What if Eircom dont come to their sense??

DeVore

Suppose Eircom "just say no" to the ODTR. What then?

Lets pretend for a moment that all niceties are gone. Noone's talking to each other and Eircom are refusing to implement anything.

What sort of power does the ODTR or the Government have to force their will over the telecomms infrastructure the taxpayers paid for?

and PLEASE no armchair experts. If you state fact, please please state your source. (I'm losing patience with the number of threads being taken off topic on this board).

DeVore.

E-Hub

That a big Questions, over several things,
You see its like a ripple effect that usually starts with friaco, once that’s on, suddenly ADSL is a very interesting thing that the likes of eircon can make money out of, bitstream llu follows and then eventually full llu(keep in mind full llu with never be that wide spread)

yellum

Derek Kickham from Esatclear mentioned two penalties if Eircom doesn't play ball. One was a very small fine and the other was the license being revoked. The ODTR need more options than that. Time to lobby the government.

E-Hub

Don’t know if they still do, but about 6 months ago, eircon was taking advantage of bitstream access I the north and providing an adsl service in Belfast, does anybody know at what price and weather or not it had a cap, we could use this in our defence when you start to hassle eircon.

chernobyl

Eircom can be as insulting to say "no" and that is that.
the penalties are insignificant as Eircom make so much money from refusing to follow the ODTR.
the fines are not big or frequent enough.

im telling you guys, Eircom will gives us FRIACO when they want to, and if they dont wanna...

NeilF

Originally posted by yellum
the other was the license being revoked

How would this work with Eircom? As they now own the lines would revoking their license not mean they couldn't function at all as a business That seems daft so what would loss of license mean to Eircom. Would the infrastructure revert to state ownership, or be transferred to the next best telco or what?

Delphi91

Originally posted by DeVore
Suppose Eircom "just say no" to the ODTR. What then?

..What sort of power does the ODTR or the Government have to force their will over the telecomms infrastructure the taxpayers paid for?...DeVore.

This is a point I've mentioned on a number of threads.

From Eircoms behaviour in recent months and especially their farcical ADSL prices this week, it's obvious that they are quite content to remain in the dominant position in the market.

They must be really enjoying this, laughing their asses off at the rest of us.

If there is a fine system in operation as some people suggest, then what's the betting that it is so punitive that it's pocket change to Eircom?

It seems that the ODTR have almost zero power to make Eircom play ball.

Having talked to Eircom engineers lately, it's obvious that they don't see ADSL taking off. Eircom themselves don't seem to want it to take off, or if they do, they want to control it 100%. And un-metered access seems a non-entity.

I have to say that the future don't look too bright at the moment.

Bard

I'd say it's the of the areas we should be pushing the Government further on - as a campaign issue - (of if we're already doing so, we should be doing it even more) - insisting that they should give the ODTR more power to properly regulate the telecommunications industry - give them bigger 'teeth' as such.

It would be interesting then to see if and how eircom avoid being "bitten".

infomat

It would appear that Eircom have decided to ignore the Regulator and go ahead with their ADSL launch as planned for the 2nd of next month.

Straker

I would hope the Government intervenes, either:

a) the ODTR is given "teeth" to enforce it's decisions.

or

b) splits €ircon in two. A services company, (Esat/NTL, etc) and an autonomous(?) company responsible for the physical network.

or

c) buys back the "local loops", and runs a semi-state body for line installation, maintenance, hardware, etc. (... tax payers cash down the drain)

Lemming

Originally posted by Straker

b) splits €ircon in two. A services company, (Esat/NTL, etc) and an autonomous(?) company responsible for the physical network.

Not a bad idea. Only problem would be collusion (if that's wrongly spelt .. my apologies ) between the 2 companies over other companies. Or favourtism frmo either towards the other over everyone else.

That said, it does really look like Eircom is going to do what it wants even when its being told by the regulations body otherwise. A shocking display (not to mention very eloquent proof) of Eircom as a monopoly and why that position should be torn down.

DeVore

Much as I hate to disturb you armchair experts.

Can someone who actually KNOWS (and no e-hub that DOESNT include you're ramblings.) answer this question.

I want to know 2 things.

1. What powers the ODTR and the Government have right now, today to do anything about the situation if Eircom simply or effectively says "No"

2. Your source for this information.


If you cant answer question 1 AND question 2 please kindly sit down and shut the **** up.

DeV.

vinnyfitz

The only power the Government has is to enforce competition. We the people may have owned the infrastructure once but we do not anymore.

The ODTR's powers are currently being revised through legislation currently being prepared in the Department of Public Enterprise. Did Eamonn Molloy in the Dept give the committee any information about how strong the new enforcement powers for the regulator would be when Irelandoffline met him in July? Did O'Rourke say anything about increased powers when she spoke at the August seminar?

This legislation has to be the focus of our lobbying government.

DeVore

Thanks, do you have any sources for that information?


<rantish> information without source on the internet is pretty useless as we dont know each other and so we require a common trusted-source for the "fact" to be anything more then "some bloke on da net told me so". </rantish>

Please ignore the above rant in any reply and stay on topic with this thread, I'm merely pointing out that I cant really take information without source as anything other then a personal opinion which is why every decent journolist quotes their sources....

DeV.

vinnyfitz

Check out this statement on the Dept Public Enterprise website


Communications Bill 2000

To the best of my knowledge this legislation - pre anounced 12 months - ago has not been published not to mention enacted! It was supposed to give adequate powers to the regulator in terms of much larger fine ceilings and to do all sorts of other things.

Kix

DeV,

Independently of this thread, I dug a little bit deeper. You can read it here. In terms of penalties it relates to the proposed Communications (Regulations) Bill, rather than the existing legislation. I wasn't able to sustansiate the oft mentioned fine on my trawls but it can be hard tracking dowm amendment after amendment.

In terms of licences, the second link in the post discusses the current situation. As far as I understand it, the Regulator can alter or suspend licences at her own discression.

K

Alis

Didn't even have time to read this but it is about the EU and BT. Maybe the EU could take action against Eircom?

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2095517,00.html

Dangger

Excellent find Alis! I am seriosuly tempted to read the 100 page .pdf titled

"DEALING WITH THE COMMISSION
notifications, complaints, inspections and
fact-finding powers under
Articles 85 and 86 of the EEC Treaty"

which I found on the Competition Directorate-General's (Mario Monti) site.


It states in the artlicle from your posted link that Mario Monti......"is unimpressed by the slow pace of LLU across the Union. The Commission is currently working on an enquiry into the issue, and Monti has warned that some incumbent telecoms companies are unfairly launching their own broadband services, while making it hard for other operators to launch rival services.

"In spite of an active supervision by national regulatory agencies, telecom incumbents are delaying as much as they can the delivery of unbundled lines, which is extremely slow, or proposing non-competitive access conditions and procedures," warned Monti in a speech to the UBS Warburg conference.

So I guess its a good starting place for investigating EU intervention! His site is at http://europa.eu.int/comm/dgs/competition/index_en.htm .

Could we as IrelandOffline act as a catalyst for such an investigation?

It states in the guide for complaints section 2.2 titled Complaining to the Commission:

"Complaints can be made to the Commission about alleged infringements of the competition rules by any "natural or legal persons who claim a legitimate interest" (Article 3(2) of Reg 17). The Commission interprets this broadly as any person who could plausibly claim to have suffered as the result of an infringement. This would include the parties to an agreement, third parties who
suffered from the effects of an agreement or an anti-competitive practice, as well as bodies representing such persons (eg. consumer groups). The only formal requirement for a valid
complaint is the disclosure of the identity of the complainant and the signature of the complainant or an authorised representative. In practice, however, a complaint should ideally contain as much
information as possible to assist the Commission"

Kix

Lets not forget that Erikki Liikanen, the EU Commissioner for the Information Society, already very publically rapped Ireland over the knuckles back in April over her slow pace of liberalisation in the communications industry here:

http://www.onbusiness.ie/2001/0419/telecoms.html

K

El_MUERkO

Could Ireland Offlines commitee get together and make a report to send to the two EU lads mentioned above? Maybe the government might get there arses in gear if they get some phone calls from MEP's.

Dangger

As vice chairman I think its something worth investigating, I will undertake to consult with the rest of the committee and get moving on this one. I will report back on the idea on the boards on a new thread.

How about we get a timeline of Eircoms statements and actions like the one Martin displayed at the seminar. We could fill in all the lies, promises and deadliens they gave and it would give a shocking picture of how they have lead the public and in some cases governement along blindly for so long?

o_donnel_abu

Originally posted by DeVore
Suppose Eircom "just say no" to the ODTR. What then?

IMO, the current battle between ODTR and Eircom could be a major watershed. Eircom have basically told ODTR to p*ss off - now we will see what real powers the ODTR has.

If the ODTR cannot handle Eircom on this or if Eircom just decide to abandon broadband then the government will have to face up to the consequences of this and start some real action (don't forget that the legislation relating to ODTR is up for review in the next Dail session).

This ties in with what we basically said after seminar ... Eircom are going to do nothing willingly and the only ones who can make any real difference are the politicians.

We are already working on this and hope to have something to report on soon

Martin Harran

sceptre

Originally posted by o_donnel_abu

If the ODTR cannot handle Eircom on this or if Eircom just decide to abandon broadband then the government will have to face up to the consequences of this and start some real action (don't forget that the legislation relating to ODTR is up for review in the next Dail session).

Strongly agree. Time for some action on the part of the government either way.

(edit) I'm assuming Derek Kickham hasn't phoned Etain Doyle yet to let her know that discussions on LLU have broken down, ho hum.

ando

I was going to start a new topic, but hearing what the moderators are saying, i better not

My question is:

Does the 3GB limit on Eircom's DSL include Upload as well as Download ?

neverhappen

Does the 3GB limit on Eircom's DSL include Upload as well as Download ?

As I understand it, it is "line activity" that is limited, so yes, downloads and uploads would both contribute towards your massive 3GB limit.

tHE vAGGABOND

ando - that's sooooooooooo off topic its not even funny :eek:

Dev - since Eircom will be a private company and a member of the Tony O'Reilly empire in a while, does that change things..

The government can give out and be angry with something it owns, but can it be angry and mean with a private company in the same way?

<random opinion>the silly telecom regulator does not have the bottle to take on eircom anyway IMHO, the odd press release is hardly going to leave the execs in eircom shakeing in their golden shoes!</random opinion>

Boston

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND
ando - that's sooooooooooo off topic its not even funny :eek:

Dev - since Eircom will be a private company and a member of the Tony O'Reilly empire in a while, does that change things..

Yes he will be forced to sell his part in chorus, think about it, chorus is meant to launch a dublin wide WLL service with a 10gb cap at the same speed and half the price with only 2p per mb.
also you can get your phone with them that saves you rental.

Chorus are bastards, but Eircom are in a leage of their own.