[Article] €350m on track to aid railway commuters to capital

Zebra3

From today's Irish Independent.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1485630&issue_id=13121

€350m on track to aid railway commuters to capital

Train every 15 mins promised under plan

A €350m rail system promises to transform the commuting life for tens of thousands along the busiest routes into Dublin.

Rail chiefs claim a train will run every 15 minutes under the new system - and they'll have it up and running in three years.

It will eventually be electrified and upgraded to Dart status, using Dart trains.

Big beneficiaries from the trebling of capacity will be commuters from west Dublin and Kildare and those travelling longer distances from Portlaoise, Carlow and Athlone.

But there is going to be a price to pay in the medium term for the so-called Kildare Rail Project.

Passengers face major disruption on Kildare-Heuston station commuter and inter-city services while the massive upgrade takes place between 2006 and 2009.

Rail bosses said disruption to existing services to and from Heuston Station will be "unavoidable".

And anticipating doubts that the new system will be up and running in just three years, they insisted they will deliver on time.

The one possible stumbling block is the purchase of 75-acres along the expanded route to accommodate two extra sets of tracks.

The inter-city will go on one set of tracks while the commuting trains will have their own dedictaed lines to the centre of the capital. Currently, commuters and inter-city passengers use the same lines, restricting any increase in services. Iarnrod Eireann said it would try to minimise the disruption "but the full extent of disruption will be confirmed following the public inquiry and detailed design work".

Casualties of the new plan will be Cherry Orchard Station which will be replaced with a new station at Park West - 900m away. Clondalkin station will be replaced with one a Fonthill Road, 700m away. Both had the lowest usage in the rail system. Their replacement will cater for huge residential developments.

All affected landowners have already been contacted and Iarnrod Eireann says it will advise them of the impact on their property.

The project will double the frequency of services from Hazelhatch to Dublin serving all stations at Adamstown, Kilshoge, Fonthill, Park West and Heuston and double the frequency between Dublin and Sallins, Newbridge, and Kildare, and outer commuter towns including Portlaoise and Carlow.

It will also facilitate more trains from Cork, Galway, Westport, Limerick, Waterford and Kerry and increase daily capacity in each direction from 11,050 commuterpassengers to 36,400.

Iarnrod Eireann spokesman, Barry Kenny, said: "This development will transform the rail service. It was impossible to develop the type of commuter services for these communities in the two track arrangement when you had inter-city trains feeding into lines acting as a commuter railway. It was impossible."

Under the Railway Order published yesterday the rail company is displaying the full plans at 12 different locations for 28 days.

The public then has 14 days to submit their views to Transport Minister, Martin Cullen, who will appoint an inspector to convene a public inquiry.

Mr Kenny added that an inquiry would be held early next year with detailed design works up to the autumn and construction from late 2006 to late 2009.

The project will cost at least €350m and Mr Kenny said this had been provided in the financial envelope for public transport capital projects.

Treacy Hogan
Environment Correspondent

MarkoP11

this is about the 10th time we have been told this but this looks final

JackieChan

Marko,
The railway orders have been published now so it makes it official. Its on the planning road now where as before it was just talk..talk..talk

HelterSkelter

Hmm, first talk of increases in child allowance yesterday, tax breaks on child care, now this. Is there an election coming up soon???

MarkoP11

What is missing from the report is any reference to Minister Cullen's actions

(3) The Minister shall acknowledge receipt of an application under this section within 14 days of receiving it.

Whenever an application is made for a railway order, the applicant shall, within 14 days of the Minister acknowledging receipt of the application
(a) deposit and keep deposited at such place or places, being a place or places which is or are easily accessible to the public, as may be appointed by the Minister, a copy of the draft order and all documents which accompanied the application, for not less than 28 days following the publication of the notice referred to in paragraph (b),

(b) publish a notice in one or more newspapers circulating in the area to which the order relates—

(i) indicating that an application has been made for an order,

(ii) indicating the times at which, the period during which and the place or places where a copy of the draft order and accompanying documents deposited under this section may be inspected,

(iii) stating that a public inquiry will be held into the application,

(iv) stating that the Minister will consider any submissions in relation to the proposed order or in relation to the likely effects on the environment of the proposed railway works which are submitted in writing to him or her by any person not later than 14 days after the end of the period specified in the notice referred to in subparagraph (ii), and

(v) stating that a copy of or extract from the draft order and accompanying documents may be purchased on payment of a fee not exceeding the reasonable cost of making such copy or extract,



(c) serve on the planning authority in whose functional area (or any part thereof) the proposed railway works are proposed to be carried out and on such persons (if any) as the Minister may direct a copy of the draft order and accompanying documents and the notice referred to in paragraph (b), and

(d) serve a copy of the notice referred to in paragraph (b) together with relevant extracts from the documents referred to in paragraph (a) on every (if any) occupier and every (if any) owner of land referred to in the draft order.


(2) Members of the public may inspect a copy of a draft railway order and accompanying documents deposited under this section free of charge at the times and during the period specified in the notice referred to in subsection (1)(b) and may purchase copies of or extracts from any of the documents aforesaid on payment of a fee to the applicant not exceeding the reasonable cost of making such copies or extracts as may be fixed by the applicant.

(3) A person may, not later than 30 days after the end of the period specified in subsection (2), make submissions in writing to the Minister in relation to the proposed railway order or the likely effects on the environment of the proposed railway works.

Source http://www.ucc.ie/law/irlii/statutes/2001_55.htm#z37

Until we see confirmation from the DoT nothing has happened, in fact zlich has happened until the the public inquiry closes reports and the minister accepts its outcome

IE where mean't to submit the order in 2003

loyatemu

I first heard of this plan about 5 years ago - its now got a completion date of 2009
still, at least its not urgently needed, eh?

JackieChan

Considering the first work was carried out in mid-late 2003 it is disgraceful that further phases have been delayed for so long.

MarkoP11

Of course the funding has yet to be released need I say more

Maskhadov

infastructure for slow learners

strassenwolf

I hope that it is planned to completely segregate the lines on the way into/out of Heuston so that there will never be a need for a suburban train to have to worry about whether a mainline train is entering or leaving Heuston.

This would also seem like an opportune time to put in the Ballyfermot, Inchicore and Kilmainham stations mentioned in "Platform for Change"

dowlingm

strassenwolf

Barry Kenny sez no work on the inner section until the Interconnector tunnel building work starts as you'd just end up ripping everything out to accommodate it after a few years in commission.

strassenwolf

DowlingM

For some reason I was working on the basis that the suburban lines would be the two outer lines of the 4-track system.

Probably because that's the only system I've seen in action - but no reason why it needs to be like that.

But if it is to be like that, it would be necessary to bring one of the lines under or over the mainline tracks. In order to have that line down under the mainline tracks and up again, or over the mainline tracks and down again, before going into the Phoenix Park tunnel (initially), you'd have to start quite far out.

No?

Of course this would not be necessary if the suburban tracks were side by side the whole way - but this would probably entail more work (and space?) at the suburban stations like Fonthill Road, etc.

murphaph

strassenwolf wrote:

...if the suburban tracks were side by side the whole way...

That is actually the plan! The IC lines will be the existing two tracks and two additional tracks will be added along the northern side of the existing tracks. These new tracks will be the suburban ones. There will be no need for flyovers at Heuston to allow access to the Phoenix Park Tunnel.

gjim

How much (distance wise) four tracking are we talking about here? And how many stations are invovled? Presumably the existing stations will have to be almost completely rebuilt?

murphaph

gjim wrote:

How much (distance wise) four tracking are we talking about here? And how many stations are invovled? Presumably the existing stations will have to be almost completely rebuilt?

There are basically 3 tracks from Heuston to Kylemore Road overbridge, 4 tracks from here to just beyond Hazelhatch will be built including replacing any old bridges (remember Iarnrod Eireann were clever and insisted that new bridges over the line like the M50, Clondalkin Bypass and Outer Ring Road were all built tall and wide enough for double deck DARTs and 4 tracks at least) and demolishing some station buildings and construction of new platforms.

Quickly, Cherry Orchard will be moved further west to better accomodate Park West commuters, Clondalkin will be moved further west also to just under the bypass flyover, a new station will be built for Adamstown, just west of the Newcastle-Lucan Road overbridge and Hazelhatch station wll remain where it is but require a new platform obviously. The old station building may not survive.

Further to the above, there will be significant ugrades to the signalling system out as far as Kildare.

Sarsfield

Once there's a connection to the city centre on the cards (park tunnel or interconnector) I would hope to see additional stations at Kylemore Rd, Inchicore and possibly Kilmainham as mentioned by strassenwolf. There's a lot of people & industry around there. It also gives the opportunity to Irish Rail to make the most of all it's lands in Inchicore for high density development.

John R

strassenwolf wrote:

Of course this would not be necessary if the suburban tracks were side by side the whole way - but this would probably entail more work (and space?) at the suburban stations like Fonthill Road, etc.

To use this method without causing any conflicts a flyover would be necessary at the point where the lines merge (after Hazelhatch in this case) I don't think IE will be doing this though so all westbound local trains going beyond Hazelhatch will have to cross the eastbound main line.

Both layout types are quite common, all of the main stations out of London have a version of one or the other.

Slice

This would also seem like an opportune time to put in the Ballyfermot, Inchicore and Kilmainham stations mentioned in "Platform for Change"

Platform For Change doesn't plan any of the above stations - I think they were added for illustrative purposes only. In fact Platform For Change is quite vague about station planning altogether and mostly refers to new transport corridors

strassenwolf

murphaph wrote:

That is actually the plan! The IC lines will be the existing two tracks and two additional tracks will be added along the northern side of the existing tracks. These new tracks will be the suburban ones. There will be no need for flyovers at Heuston to allow access to the Phoenix Park Tunnel.

Well that's good news. I was afraid we might end up creating Connolly Station #2.

John R wrote:

To use this method without causing any conflicts a flyover would be necessary at the point where the lines merge (after Hazelhatch in this case) I don't think IE will be doing this though so all westbound local trains going beyond Hazelhatch will have to cross the eastbound main line.

Both layout types are quite common, all of the main stations out of London have a version of one or the other.

I'd have thought that it is critical that the suburban rail services are not impeded in any way at Heuston Station by mainline trains. Would it also be fair to say that the really big demand, all day long, for a suburban service, is between Dublin and Hazelhatch? (Not, of course, denying that there is demand for Sallins-Dublin - clearly there is). Perhaps IE would plan to have a main service Dublin-Hazelhatch, with some of these services being Dublin-Sallins? I don't know. But if they were planning that, surely crossing the eastbound main line with occasional trains, would not be such a big problem as crossing it with every suburban train.

MarkoP11

Hate to spoil the show but there will 2 tracks from bridge 7 the one before the bridge at Cherry Orchard to Inchicore then 3 tracks, until the plans surface fully this cannot be confirmed but the 4 tracks are to go in when the interconnector tunnel is built

strassenwolf

MarkoP11 wrote:

Hate to spoil the show but there will 2 tracks from bridge 7 the one before the bridge at Cherry Orchard to Inchicore then 3 tracks

Well that puts a dampener on things. That is not going to help the case for using the Phoenix Park tunnel in the years before we decide whether to build the interconnector. (And if we do decide to build it, the years when we're actually building it)

until the plans surface fully

The Irish rail website says that the pdf files are up on the site - but I can't find them. Any ideas?

Sarsfield

It will appear here

http://www.iarnrodeireann.ie/projects/introduction.asp

strassenwolf

Sarsfield wrote:

It will appear here

http://www.iarnrodeireann.ie/projects/introduction.asp

Thanks for that. I've had a look at some of the files and a couple of things struck me. Maybe someone can help.

Firstly, is it necessary to actually demolish the stations at Clondalkin and Cherry Orchard? There is a lot of mention of the interconnector in the files and clearly it has had its influence in, e.g., the decision not to 4-track the whole way into Heuston. But if the 4-tracking goes ahead, electrification goes ahead and the interconnector is built, there will be a lot of suburban trains passing through Clondalkin and Cherry Orchard. It seems likely, to me, that there may well then be a clamour to reopen Clondalkin and Cherry Orchard, as well as keep the stations at Parkwest and Fonthill Road. The separations between the current stations and the proposed stations are similar to some of the separations on the DART line. (e.g. the platforms at Lansdowne Road and Sandymount are now about 550m apart and Kilbarrack and Howth Junction are practically on top of each other). So the question is, could these two stations not be mothballed (or kept open?) rather than demolished?

Secondly, unless something similar (i.e. building a third or fourth track) is done on the northside DART line, Enterprise and Dundalk arrow services will still restrict the number of DART trains which can travel on that stretch. An Enterprise entering Dublin could mean a gap of 15 minutes in the schedule. As a result, the interconnector could actually be operating at well below its theoretical capacity. It seems to me that we should do something similar to the Kildare Route project on the northside DART line, before (or at the same time as) building the interconnector, so that it could be operating at near capacity from day one.

MarkoP11

The official distance Lansdowne Rd to Sandymount is 724m

The plans (nos 1840 and 1841) show Cherry Orchard is to be completely bulldozed to provide a station would require a lot more land. The 2 new tracks go where the current inbound platform is. You might be able to come up with a case for Cherry Orchard but its an awkward spot the passenger numbers currently are less than impressive

Clondalkin finds it self between two new stations so its not really that important , Cherry Orchard is the first station out currently, remember it might be possible to add it later. Again Clondalkin is a complete bulldoze operation with tracks either side of the current station. Its not a case of mothballing the stations they just won't be there and it won't be easy to provide stations there after 4 track.

No one and I repeat no one knows where the interconnector is going to start

The northern line current fails to even reach 100% of its current capacity let alone its theoretical capacity since it hits the Connolly bottleneck. The proposal is for a total of 14 trains an hour worst case, current signalling can only take 12, bog standard signalling if done right will bring you to 2:30-3:00 intervals thus giving 20 slots/hour yes it could do with 4 tracks but its only 4.7 miles compared to the 8 miles IE are doing on the Kildare line where intercity services out number suburban trains and where the speed difference is much higher

murphaph

I think there's grounds to try to save as much of Cherry Orchard as possible but because the new stations at Fonthill and Parkwest will adequately cover the catchment area for the existing Clondalkin Station, so I'm happy for it to go.

As for quad tracking the Northern Line, well, the line is nowhere near as busy on an IC basis as Heuston is as it only serves Dundalk & Belfast (Sligo and Rosslare don't count as under the DRP they would have no bearing on the northern line DARTs.

Now, even though the DARTs will only interfaces with the Enterprise there might be a case for adding a third track and or passing loops between Connolly and Drogheda. IE believe that they will be able to deal with the issues through substantive signalling upgrades.

I'm not too worried about it right now tbh. You'll only really be looking at an Enterprise to Dundalk and on to Belfast every hour or so. They can travel at DART speeds as far as the first passing loop beyond Howth Junction and overtake the DART in front there.

strassenwolf

MarkoP11 wrote:

The official distance Lansdowne Rd to Sandymount is 724m

Could that be the distance between the front of one platform to the front of the other? Or perhaps an older figure before they lengthened the platforms? I was talking about the actual gap between the two platforms. [I measured it on one of those Google maps things where you can measure the distance between two points and came up with approximately 550m. Why would someone do such an exercise? Well, I was walking along that stretch last week, and it occurred to me that if IE ever decided to use 12 carriage trains, as has been suggested, then those two stations are actually going to be pretty close to one another).

Anyway, thats not relevant to the thread.

MarkoP11 wrote:

The plans (nos 1840 and 1841) show Cherry Orchard is to be completely bulldozed to provide a station would require a lot more land. The 2 new tracks go where the current inbound platform is. You might be able to come up with a case for Cherry Orchard but its an awkward spot the passenger numbers currently are less than impressive

Clondalkin finds it self between two new stations so its not really that important , Cherry Orchard is the first station out currently, remember it might be possible to add it later. Again Clondalkin is a complete bulldoze operation with tracks either side of the current station. Its not a case of mothballing the stations they just won't be there and it won't be easy to provide stations there after 4 track.

Unfortunately the PDF files available on the Irish Rail website don't seem to have the diagrams. I'll have to go and view them somewhere.

Murphaph wrote:

I think there's grounds to try to save as much of Cherry Orchard as possible but because the new stations at Fonthill and Parkwest will adequately cover the catchment area for the existing Clondalkin Station, so I'm happy for it to go.

I'd agree with a lot of that. If if it is possible to keep a station, e.g. in the case of Cherry Orchard - then it should be kept, rather than go to the expense of bulldozing them now and maybe having to rebuild them 10 years down the line. A bit like taking away all those useless tram lines.

On the issue of capacity, perhaps trains could just run from Hazelhatch to Spencer Dock at times when an Enterprise/Dundalk arrow is due to travel out along the northside DART line? This might be one way to fill in gaps across town, even if there is a gap of suburban services on the northern DART line.

One other thing about this. Anyone feel that the park and ride facilities are a little unambitious?

Metrobest

I don't approve of the idea of just bulldozing two stations, however little they are used, without proper consultation. If this is supposed to be a high density transport corridor, why take stations away from established residential areas? Stations like Cherry Orchard were never going to be popular with commuters given the infrequency of the service, lack of capacity and poor customer service from Irish Rail; who's to say the stations wouldn't be better utilised if the whole service package were to improve? Why is there the feeling that this [demolition] wouldn't happen if the station stood in the leafy suburbs of South Dublin (eg. Sandymount/Landsdowne) - just look at how the locals scuppered the Dun Laoghaire baths plan!

Another thing that struck me is this. I think the ratio of car park spaces to "bicycle storage spaces" is way off kilter. The ratio is roughly 10:1 in favour of the private car, according to the plans. I suspect the provision of a meagre 36 bike spaces at each station is a tokenistic gesture because they've seen the RPA do it at the Luas stops on the Green line. Again, this is total lack of vision on Irish Rail's part. What's the point in substituting one car journey (into town) for another (to the train station)? The effects on the environment are pretty much the same, the effects on the roads are pretty much the same (albeit concentrated in a different area), and sustainable commuting is not promoted. Why waste taxpayers' money on acres of car parking spaces when, in one quarter of the space, you could provide hundreds of bike spaces. For a rail company, it's an oddly car-centric approach.

mackerski

Metrobest wrote:

Why is there the feeling that this [demolition] wouldn't happen if the station stood in the leafy suburbs of South Dublin (eg. Sandymount/Landsdowne) - just look at how the locals scuppered the Dun Laoghaire baths plan!

I'm not sure everybody will relate to your image of a scruffy railway station being worthy of preservation due to architectural significance.

Dermot

A Dub in Glasgo

It happens, have a look at the picture of Birmingham New Street Signal Box

http://www.guardian.co.uk/gallery/image/0,8543,-11104251730,00.html

mackerski

Some would argue that that's one of the prettier buildings in the vicinity of New St. Station.

Dermot