A Friend Losing Faith

R0ot

Anyone who was watching the news the last week will have seen something to do with the terrible road accidents that happened the last weekend up in donegal around the buncrana area where 5 young people died. I live in that area and have a few friends, and their families, who were affected by these accidents. One of my friends has, before this, been having her doubts about her faith in God since the New Orleans Tragedy and i think that this has just tipped her over the edge. She said to me tonight " I cant understand how u still believe in him, after last weekend, rippin 5 children from their parents arm. Wheres gods holy justice in that???!?" After she said this she went offline and i couldn't reply to her although even if i could have i honestly have no idea what to say to her. She was one of my examples that encouraged me back into faith in god and now that shes basicly renounced her faith i have no clue what to do. Can anyone give me any advice what i can say to her to even comfort her.

CathyMoran

My family have not had the easiest of years and the past 5 years have not been the easiest for me. It would be easy to loose faith but in the end for me the thing that kept me going was that I felt that God gave me strength and putting my trust in a higher being was very comforting. I know that these recent tragedies have been terrible but I do not believe that God had anything to do with them, I also believe that God is looking after those who are grieving and those who have died. Maybe your friend could pray to God for strength?

cecilwinthorpe

you should pray for her

R0ot

cecilwinthorpe wrote:

you should pray for her

I am believe me i am

hairyheretic

I think this can be something of a natural response after some great loss of life ... the question of why a good and loving god would permit such things?

Do you (or she) believe in fate or predestination, where everything is laid out according to some plan? If so, then you would have to accept that this is according to that plan.

Would your friend accept the arguement that those dead have gone to their afterlife, and are now with their god, and free from the pains of this reality?

If she is going through a crisis of faith though, ultimately its not going to matter what anyone else tells her. She is going to have to figure things out for herself, one way or another.

Have you tried calling and letting her talk? Sometimes people just need that .. not to be told anything, but simply to have someone there to listen to what they need to say.

Asiaprod

Very cool answer hairyheretic, very cool indeed.

hairyheretic

I've been where she is now, so I know something of how she feels. I went through my own crisis of faith before I broke with catholicism. I had prayed for help in 3 very important (to me) matters, and each had drastically worsened after I did.

When I spoke of how I felt I had plenty of talking at me, but no listening to me, and was told a variety of stuff ranging from "god is testing you" to "it doesn't matter how you feel, shut up and keep going to mass" (I'm paraphrasing obviously).

It came down to me to figure out what I wanted, and where I needed to go. I eventually found my way to asatru, and this is where I belong.

This girl will either come through her crisis keeping the faith she has (possibly weakened, possibly strengthened) or she will find another path.

Anyone can offer advice to her, but in the end, she has to make the decision, since she has to live it.

Having someone to listen to what she needs to say may well help her get her head in order. I hope she does find her way to what is the right place for her.

Asiaprod

Very nice account of a real world example. I think you have summed it up really well. At the end of the day, we all want sombody to just listen to us, the choice in the end will only be made by ourselves.

SparrowHawk

mabe your friend is right

Asiaprod

SparrowHawk wrote:

mabe your friend is right

Then again, maybe she`s not.

SparrowHawk

Perhaps, she's not.

But really, the most important thing is if R0otsfriend is happy, & if she can come to terms with this "godless world".

Most of the above replies seem to imply that she's losing something - I would take a different view, & suggest that she's gaining the strength to stand on her own.

Just a thought.

There was a guy on the Pat Kenny show during the week - I can't remember his name, but he said this:

Good people do good things,
Bad people do bad things,
But for good people to do bad things, takes religion

I'd happen to agree with him - but perhaps it's off topic?

hairyheretic

What she is going through is a period of change. Its likely going to involve a lot of introspection, and figuring of what she needs to in order to be happy.

It may be the same faith she has now.

It may be a different spiritual belief.

It may be a decision to turn from any and all spirituality.

As for "But for good people to do bad things, takes religion", I'd have to disagree. What it takes is a reason. That reason may be religion. It may be politics. It may be personal oppinion, or just about anything else.

There's been plenty of good and bad done in the name of most of the worlds religions over the centuries. Same with political ideologies, personal views and the other reasons that people have for doing what they choose to do.

robindch

> if she can come to terms with this "godless world".

Many people do eventually learn accept the world as it is, not as they'd like it to be, but then again, many don't, and end up going through life surrounded by a conceptual mental fog which blocks their view of the obstacles and paths which surround them. Isn't it interesting to think about what the world could be like if its religious fog-makers could be turned off for a few generations, just to give humanity a chance to get up from its knees and unbow its head? (*)

> As for "But for good people to do bad things, takes religion", I'd
> have to disagree. What it takes is a reason. That reason may
> be religion [...] or just about anything else.

Yes, you're quite right, but in general, the reason, or the justification perhaps, is almost invariably provided by an exclusivist ideology of some kind, usually one which declares itself inerrant, or as close as makes no difference. Religion just happens to be the largest provider of these inerrant justifications, though its usual bedfellow, political action, has been doing some catching up of late.

(*) - skeptics can do poetry, after a kind, too

Excelsior

A little birdie told me that doubt was an essential part of life- only by questioning again can we be sure we haven't lost the plot. If you do encourage your friend, encourage her to be honest and serious (in the dedicating time to it sense, not in the sombre don't make jokes about it sense) about her doubts.

The answers are there. C.S. Lewis has an amazing book called The Problem of Pain which you could buy her as a gift which walks her through a lot of these issues. They are not new, remember. Any Christian of sufficient maturity has dealt with all the issues you talk about. They may not have resolved them but in wrestling with the problem, you can often find that it is of such importance that "getting it right" is impossible but struggling with it brings its own kind of satisfaction.

I guess we could reference Jacob wrestling with the angel and the change that had over him but well.... you can read that yourself.

U$ername

Its her faith, she can lose it and only she can get it back. Just keep her away from organised religions as they only upset matters.

Believer

After you have listened, remind your Christian friend that this life is not the Big Picture. This is just the training ground. We have all eternity to live a perfect life. Hopefully your friend will learn some important things through her suffering that will help her to be a better person.
Love is for sharing.

UU

Hi!:rolleyes:
Well, I think everyone has covered everything I might say. Although, I could tell you to be there for her R0ot when she needs support the most or perhaps I could say that she needs some spiritual healing, somewhere she can question things, express how she really feels.

I could also say that perhaps she ought to consider questioning her faith - to maybe try to believe that the Spiritual Force(which is the name I use for God) exists but has no influence in destiny, if things happen they happen for a reason which is bad in this case although only she can decide what she really believes in.

I could maybe tell you not to try and influence or force her to re-believe but do discuss it with her and help her to see the beautiful things in life and not to take the burden of other problems too much as it will prevent her from going on in life. Here is a paragraph from a superb speech "What Is Unitarianism?" the minister in the Unitarian Church I attend spoke one Sunday and it changed the way I thought about life and faith.

Rev. Bill Darlison wrote:

So, we are on the threshold of something new, but one thing at least unites us with those who came before us. Unitarians throughout the ages have been people who have never been afraid to ask the question 'Why?' We ask the big 'why' questions - Why does the world exist? Why do I exist? Questions which we can never answer definitely, but which we keep on asking because it is human to ask them. And then there are those 'why' questions about which we can come to firmer conclusions - Why are people starving in a world of plenty? Why are people unhappy even though they are healthy and prosperous? And our aim, in so far as we have one aim, is not to convert people to any particular religious dogma, but, in the words of Helvecio Mendes,

'to wake up in the morning and hear everybody shouting Why? Why? Why?'

......because until everybody does, the world will continue to be a very precarious place.

I have met people who gave up their religion but not their faith. If she no longer believes in Christianity, then respect her decision but if gives up her faith she has lost a part of herself - her spirituality which everyone has and it really makes us humans. From my observations I have found those who gave up religion but not faith, became quite humanist and it has worked for many. Good luck to your friend and yourself!;)

Daniel:)

wolfsbane

ROot,

It is a painful experience to meet suffering and death face to face. Whether that comes personally or by reflecting on the distress of others, it is a big wake-up call to our soul. The Problem of Evil and the practical outworkings of it is one of the biggest tests to belief in the God of the Bible I can think of. The more tender-hearted the person ( and that is one mark of the true Christian), the sharper this arrow of doubt.

Many things can be said, but the bottom line is this: we either believe the testimony of Scripture in whole or not at all. If we do - as all true Christians must - then we accept its verdict concerning suffering and death: that Adam's fall into sin at the beginning brought all these terrible consequences on every generation and individual.

What specific aspects of these that come to any individual are determined by God. Some folk suffer as punishment for their sins; others suffer as children under the discipline of their Heavenly Father, to make them holier. The Book of Job provides a great example of the latter. The Bible as a whole is full of examples of the former. But our Lord's words about several incidents in His day remind us we are all subject to judgement:
Luke 13:1 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

Jeremiah sums it up well for us in his lamentations:
Lamentations 3:37 Who is he who speaks and it comes to pass,
When the Lord has not commanded it?
38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
That woe and well-being proceed?
39 Why should a living man complain,
A man for the punishment of his sins?

Tragic deaths should remind us of the uncertainty of life and the certainty of the Judgement to come.

Hairyheretic is right: Predestination is a comforting doctrine - to know that no evil can touch us except what God in His good purposes permits. This is the testimony of Scripture. Our hearts may be sore, but we can trust Him to know best who spared not His own son but sent Him to bear the punishment for all who trust in Him.