Quality of Poker on television

Hectorjelly

Ok so Ive been watching the world series having got my cousin to send me the episodes so far. And from what I can see the quality of the play is brutal. I havent seen many howlers from big namesv (except TJ), but Ive seen tonnes from players I dont recognise. Two of the winners of the Circuit events (both looked oriental) played some of the worst poker Ive ever seen. One of them reraised (but not enough to get people to fold) a whole table of people who had called an utg raise out of position with JQs and then fired off all his chips on three streets with one pair.

Today I watched this hand, played by Barry Greensteins son. He is in relatively good chip position before the hand. He raises in ep with AJo. Ok good so far. Then he gets reraised, by a player in position. So hes holding AJo and is rasied by someone who covers him, has position, and doesnt seem to be getting out of line. So he folds right? No he calls. The flop is three low rags. He checks, other guy bets. Right so folding here is optimal, raising might get AK AQ a bluff to fold, so thats second. Whats the worst move here, calling. So what does he do? He calls. Nice one

Turn is an ace. Hurrah, he has top pair ok kicker. Now at this point one person is miles ahead, there are no draws. If the other player has KK or QQ he in unlikely to want to put more chips into the pot. So shall we keep the pot small? No we will check raise all in with a hand that is almost certain to be beaten if called. And thats what he did. AK called unsurprisingly.

This is a hand that I saw TJ Cloutier play. The chip leader is playing SUPER tight. The commentators say he hasnt played a hand in ages. He raised utg with 99, which based on what I saw is probably among the weaker of his range. TJ cloutier has AQo. Now a very tight chip leader raised utg, and you have AQ. So you chuck it right? There is almost no way utg has AJ. No you reraise and end up all in on a ragged flop. Fantastic.

Lastly this is from another tournament, the BB just took a bad beat and is very shorstacked. I think he has 20k left with a bb of 10k. TJ raised utg with T8s! So knowing he will get called he raised into an entire field of players with a hand that run hot or cold is barely above average. This is awfull play, certainly - EV.

There has been many such hands that Ive seen so far (and I havent even got to the main event yet). Why is the play so bad? What is wrong with humans that they cant play a simple game well despite years of experience?

Lafortezza

Maybe the TV people are only showing the big hands, where people made amazing plays, or amazingly dumb plays. The hand you described above probably happened x number of times throughout the entire tournament, and mostly Mr AJo folded to the PF raise, check-folded the flop or check-called to the river.
But this time he stuck all his chips in with a very marginal hand, call the TV editors and tell them to stick it in the show!

Hectorjelly

Yeah its true that bad calls are going to make better TV than good folds, but it still doesnt explain the general level of bad play. I accept that some hands will look very strange because they are effectively shown without context, ie you dont get to see the hands leading up to it, but many of the hands are just played with no tactical awareness at all.

NickyOD

Don't tap the aquarium Hector. From watching poker on TV over the years I have always said that there are so so many "professional" tournament players out there who are just donks pure and simple. They have either been extremely lucky to cash in these tournaments (check out Tuan Le's play with 58o in last years WPT final) or have a serious bankroll obtained from other ventures and ultimately don't really make money from the big tournamets but still managed to get their faces on TV a lot because they are interesting characters that make good TV. Even Johnny Chan makes me cringe with the way he overplays Ace-Rag sometimes. I don't know how he does it. I've constantly found myself screaming at these players. "HAVE YOU NOT EVEN CONSIDERED WHAT HE HAS RAISED WITH!!!!!????" There's hope for all of us.

Amaru

Hectorjelly wrote:

Two of the winners of the Circuit events (both looked oriental)

I believe they're using the word "asian" now....

Daithio

You also have to take into account the pressure of playing on tv and also the fact that it is the end of a major two day slog and the players are absolutely knackerered. TJ Cloutier has no excuse with his experience, but for younger players who haven't made it there before or don't have that much experience it is totally normal for them to make a few mistakes.

NickyOD

Daithio wrote:

You also have to take into account the pressure of playing on tv and also the fact that it is the end of a major two day slog and the players are absolutely knackerered. TJ Cloutier has no excuse with his experience, but for younger players who haven't made it there before or don't have that much experience it is totally normal for them to make a few mistakes.

I'm not so sure. I mean postflop in a showdown or somthing I can understand making a bad call/play under pressure, but preflop there is no excuse for certain players to make the calls they make with bad hands. I think its more down to poor judgement. Preflop my range of opening hands and the hands I'll call reraises with isn't really going to change.

ocallagh

NickyOD wrote:

Preflop my range of opening hands and the hands I'll call reraises with isn't really going to change.

In Poker, especially NL Holdem you must mix your game up including your opening hands. You have mentioned yourself in previous posts where you have pushed with marginal hands pre-flop when you sensed weakness.. Or what about defending your BB against a button steal.. not easy to do in those big tournaments with cameras etc.. I don't think there is a magic formula for your range of opening hands

I do agree though, the quality of live poker is on the decline, although maybe we're all just getting a bit better at spotting the mistakes!

Dub13

ocallagh wrote:

I do agree though, the quality of live poker is on the decline, although maybe we're all just getting a bit better at spotting the mistakes!

I think this is the so called nail on the head.

NickyOD

ocallagh wrote:

In Poker, especially NL Holdem you must mix your game up including your opening hands. You have mentioned yourself in previous posts where you have pushed with marginal hands pre-flop when you sensed weakness.. Or what about defending your BB against a button steal.. not easy to do in those big tournaments with cameras etc.. I don't think there is a magic formula for your range of opening hands

I do agree though, the quality of live poker is on the decline, although maybe we're all just getting a bit better at spotting the mistakes!

making a move or pushing with garbage when you're shrtstacked is fine. But I'm talking about the kind of plays Hector mentioned, like calling a reraise out of position with AJo. Hardly anyone here would do it, even on TV, or am I giving people too much credit? :rolleyes:

I think the fact that so many players get into big tournaments now via satelites also has a lot to do with it. That and sponsorship. If people haven't paid out of their back pocket to play and they're on TV I guess they are more inclined to try and be a suckout master.

Amaru

Hardly anyone here would do it, even on TV, or am I giving people too much credit?

I remember commenting back months ago about the televised play at the final table of some big tournament here, i think it was the Paddy Power Open, was appalling, and several people agreed. The chip leader (Alan Betson?) kept making bad decision after bad decision, and the deck kept hitting him in the face. It wasn't until it got to headsup that he finally blew an enormous chip lead and came second to Rory Falconer.

I think its easy to criticise bad decisions when you're watching, but when was the last time any of us played a perfect tournament, or made one simple mistake that cost us our entire tournament?

Nalced_irl

Amaru wrote:

and came second to Rory Falconer.

John Falconer i believe

Worst call of all time has to be Tony G calling an all in for half his stack in the EPT in London i think with 22 with about 4 remaining in the tourney. He ended up winning it but that guy will play anything!

NickyOD

Amaru wrote:

I think its easy to criticise bad decisions when you're watching, but when was the last time any of us played a perfect tournament, or made one simple mistake that cost us our entire tournament?

I play a perfect tournament every week. :rolleyes:

NickyOD

Nalced_irl wrote:

John Falconer i believe

Worst call of all time has to be Tony G calling an all in for half his stack in the EPT in London i think with 22 with about 4 remaining in the tourney. He ended up winning it but that guy will play anything!

I think Tuan Le's play with 58o in the WPT this yers is my favourite donk play of all time. He raises and calles a reraise. Flops an inside straight draw and calls an all in from his oponent who had AQ. "Do you have a pair?" "No 8 high!" He won the hand.