BMW 323Ci

carrollf

Hi,

I am looking at a 2000 BMW 323Ci with 57000 miles on it but am wondering if anyone has any advice on anything that could be wrong with it (more so this particular model and year!).
In general, does anyone have a similar 323Ci and if so, what do you think of it?

unkel

As with buying any second hand BMW over here, I'd recommend you have the car checked out properly. PM kbannon who could recommend an expert to check the car out

Apart from that, it is important to verify the origin of the car. If it is an original Irish (Republic) car your chances are much better than if it is a UK import possibly having been fed dirty petrol causing engine damage. Google for BMW Nikasil

preilly79

check that the indicators work. they seem to be faulty on most every beemer i see

mackerski

I have a non-coupé version of the same car, but a year older. Mine has seen a little more road (just over 100,000km right now), but it's a fine car that has treated me well (and I it, I bought it new, so I wasn't subject to anyone elses abuse). At that age, there are a few niggles that arise, some of which have been costly for me - brake discs, some suspension bits, that kind of thing. I'd ask for details of any recent work, and getting it inspected to a level of detail that will spot imminent work requirements may be worthwhile.

I will echo preilly79 on the matter of minor electrical stuff - I had the OBC stalk -end button die on me and had a brief spell of odd inicator behaviour that seems to have resolved itself. It might sound small, but those stalk controls are not cheap. The sunroof controls, too, are temperamental - the controlling software seems to have some can't-get-there-from-here issues, such that you may, say, be unable to close the thing from the tilt setting without opening it fully first.

I'm still a happy owner, though, so just make sure to look this one in the mouth a bit and you may come away satisfied.

Dermot

unkel

preilly79 wrote:

check that the indicators work. they seem to be faulty on most every beemer i see

Yeah the indicators are important. They will be checked during any NCT test. I'm confident the OP will really appreciate your most constructive contribution

DukeDredd

mackerski wrote:

At that age, there are a few niggles that arise, some of which have been costly for me - brake discs, some suspension bits, that kind of thing. I'd ask for details of any recent work, and getting it inspected to a level of detail that will spot imminent work requirements may be worthwhile.

I will echo preilly79 on the matter of minor electrical stuff - I had the OBC stalk -end button die on me and had a brief spell of odd inicator behaviour that seems to have resolved itself. It might sound small, but those stalk controls are not cheap. The sunroof controls, too, are temperamental - the controlling software seems to have some can't-get-there-from-here issues, such that you may, say, be unable to close the thing from the tilt setting without opening it fully first.

I'm still a happy owner, though, so just make sure to look this one in the mouth a bit and you may come away satisfied.

Dermot

This is what i don't get about most BMW owners - they find the likes of what you just listed above acceptable!! Is it that you think faults like this in cars are the norm and to be expected or something...?

mackerski

DukeDredd wrote:

This is what i don't get about most BMW owners - they find the likes of what you just listed above acceptable!! Is it that you think faults like this in cars are the norm and to be expected or something...?

I don't find it acceptable. But the car drives very well and always has done. There are real issues with some of the newer electronics, and I'd be posing some serious questions about any future model I'd buy. I've never had a car that was perfect - in fact, I've had some real lemons - but my current one is, on balance, very good.

Dermot

carrollf

Thanks guys,

The dealer selling it is offering a 3 month/3000 mile warranty which seems quite short to me - is this the norm? I will only get cover for anything that goes wrong very quickly after I buy it - should I be worried about this?

If I was to get someone to check out the car for me, who should I ask? The AA?

mackerski

How current is the service record on the car? If, for instance, a main dealer gave it a recent comprehensive service, it should insulate you against a lot of the wear-and-tear based replacements I mentioned above.

Dermot

Seth Brundle

Full service history is a must - make sure you read through ti. BMW services go as follows:-
Oil service
Inspection I
Oil
Inspection II
Oil
Inspection I
etc.

Check all electrics for faults. There should be nothing that doesn't work. Check that aircon works.
I know there was some kind of issue with the rear subframe also - will investigate for you.

Bring a BMW Specialist with you. See www.bmwcarclubireland.com/contacts.php for some. Personally I can recommend Robert Harrison or Robert Furley. These guys will also do servicing for you.

Read through the FAQ on www.e46fanatics.com/faq/faqs.php

kdevitt

unkel wrote:

If it is an original Irish (Republic) car your chances are much better than if it is a UK import possibly having been fed dirty petrol causing engine damage. Google for BMW Nikasil

Nikasil was never an issue on E46 models - only on the previous model (E36). Rear subframe damage is an unfortunate and expensive problem with the E46 Coupes built between 99 and Feb 2000, so either make sure the warranty work was done on it or that its still in good condition - its an expensive job if you end up paying for it yourself.

carrollf

Cheers again guys,

I really appreciate your help here.

According to the dealer, the original service history is not with the car (it used to be a company car - should this be a concern??) but he has since had it fully serviced by a BMW dealer so hopefully, as you say, most wear and tear issues will be fixed! Apparently the brake discs were changed at this service also.

How much does a BMW Specialist charge on average to check the car out? What sort of notice do they need?

Regarding the sub-frame damage, what exactly is it and how can this be checked for?

Seth Brundle

carrollf wrote:

According to the dealer, the original service history is not with the car (it used to be a company car - should this be a concern??) but he has since had it fully serviced by a BMW dealer so hopefully, as you say, most wear and tear issues will be fixed! Apparently the brake discs were changed at this service also.

Find out the name of the dealer and check it out! Alternatively contact BMW Ireland and see if they can help you with its history.
I would strongly advise not taking it if there is no history! There are loads of these out there so you don't have to settle on this.

carrollf wrote:

How much does a BMW Specialist charge on average to check the car out? What sort of notice do they need?

Specialists vary obviously they can be less than half of the labour costs compared to a dealer. Ring them for more info.

carrollf wrote:

Regarding the sub-frame damage, what exactly is it and how can this be checked for?

There are a few threads on the BMW Club forum and also
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=157603
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=195602&highlight=subframe

Seth Brundle

Actually, if you can, come down to Mondello on Sunday morning and you can talk to E46 coupe owners (including one who had the rare misfortune of suffering from the rear subframe damage).
They will know more about E46 coupes than myself.

carrollf

I would strongly advise not taking it if there is no history! There are loads of these out there so you don't have to settle on this.

There don't seem to be many 323Ci's in Ireland for sale now! Loads of 318Ci but not much of anything else. I am looking in the wrong place? My ideal car would be a 2001 320Ci but can't find one!

Seth Brundle

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=search&CategoryID=1&MakeID=3&xMakeID=3&ColourID=&xColourID=&ModelID=20&xModelID=20&Doors=&BodyID=4232&Engine_Min=&Year_Min=2000&Engine_Max=&Year_Max=&Price_Min=&Price_Min_integer=Minimum+price+entered+was+not+an+integer.&CountyID=&xCountyID=&Price_Max=&Price_Max_integer=Maximum+price+entered+was+not+an+integer.&BusinessID=&xBusinessID=&IsPrivateSale=&FuelID=&SortBy=MakeAsc&MaxRows=100&InsertPeriod=&ResultFormat=&submit=Find+%3E%3E
[they also have 3 * 323Ci]

carrollf

Thanks

The 320 is as powerful as the 323 and I presume that the subframe issues do not exist in the newer 320Ci?? For me I think the 320Ci is the better option. More expensive however than the 00 323Ci I spotted - it was going for €21000 while the 320Ci is closer to €28000

mackerski

carrollf wrote:

The 320 is as powerful as the 323

No it isn't. At least, it wasn't in 1999, where the 320 was 2.0l (or close) and the 323 2.5l. I test-drove the 320 and was going to buy one, but made the last-minute decision to go for the extra oomph. (This was in Germany, the decider was that the insurance was no dearer). The 323 is noticably more powerful.

Dermot

carrollf

Thanks Dermot,
I mean the newer 320Ci 2.2L - it has 170bhp which I think is the same as the 323Ci ??

My real worry is the rear subframe issue - this sounds like a disaster if the 323Ci has damage here! Does this issue exist at all with 2001 model 320Ci's?

carrollf

Does anyone know if the NCT would pick up on the subframe issue?

kdevitt

carrollf wrote:

Thanks Dermot,
I mean the newer 320Ci 2.2L - it has 170bhp which I think is the same as the 323Ci ??

My real worry is the rear subframe issue - this sounds like a disaster if the 323Ci has damage here! Does this issue exist at all with 2001 model 320Ci's?

The problem was rectified in Feb 2000, so it won't be an issue on any 320ci. The 323ci is quite a bit more powerful than the 320ci though, most that I've seen dynoed have been 190BHP+, despite factory figures being similar to the 320ci. It should be a bit more torque-y too.

As far as I know, if the subframe is on its way out, it tears away from the boot floor - and you can see the fracture lines very clearly. Theres also alot of noise generated by the rear axle, which should be quite obvious, and the rear end will feel quite flaky, and nowhere near as steady as it should be. As Killian said, one of the guys on the BMW car club forum experienced it - I'd recommend registering over there where theres a bit more collective knowledge.

preilly79

unkel wrote:

Yeah the indicators are important. They will be checked during any NCT test. I'm confident the OP will really appreciate your most constructive contribution

lighten up

unkel

kdevitt wrote:

Nikasil was never an issue on E46 models - only on the previous model (E36).

Nope, you're wrong there. Although it's a very complex issue. The M52 engine in the E46 model we are talking about can have either Nikasil (alloy) or steel liners. The latter indeed do not suffer from the Nikasil issue

unkel

preilly79 wrote:

lighten up

Well I do drive a BMW, so you can't expect me to light up my indicators...

Any constructive contribution from you on this thread?

carrollf

Lets say I bring an expert with me to look at the car and he says it's fine, what are the chances of me experiencing the subframe issue in 6 months when the warranty runs out? It seems very risky and impossible to prevent! Apologies if i'm boring you with this issue but I was all set to buy this 323Ci until the subframe issue came up - now I'm very nervous!

kdevitt

carrollf wrote:

Lets say I bring an expert with me to look at the car and he says it's fine, what are the chances of me experiencing the subframe issue in 6 months when the warranty runs out? It seems very risky and impossible to prevent! Apologies if i'm boring you with this issue but I was all set to buy this 323Ci until the subframe issue came up - now I'm very nervous!

Check the build date, if its after Feb 2000 - it won't be affected. If its before then, you can buying a strengthening kit afaik.

@Unkel - the E46 6 cylinders only came with the M52TU engine, which is double VANOS. You're the first person I've ever heard to say E46's were affected? (Given that they stopped production of Nikasil blocks in March 98 which was before the E46 was launched) Where did you read this?

Seth Brundle

I have to say that Ken is correct on that one
See www.bmwcarclubforum.co.uk/nikasil.htm

Regarding the subframe - I don't believe that it should be a huge concern as very few cars suffered. However, get it looked by a specialist at and if it gets the all clear then hopefully it stays that way. Nobody can predict what happens in the future but as you will have bought a car with a full BMW service history* then you may get help from BMW Irl. As was said before, ask on a BMW forum where you will get loads of E46 Ci owners responding.

* as I said - don't buy without a fBMWsh. A car this young hadn't really a valid reason to go elsewhere. Contact the previous owner/BMW Irl about service history. If the gdealer won't help you with the previous owners details then run away.

carrollf

Thanks again guys, you've been really helpful.

I think i'll drop down to Mondello on Sunday - sounds like fun!

carrollf

Regarding the FBMWSH, the dealer says that when he got the car it used to be a company car and he didn't get the service history with it. However, he has since had it fully serviced by a BMW garage and he has all these details.

Is having the last service details enough? Would that service have spotted any other damage?

ds20prefecture

Walk away. The dealer is bullshitting you.

Being a company car does not preclude having a full service history. In fact, most company cars I have seen have exemplary histories - people are more inclined to make sure the car they drive is properly serviced if they don't have to pay for it directly.

The last service is the one you largely ignore when buying a car from a dealer, as it was probably done by them.

kdevitt

Sounds very dodgy alright. BMW dealers should store the service records for any cars serviced with them, if you can even get the name of the dealer you may be able to track down the previous service history, if any...

mackerski

Is it fair to observe that one of the better reasons to opt for a non-main dealer service is to save money[*]? I know that it's impossible to assess a pedigree when this happens, but it's surely not a guarnateed sign of dodginess.

Dermot

[*] ...and many people would be critical of the quality of main-dealer servicing...

Seth Brundle

mackerski wrote:

Is it fair to observe that one of the better reasons to opt for a non-main dealer service is to save money[*]? I know that it's impossible to assess a pedigree when this happens, but it's surely not a guarnateed sign of dodginess.

Dermot

[*] ...and many people would be critical of the quality of main-dealer servicing...

If this is the case on a car just 4 or 5 years old then I'd be very suspicious.
Get the reg number, call BMW Irl (01-8628200 IIRC) and get the history verified. Also ask if any recall or other unusual work was done.

ds20prefecture

mackerski wrote:

Is it fair to observe that one of the better reasons to opt for a non-main dealer service is to save money[*]? I know that it's impossible to assess a pedigree when this happens, but it's surely not a guarnateed sign of dodginess.

That is fair, but an absence of service history and the lame excuse that "it was a company car" certainly strikes me as dodgy.

kdevitt

mackerski wrote:

Is it fair to observe that one of the better reasons to opt for a non-main dealer service is to save money

Valid point , and I'd have no problem buying a BMW that had a non BMW service history, but the dodgy-ness in this case is the complete lack of service history up until the current owner...

Seth Brundle

Also remember that future buyers will also look for a full history which, if you buy this car (assuming BMW Irl are no help), will affect its resale value.

unkel

kbannon wrote:

I have to say that Ken is correct on that one
See www.bmwcarclubforum.co.uk/nikasil.htm

Thanks for the link

kdevitt wrote:

@Unkel - the E46 6 cylinders only came with the M52TU engine, which is double VANOS. You're the first person I've ever heard to say E46's were affected? (Given that they stopped production of Nikasil blocks in March 98 which was before the E46 was launched) Where did you read this?

I'm getting a bit confused now

Indeed the Nikasil wasn't produced any more after mid march 98 and the E46 was launched in april 98 (facts). I interpreted this that it is likely that some of the early sales in april would have had engines from before mid march

Or are you saying that because all E46 323/328s are double vanos (fact) that they don't have the Nikasil block? Or that the lower engine revs on the double vanos prevent the Nikasil issue from rearing it's ugly head?

kdevitt

The 323ci and 328ci both had the M52TU - these were replaced after two years by the 325ci and 330ci as you probably know, both of which had the M54 engine I think...

They stopped using Nikasil blocks completely (kept them in their motorbikes), although Porsche still use them. The issue was sorted for the E46 Coupe - they were only launched in April 1999. As far as I'm aware, no 6 cylinder engine from the E36 range was used in the E46 range.

69 mustang

carrollf wrote:

Hi,

I am looking at a 2000 BMW 323Ci with 57000 miles on it but am wondering if anyone has any advice on anything that could be wrong with it (more so this particular model and year!).
In general, does anyone have a similar 323Ci and if so, what do you think of it?

This is nothing about the mechanics of the car .
I lent a friend of mine my crew cab to move stuff this weekend and have his 320 ci its an 05 and I could not believe how bad people treat you when your in one with the top down.
Now I know why people give out about BMW drivers.
Today it seemed liked they were pissed they didn't have one.

unkel

kdevitt wrote:

As far as I'm aware, no 6 cylinder engine from the E36 range was used in the E46 range.

So M52TU double vanos is used in E46 (and not in E36) and it is definitely NOT nikasil, even on early april 98 saloon E46 323/328?

Thanks for clearing that up

69 mustang

In addition to my last post about the Ci just came home a few moments ago and had to wash the side of my friends car as it got egged this evening.
Only had this car one day so far.

carrollf

Thanks to all of you who replied on this thread. After all the advise I have bought a 320Ci from a main BMW dealer with the 12 month BMW used car warranty - beter bet in the end I think. I got them to throw in the multi-function wheel for free also which is neat. It comes with 16" alloys but I would rather some 18" - any advise on where I can get really nice 18"s in Ireland?