Should we (the public) pay triple ?

Mercy Katharine

producers of beverage containers pay Repak based on production and sales , the consumer pays a hidden tax to cover recycling the end of life product , and we the public pay to dispose of it - Eddie Hobbs missed that one

see also thread - deposit refund on beverage containers .

your views would be appreciated

MorningStar

How to you figure that is us paying triple?
Once the company pays
What hidden tax?
We pay for the waste left fdfrom the products we choose to buy.
I can only see us paying once and the company pays once.
even if you see that as paying twice maybe you see it like we are both paying half.

Mucco

Repak is a waste of time. Producers should have to handle their own waste, ie shops take back packaging etc. This will encourage them to reduce such waste. At the moment all they do is pay for Repak, and it's up to the consumer to recycle (note recycle, not reduce or reuse)

Mercy Katharine

European Commission heavily on our back over the recycling issue , recycling is not the recomended protocol , reusing , and reducing , in Ireland this is at a minium . Ireland has ben warned for the 3rd time about recovery of beverage containers , and what do we get - 10 new collection skips in dunlaoighre rathdown , that people have to drive miles to .
Morning star - either you are a politician or work for repak - because the real people of Ireland would never post an answer like you did .

or possibly for one of the drinks companies .

either way , i speak to householders every day and they see it differently to you , they are working class , south east region , what does your class / region have that makes you so different ? so better ?

Snowball

Mucco wrote:

Repak is a waste of time. Producers should have to handle their own waste, i.e. shops take back packaging etc. This will encourage them to reduce such waste. At the moment all they do is pay for Repak...

You should really look into it more closely

Repak makes companies recycle the waste they produce. Also entitles other companies and house holders to return waste packaging to the producers of that packaging. So if you buy a computer off DELL, they have to take back the boxes if you don’t want them.

Also Repak estimate that in 2004 an average of 47% of recyclable waste was recovered and recycled. That’s Paper, Glass, Metals, Plastic, Wood and Textiles.

Example, in 1999 114,000 Tonnes of waste was recycled and in 2004 over 478,000 was recycled. Now not saying that its all down to them but I believe that they are a mayor part of that. Especially in the commercial sector.
I worked in Building Administration when Repak came in and the company I worked for had 13 building in Ireland alone. We ensured that met the Repak targets and we actually did a lot better. Simple things like getting all staff to put paper in a separate bin and ensure it was recycled.

I mean, you were talking about them making companies pay Repak. And yes they do. in 2003 they collected around 15million. And they invested over 15million in other projects. Their main one was recycling centres for the likes of you and me.

Mucco wrote:

...and it's up to the consumer to recycle (note recycle, not reduce or reuse)

And it dam well should be. If you use a product that produces a certain amount of waste (example coke bottles?, bags of crisps, chocolate bars, plastic bags and so on) I think you should have to pay extra for that. Especially when in some cases there are alternatives that do not produce as much if any waste.

ellicro wrote:

European Commission heavily on our back over the recycling issue , recycling is not the recomended protocol , reusing , and reducing , in Ireland this is at a minium . Ireland has ben warned for the 3rd time about recovery of beverage containers , and what do we get - 10 new collection skips in dunlaoighre rathdown , that people have to drive miles to.

And yet the alternative is collections to peoples homes for specific waste and yet a huge amount of people are resisting waste charges. Money does not grow on trees and things cost. (although I do not want to get into the governments management of our money cause we all know it sux, the good thing about waste charges is that they are used for waste issues)

Mucco

Snowball wrote:

You should really look into it more closely

Repak makes companies recycle the waste they produce. Also entitles other companies and house holders to return waste packaging to the producers of that packaging. So if you buy a computer off DELL, they have to take back the boxes if you don’t want them.

You're right, I haven't looked at it that closely, but as you've said, Repak is focussing on the issue of recycling, not reducing or reusing.There's a sign in my local Tesco saying that because they're a member of Repak, they don't have to take back packaging waste. IE they pay their fee, and can then produce as much waste as they like without any consequence, it's up to me, the consumer, to recycle it.
A more preferable situation is where I can bring packaging waste back to them (or leave it there at time of purchase). This might force them to reduce packaging in the first place (for example, bananas don't need their own plastic bags)

And it dam well should be. If you use a product that produces a certain amount of waste (example coke bottles?, bags of crisps, chocolate bars, plastic bags and so on) I think you should have to pay extra for that. Especially when in some cases there are alternatives that do not produce as much if any waste.

I would be in favour of a compulsory deposit scheme.

Snowball

Mucco wrote:

Repak is focussing on the issue of recycling, not reducing or reusing.There's a sign in my local Tesco saying that because they're a member of Repak, they don't have to take back packaging waste. IE they pay their fee, and can then produce as much waste as they like without any consequence, it's up to me, the consumer, to recycle it.

Your right also. The issue of Reduce and Reuse should be a priority. But the problem is a single mindedness of our government officials. Europe say you need to recycle X% of your waste so Ireland rush to do that and nothing else. They don’t take into account the bigger picture. We have to stop producing as much crap as we do but when Money talks....
Like the Tesco thing. One of the problems is that for them it is more economical to pay the fines. Like the whole dumping of toxic waste into the seas. Its more economical to pay the fines then to actually take the point to heart and do something about solving the situation. It all boils down to the "Bottom line", the money. And as long as it is more economically viable to pay fines instead of getting up off their arses, well then nothing will change.

Hagar

MorningStar wrote:

How to you figure that is us paying triple?
Once the company pays
What hidden tax?
We pay for the waste left fdfrom the products we choose to buy.
I can only see us paying once and the company pays once.
even if you see that as paying twice maybe you see it like we are both paying half.

The company never actually pays for anything. It becomes a cost of production and is ultimately passed onto and paid for by the consumer. The consumer then pays the disposal cost again. The consumer always pays for everything. As for choice, try buying a kg of sugar without a bag, or a Fanta without a bottle/can. I wish you luck.

Snowball wrote:

So if you buy a computer off DELL, they have to take back the boxes if you don’t want them.

Interlink deliver DELL products to your door. There is no way they will wait for you to unpack the product and give them back the packaging. They just won't do it. Or are you going to drive to Limerick? Get real.

Anyway what about manufacturers expecting you to send back products in their original packaging for repair under guarantee? Work that one out WRT manufacturer taking back his packaging.

Snowball

Hagar wrote:

As for choice, try buying a kg of sugar without a bag, or a Fanta without a bottle/can. I wish you luck.

Try buying large bottles instead of 500ml bottles all the time. Its cheaper, much cheaper to by 2lr or a 4lr deal than to buy 4 or 8 500ml bottles yet more 500ml bottles get sold.
People choose what’s most convenient.
If Coke was sold 2 ways, one the normal 500ml bottle of coke and the other an very unattractive and plain, none see-through but recyclable container which worked out cheaper to buy which do you think would see more? My money is on the standard bottle.

Hagar wrote:

Interlink deliver DELL products to your door. There is no way they will wait for you to unpack the product and give them back the packaging. They just won't do it. Or are you going to drive to Limerick? Get real.

Anyway what about manufacturers expecting you to send back products in their original packaging for repair under guarantee? Work that one out WRT manufacturer taking back his packaging.

Get real? The realality is that if you want to make them, they can and have to take it back or pay a fine (such as Tesco do). How you get it back to them is your problem. As for not having the original packaging affecting your ability to return the product? Well, that is also the consumer’s problem.

But the reality is that with every purchase we make a choice. We are agreeing to the company’s ethos, standards in everything they do and funding more of the same. When you choose to by a product that is more convenient over one more ecologically sound then not only agreeing with the way that company does business but you are funding more of the same.
When a clothing company are exposed as making their cloths in sweat shops in the Middle East, they drop their prices and their sales go up, people are telling that company that although you are morally questionable, keep selling products at this price and I'll keep buying them, no matter what you do. Same going for ecologically minded stuff. When a company produces more packaging and people buy more, they are being told by the consumer that although there is a lot of noise out there about reduce and reuse, we'll bother when its the most convenient or cheapest thing to do.

Your money is your voice, speak wisley

Mercy Katharine

i think you have missed the point

every manafacturer that produces packaging pays repak for its recovery , if so - then why do we pay to dispose of it ?

shouldnt there be free collection and disposal of it ?

Snowball

ellicro wrote:

i think you have missed the point

every manafacturer that produces packaging pays repak for its recovery , if so - then why do we pay to dispose of it ?

shouldnt there be free collection and disposal of it ?

Not really, the manufacturer pays to try and discourage them from producing products, packaging and so on that produce as much waste. We pay because we use them and they need to be gotten rid of some how. Also there is an attempt to get us to stop using such products by hitting us in our pockets.
Although I am not saying that it is working, just that it’s what I believe is the reason for it.
The reason for the government levy on plastic bags was to educate the masses on other means of transporting their shopping home. Reuse and Reduce. People moaned about it at the start but I think, in regards to plastic bags, it is the single best and most far thinking thing our government could have done. I think more action like this needs to be taken.
Please don’t take it literal and assume that I am talking about putting levy’s on everything, on the contrary, I don’t thing that is the solution. But I do think that the core message that was delivered and the education the people received from the plastic bag levy was extremely important. I think more messages and methods of educating the people are needed. What they are? I have no idea. I would assume that every case is different and needs to be approached in different ways. But I think that plastic bag levy’s had a result and it’s a good start.

Hagar

Dear God, Is there nobody who understands the economics of production on this thread?

All and I do mean ALL , costs including packaging, are included in the cost of manufacturing a product. This is passed on to the purchaser. Every time. What part of that do you not understand? The customer pays for everything. How many times do you have to see that in writing before it sinks in? The customer pays for everything. Then he has to pay for the disposal that he has already paid for as part of the cost of manufacturing. The customer pays twice, every time.

Jesus Christ can we put an IQ test on this thread that weeds out the bewildered?

As for DELL you have no direct contact with them or anyone else you order from on the Net. How can they take back their packaging at point of sale. That is so obvious it's beyond me how you can't see it. What are you going to do? Send them the packaging back as an email attachment? Or use fossil fuel to drive to Limerick where they will tell you to fúck off with your stupid cardboard boxes.

I'm going for a walk for a few minutes, the smell of bullshyte and stupidity is stulltifying.

Snowball

lovely, you think ppl are not getting your point so you insult them. Cheers

I get your point, its in plain English. I think so does everyone else. Yes you pay twice. YOU PAY TWICE WHEN YOU BUY A PRODUCT THAT HAS A EXTRA CHARGE FOR PACKAGING, you pay when you buy it cause the manufacturer is f**ked if he is going to pay when your willing to. And you pay later also.
So let’s see if this sinks in. You pay when you buy a product that has an extra charge because of its packaging and you pay when the time for disposal comes. You pay those charges because you made a choice by buying a product like that. You pay at disposal because you choose to bin instead of reuse.

As for Dell, well they were an example. As for returning their product's packaging, their production centre is in Limerick and their call centre is in Bray. I have been led to believe that they do accept their boxes back in bray but as I have never tried I have no actual idea. You'd have to check for yourself.

I get your point but there is no need to react the way you are. Pettiness and insults are for the gaming board.

Hagar

Right so now you acknowledge the the customer is actually paying twice and the company isn't paying at all. Progress at last.

Now lets try the choice bit.

I do not have any control over the packaging the manufacturer uses. Do you agree with that?

I can only buy from another manufacturer. With me so far?

So now all I have to do is find a manufacturer who doesn't stick the PC, or whatever, in a plastic bag, encase it in styrofoam, give me a 100 page manual in 20 languages I can't speak when a 5 page one would do, then put it in a cardboard box emblazoned with their advertising* and then shrink-wrap it in more plastic. Since they all do this what choice does the cutomer have. Really where is the choice? Show me.

Apologies for any personal offence taken. None intended.

* a waste of ink, resources, time and effort as I have already bought the product

Snowball

Hagar wrote:

I do not have any control over the packaging the manufacturer uses. Do you agree with that?

Not even in the slightest

Hagar wrote:

I can only buy from another manufacturer. With me so far?

So now all I have to do is find a manufacturer who doesn't stick the PC, or whatever, in a plastic bag, encase it in styrofoam, give me a 100 page manual in 20 languages I can't speak when a 5 page one would do, then put it in a cardboard box emblazoned with their advertising* and then shrink-wrap it in more plastic. Since they all do this what choice does the customer have. Really where is the choice? Show me.

Look I am not saying that the choices you have are good, obtainable or even realistic. I am saying that the choices are there. You don’t have to buy that product that has "plastic bag, encase it in Styrofoam, give me a 100 page manual in 20 languages I can't speak when a 5 page one would do, then put it in a cardboard box emblazoned with their advertising* and then shrink-wrap it in more plastic" not do you have to bring all that at home. You could leave the packaging at the shop. As for the manuals? I don’t have all (not even close) the answers.
Just because you don’t like your choices don't mean that you don't have any.

Look we are arguing semantics. We both agree that the system does not work. But I believe in it's intentions. To try and get people to reduce and reuse and to stop being such consumers

Hagar wrote:

Apologies for any personal offence taken. None intended.

np m8

Hagar

Fair enough.

I just don't think it's right to browbeat the consumer, he is footing the bill for everything. Somebody much higher up the food chain should be trying to solve this in a realistic manner.

Cork

I think that many people are freeloaders and expect a clean environment by default.

Many towns are filthy.

The polluter should pay. If the price is too high - they'll find an alternative product.

Hagar

Well there not filthy where I live.

The council workers do their jobs if they don't someone else will. The bins are emptied every night. Yes, at night, every night, not causing traffic problems during the rush hour. The streets are continually swept clean. There are litter bins everywhere. The litter bins are emptied before they are filled to overflowing. Anything that can be recycled is collected and recycled. Delivery vans must unpack and take away all packaging regardless of where it comes from. The local dump takes all waste. There are seperate areas for appliances which are salvaged/whatever. There are no extra charges for any of this. It's part of my taxes. If the place isn't cleaned to my satisfaction I can complain to the local council office and something is done about it, promptly I might add. All the street lights work, all the traffic lights work, there are adequate raddsigns and decent roads.

Wallow in your own filth if you must.
The finger is already pointed at the people responsible. It's up your own arse pointing at you.
Get your finger out and do something.

You have probably guessed by now that I don't live in Ireland, I live in France.

Snowball

Hagar wrote:

Well there not filthy where I live.

The council workers do their jobs if they don't someone else will. The bins are emptied every night. Yes, at night, every night, not causing traffic problems during the rush hour. The streets are continually swept clean. There are litter bins everywhere. The litter bins are emptied before they are filled to overflowing. Anything that can be recycled is collected and recycled. Delivery vans must unpack and take away all packaging regardless of where it comes from. The local dump takes all waste. There are seperate areas for appliances which are salvaged/whatever. There are no extra charges for any of this. It's part of my taxes. If the place isn't cleaned to my satisfaction I can complain to the local council office and something is done about it, promptly I might add. All the street lights work, all the traffic lights work, there are adequate raddsigns and decent roads.

Wallow in your own filth if you must.
The finger is already pointed at the people responsible. It's up your own arse pointing at you.
Get your finger out and do something.

You have probably guessed by now that I don't live in Ireland, I live in France.

well we don’t live in France, we have the misfortune of living in Ireland.
I lived in Spain for 6 years and I have seen how a city with double the population of Ireland can be kept clean and tidy. How things get fixed (straight away) when they get broken. How services are not only there, but they actually work as they are supposed to and efficiently I might add.
But I don’t live in Spain anymore I live in Ireland.
But you don’t live in Ireland, you live in France. What on earth and you so pi**ed off about?? Your stuff works. Chill out man.

We are working on it, and we are taking our sweet time about it too. We are Irish and we have the luxury of being able to spend years if not decades moaning about a problem before actually doing something about it. Cause if not there is no way were would have put up with 800 years of bullsh!t.

Hagar

Snowball wrote:

But you don’t live in Ireland, you live in France. What on earth and you so pi**ed off about?? Your stuff works. Chill out man.

We are working on it, and we are taking our sweet time about it too.

I have every right to be pissed off. I lived in Ireland for 48 years and watched my taxes being squandered for year after year. At one stage I paid 60% income tax and what good did it do?

The absolute apathy of government after government and the mismanagement of a whole nation with no change in sight was a major factor in me leaving Ireland. I wanted my kids to grow up with a decent future. I would have hoped it could have been in Ireland but it is not to be.

Snowball

Hagar wrote:

I have every right to be pissed off. I lived in Ireland for 48 years and watched my taxes being squandered for year after year. At one stage I paid 60% income tax and what good did it do?

The absolute apathy of government after government and the mismanagement of a whole nation with no change in sight was a major factor in me leaving Ireland. I wanted my kids to grow up with a decent future. I would have hoped it could have been in Ireland but it is not to be.

I tottaly agree. There is a chance that I will move from Ireland to a place where things work like they are supposed to. Having lived in Madrid for 6 years I have seen that the grass is actually greener