see that one or other of the people, unless they were immeditaley incompacited, had an "out" but perhaps didn't/couldn't take it... i'm guessing mostly due to alcohol/bravado? I base this on my own general observations of urban life.

Roper

pearsquasher wrote:

..exactly!... which is why i'm wondering does anyone TRAIN to combat these auto-responses. I mean we all train to attack more efficiently, overcoming stress and lack-of-time. Why not train to escape more efficiently, overcoming these things too? Which is better?

I think once the confrontation is on, attack is escape. There's no choice. Say's me having only been in about two confrontations in the STREET since college! I would never claim to be an expert in such matters, nor, I think, can many people who've been in a thousand streetfights. (If they're such experts at de-escalation, how do they have so many fights under their belt?

I think the time you'd free up to train in these auto responses would be better served doing some extra fighting work, or maybe sprints and weights;)

pearsquasher

Anyway... it was just a thought I had given some of the training I've been doing recently. Its not something overtly part of any curriculum i'm studying but more like a natural aspect of the art built into it but without being a stated goal .... it's there as much as learning to attack is, in fact. Again these things are not expressly thought but just something i picked up on the last while and was curious to see was it found elsewhere.

Millionaire

from a man in the street ( i am not cop nor in security)

if the attack starts, finish the job, finish fast, as soon as he is down, get the hell out of there and fast , and far way.

hate to do it, but at that stage, finish and be gone.

Ballisong

Yeah most of the stuff that i do at work is to stop fights from ever happening, thats what i'm paid the big bucks to do:rolleyes:. About 80% of people are very resonable if your fair with them and are never any hassle, but the other 20% don't care how polite or profesinal you are will start a fight no matter what you do.

The fights that i witness that i can't get involved in, for legal reasons, are either drunken brawls where the two combatants are to intoxicated to do each other any real damage and it's only when they inevitably fall to the ground that a bystander throws in a sly dig that any harm is actually done, usually both parties are dragged away by friends shouting insults at each other, this type of fight is when people have a clean way out but are too stupid and too arrogant to take it.

The other type of fight that i witness and is becoming more common and have yet to witness someone getting an oppurtunity to get out is two or more on one, these fights are far more dangerous as the group have lot more confidence in themselves and don't tend to hold back as much as a one on one fight, and a lot of damage is done by the time any help can arrive, even if it's a very quick responce by us if it's in the club or the Gardi if it's on the street. I have seen guy's hit with pint glasses, bottles, lumps of timber, kicked in the head while on the ground and pushed through a window. This is the kind of aggression that is becoming common in street confrontations and it is this type of aggression that we have to deal with working on the door.

By the way as nightclubs go our venue is not rough compared to most, but i still witness these events every week.

pearsquasher

Just out of curiosity Balisong, are these gang fights due to drink, drugs, rivalry, random attacks, crime-orientated, grudges or what?

A friend told me that as a member of a university martial arts club he was asked by lots of people about training "against multiples" so it seems to be a very real perceived threat these days or defintely on the increase as you say.

Dave Joyce

Interesting thread and some very interesting responces. Just want to add my two cents worth. I think I understand where you are coming from pearquasher, but if you are already in a fight and are looking for an "out", then my opinion would be that its a fight that one could have avoided. I have actually found the complete opposite when teaching self protection courses, that normal reasonable people find it difficult to deal with extreme violence and would hesitate at ending a violent confrontation. (Just to clarify we explain at the beginning of all of our courses that the situations we prepare people for are at the extreme edge which may be a rareity, but if you're prepared for the worst its a lot easier to deal with lesser situations). As Millionaire said earlier, Geoff Thompsons work is probley one of the best out there and he has often said that hesitation (whether for moral, legal, hes got friends/a weapon whatever) because of possible consequences of your actions can actually lead to you been severely injured or worse. Therefore avoid confrontation at all costs but if you have to act fight hard unfair and dirty and get the hell outta there.
I think this has also brought up people reacting with their emotional mind instead of their logical mind

Ballisong

To be honest pearsquasher, most of them tend to start over stupid reasons i.e. looking at someone wrong or spilling someones drink, but because of the number of people that become involved it gets violent very quick and very out of control and of course these can be drink and drug enduced.

Sometimes it can be gang related (two groups of people from different areas that have a grudge)

I don't see to many random attacks while I'm working, most of my friends who have been attacked like this, said it happened when they were walking alone somewhere in a very quiet area. Fortunatley this hasn't happened to me since i was in my teens, but when it did i was always on my on with no one else around.

Michael O Leary

I attended a seminar with Dave Joyce about 9 years ago in Dublin and the one thing which remained with me and which I emphasise to my Wing Tsun students is his above view. Namely that whenever you are obliged to fight, as soon as you start to think about the other persons welfare, legal consequences etc, you are placing yourself in a vunerable position.

Despite the differences in techniques, what Wing Tsun has in common which Krav Maga, Escrima, Thai Boxing, etc is that we aim to finish the (street) fight as quickly as possible using whatever means using all manner of strikes with fists, open palms, elbows, knees, legs etc.

In common with the above named Geoff Thompson we feel that the best way to control a fight is to make the other person unconcious and that best way to do that is to strike them repeatedly in the head.

Michael O Leary

We believe in training for the worst case scenario and then working backwards.

Millionaire

Just Re Scenario training role playing etc ,some said earlier they doubt this would get the adreline dump going...

Serious is role playing is done properly, with full on verbals, and a threat of a sucker punching coming from your attacker in the scenario, hell yes, you get the adreline dump, the tunnel vision, the panic..I get it when I take my turn at bring the victim. I usual counter well, (say attacker has to start to throw punches Full contact before you defend.. and attacker has 8oz gloves on for safety) ,, yes these sort of drills are well worth doing.

I think for street training they are a must.