Insane Irish road numbering

Solair

I'm just curious as to the logic behind this decision.

Why is there no direct road between Dublin and Cork (our second city)

For some unknown reason the Cork road is a branch off the Limerick road!?

What were they smoking that day ? or did some Limerick TD get offended and interfere?

Also, I continiously notice strange things like Cork not being mentioned on road signs on various roads which feed directly into it. Trying to find Cork from the midlands was a total nightmare. There were loads of signs for Dublin and we even saw one for Belfast (in brackets) Yet Cork wasn't mentioned.

Also the wonderfully random way that some signs in some areas are placed ahead of junctions and in others they're placed at junctions.
Neither's particuarly superiour but a bit of consistancy might prevent people from having to reverse back up N-roads!

This kind of stuff is nuts and a TOTAL waste of money.

It's like the signs were all put up by locals who were 100% familiar with the area and are only decorative.

The quality of signage in the southern (Cork, Kerry, Waterford, Wexford etc) is FAR superiour and much more consistant.

The midlands' signage was a complete and utter joke.

mackerski

The numbering scheme, at least from 1 to 11, is consistent in a way it wouldn't be if you gave a route number to Dublin-Cork. Taking Dublin as your focus, consider all the radial primary routes going anticlockwise and starting to the north. This gives you:

1: To Belfast, no primary route branches to anywhere (not within the state anyway).

2: To Derry, no primary branches.

3: To Ballyshannon, no primary branches (though it terminates on another independent primary route)

4,5,6: This is where it gets interesting. The one road leaving Dublin feeds Sligo, Westport and Galway. Sligo, as the first one encountered as you think anticlockwise, gets the N4 route for the whole distance, the next most anticlockwise is Westport, so its branch becomes the N5, leaving N6 for Galway

7,8,9,10: Same process. Limerick is the next main destination, so it gets N7, Cork's branch is therefore the N8. That Waterford is the N9 would make perfect sense if it wasn't for the N10, which exists only as a pair of spurs off the N9 to feed Kilkenny. I can't explain this one, except to speculate that it was either typical Irish sloppiness or perhaps supposed to form the beginning of a long-distance route that would fit into the numbering scheme.

11: Next in line for Wexford.

What I would say is that there's no good reason that numbered routes should try to favour the most obvious journeys. Doing this can be at odds with having a sane numbering scheme. That mightn't seem such a big deal for the few national roads we have, but look at all those 3-digit R-routes, try keeping them under control with no guidelines. London to Glasgow will bring you on the M1, then the M6, which then changes to the A74, then the A74(M). Or you could have taken the M40 and M42 and possibly a bit of the M5, depending on which direction you choose. Oh, and maybe the M6 toll for a bit.

My point being that, as journey planning goes, it isn't a big imposition on a person driving to Cork to expect them to consult a map and make a mental note of N/M7 and N8 and Portlaoise as the turnoff point. If, OTOH, you ask a mate how to get to Cork and listen for long enough to get yourself onto the Naas Road then you shouldn't expect the signs to rescue you. Having said that, the turnoff for Cork is signed, and you would probably get by.

Dermot

Solair

The radial road numbers out of Dublin then would be the only bit that makes some kind of logical sense as the rest.

N8 still makes no sense though.

Surely N7 as far as the break to Cork or Limerick
then N71 and N72 would make a lot more sense

Rather than having N8, which would imply (if the radial stuff were to be followed) that N8 is a radial from Dublin south of the N7.

mackerski

Solair wrote:

N8 still makes no sense though.

Surely N7 as far as the break to Cork or Limerick
then N71 and N72 would make a lot more sense

Rather than having N8, which would imply (if the radial stuff were to be followed) that N8 is a radial from Dublin south of the N7.

The N8 could be seen as the Dublin-Cork route, but as far as Portlaoise, it follows the same route as the N7, with the lower number signed. As to ending the N7 in Portlaoise and introducing two new route numbers, I can't see the benefit. You couldn't call them N71 and N73 anyway, as route numbers about 50 are for National Secondary Routes.

The only compelling reason for ensuring a single route number all the way from Dublin to Cork would be to reassure the Corkonians of their importance, and I can't see that they need the encouragement. No, the big problem here is that the route numbers should have Cork as their hub...

Dermot

murphaph

Among british road afficionados indeed, the irish road numbering system is roundly applauded for it's simple logic. The British zonal system is also logical to an extent, but as Dermot points out, can make you take many apparently unconnected route numbers to reach your destination. Our system is simpler, you want a really bad example of road numbering-try our neighbours in Northern Ireland!

Our system, like most, assumes some geographical knowledge of the country (ie, a map for the unfamiliar).

Poor destination signage is a different matter and I'd broadly agree with the OP that it is quite often shocking compared to elsewhere, including Northern Ireland.

Maskhadov

The lack of road signage in this country is a national embarassement.

Victor

Buy a map.

I recommend the Michelin Road Map of Ireland.

Maskhadov

In germany if you said to a german that you were going to buy a map to travel from one side of the country to the other by car they would laugh at you and Im not joking.

mackerski

Maskhadov wrote:

In germany if you said to a german that you were going to buy a map to travel from one side of the country to the other by car they would laugh at you and Im not joking.

You mightn't be joking, but you are utterly mistaken. I can't think of any journeys of that distance that you would attempt without either knowing the route well already, consulting a map or using a navigation system. Some you might, like Munich to Berlin, but that's got a lot to do with the fact that it's a signposted destination from Munich - about the only one that's so far away. As a rule, you'll consider your route before setting out, if only because you often have a choice of routes.

Dermot

Yoda

Victor wrote:

Buy a map.

I recommend the Michelin Road Map of Ireland.

It sure doesn't have MY road designated on it. But I will rant about that in another thread.

Maskhadov

mackerski, im not mistaken. you just dont need a map. Just follow the signs and have a basic knowledge of the road network

mackerski

In a country the size of Germany, a basic knowledge of the road network, of the sort the average person has, will not get you from one end of the country to another with any degree of effectiveness unless you back it up with a map. You might get up to half-way across, say, from Munich to Frankfurt, but aven here you have a choice of routes and would probably want to think about it.

A route that you travel regularly, of course, in Germany just as in Ireland, probably won't need to be looked up. But you can't tell me that a bloke living in Dresden will instinctively know how to get to, say, Karlsruhe if he's never driven that way before.

Dermot

Maskhadov

Im just speaking from my own personal experience of travelling across Germany by car. We didnt need one.

murphaph

I've always needed a map to use the Autobahn network. There's so much of it-only the United States has more miles of divided highway than Germany and Germany is only the size of Montanna!

mackerski

Maskhadov wrote:

Im just speaking from my own personal experience of travelling across Germany by car. We didnt need one.

Fair enough - you were obviously lucky in your destinations. Crucially though, you were never laughed at by a German for having a map? Folks need to know whether to hide theirs...

Dermot

Maskhadov

I was laughed at. The german people we met said " wow, is there no road signs in Ireland or something, why would you need a map" if only they knew.

murphaph

How come Hugendubel sell maps then?

mackerski

murphaph wrote:

How come Hugendubel sell maps then?

It's for furtive Irish tourists who can't find the signs saying "Now leaving Wasserburg am Inn, Cuxhaven 885km, follow the B45834". Blind gits...

Dermot

spacetweek

Maskhadov wrote:

I was laughed at. The german people we met said " wow, is there no road signs in Ireland or something, why would you need a map" if only they knew.

I think you're overreacting. I would not attempt any road trip in any country without a map. I think the fact that the germans you met said those things says more about Germans than maps.

Victor

Yoda wrote:

It sure doesn't have MY road designated on it. But I will rant about that in another thread.

But the local village is, isn't it? And you know how to get to the local village, don't you?

Lennoxschips

Hmm, I use a map when travelling through Germany. There are no signs to Munich at the Dutch/German border.

mackerski

Lennoxschips wrote:

Hmm, I use a map when travelling through Germany. There are no signs to Munich at the Dutch/German border.

That's because of a Bavarian initiative to reduce the numbers of migrant Dutch clogging their Autobahnen and of Itchy-feet Prussians pushing up the property prices and ruining the language. And they would have got away with it too, if it wasn't for those pesky maps.

I'm assuming that Maskhadov got taken in by the propaganda programme.

Dermot

D'Peoples Voice

Solair wrote:

Why is there no direct road between Dublin and Cork (our second city)

If there are two good things about our road signage,
it's the radial design of our national primary routes 1-11(the N10 excluded),
and the concentric shape of the M50,N51,N52 and N55.

It's logical and easy to remember.
Knowing that numbers 1-11 go anti-clockwise from Dublin to a coastal town/city,(although many deny that the N3 goes as far as the Northwest coast, that is Ballyshannon, they believe it stops in Belturbet, Cavan because the road crosses into the UK after that town, before it crosses back into Ireland in Donegal), is logical.

Likewise the roads M50, N51, N52, N55, N56 are all loosely concentric roads going North to South(sometimes south west)

After that, there would appear to be no definite pattern to the roads, that is, it seems like they never review them to rename them if they can find a pattern that may make things easier for people. Just ask people who have driven in New York what they think of their grid system. (1st and 3rd street).

I suppose the N21,N22 & N25 out of Cork have a pattern, but not that much.
As regards the lack of signs, that perhaps can be put down to kids breaking them, prohibitive cost of updating them for Km's, and perhaps complains from weirdos about them looking awful from a visual point of view in our countryside.

Lennoxschips

Ireland has one of the worst sign theft problems in Europe. Irish pubs all over the world love them you see.

murphaph

Surely nobody'd steal the new aluminium signs, would they? Olde worlde cast iron I understand-but transfer printed aluminium, surely not

Victor

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

After that, there would appear to be no definite pattern to the roads, that is, it seems like they never review them to rename them if they can find a pattern that may make things easier for people. Just ask people who have driven in New York what they think of their grid system. (1st and 3rd street).

Actually there is a pattern - each new series starts in the north-east and operates anti-clockwise.

weehamster

This has to be one of the most pointless threads I've seen. And this all started because someone was pissed becasue Limerick came before Cork in the road numbering numbering.:rolleyes: