Petition: Re-open the Dublin to Navan & Kells railway NOW!

procat

Meath on Track petition to re-open the Dublin to Navan and Kells railway line.

Travel time would be 65mins to Dublin city centre from Navan via the existing Drogheda line, if the petition is heeded and it is opened to commuter traffic.

Beats the two and a half hour commute at the moment:cool:

http://www.meathontrack.com/

dowlingm

Navan sure. Kells - try again when Navan is a success.

procat

It's called planning.

Meath's population is 10,000 ahead of what it was forecast to be in 2011, and this was only discovered a couple of weeks ago. and the figures themselves are a few years old.

You have to remember, the whole county of Cavan serves as a hinterland to Kells - Kells can't just be measured on it's own population.

2.5hrs each way as a commute time to Dublin makes it viable to consider opening the Kells section too, especially when all Meath towns are currently bursting at the seams - Navan alone is set to grow by 2 thirds over the next number of years.

You see, the skills shortage in Dublin isn't helped by these commuting problems either. There is a brain drain effect by screwing people over, and limiting their employability through wasting hours in traffic.

Sure, there are people that want to work but can't because of the ludicris commute times to Dublin. And at the end of the day, according to Irisjobs on RTÉ yesterday, good employees are like gold dust - the economy needs this too.

MarkoP11

Population Navan roughly 25,000, Kells 3,000 if lucky, considering the difficulty of even getting to a rail line to Navan insisting on Kells just makes the cost look even worse would cost 50-70million without rolling stock and thats for 10 miles, the government don't care and anyway way out any excuse will be given

The realities

Strategic Rail Review did not review Kells
Strategic Rail Review rejected Navan by both routes
Iarnrod Eireann surveyed Navan Clonsilla in the mid 1990's, they did not survey Kells
We don't want to promote further suburban sprawl Navan is 30 miles out its too far already
Kells would fail any cost benefit analysis badly (Navan Dublin did so its a reasonable statement)
There is political support for Navan Dublin
External benefits such as traffic reduction etc minimal given low population in Kells

The spread of low density housing means people would end of driving to get to a station anyway

Its not the time saved its the cumulative effect, its time saved times the number of passengers, Navan fails even to get by a cost benefit analysis and its 8 times the size of Kells

Read the plan http://www.platform11.org/campaigns/navan/ Iarrnord Eireann got a copy last month, you could be on the train to Navan in 2 years with even having to get planning permission

Maskhadov

Why not have a realistic petition to get the Navan rail line reopened. The West on Track took a massive campaign and the government is only going to look at realistic proposals. If the Navan commuter service was popular then talk of extending it further towards the border could begin

procat

Border of where?

Talk began years ago about re-opening the line.

All we up here can do is hope that at least some of the proposals are implemented soon..

Because Blanch is the biggest car-park in Ireland..

Maskhadov

The only international border in ireland to to cavan. in decades to come services could then hit the border onto Enniskillen and then west to Bundoran and then north to Letterkenny ( i think there is old railway lines there along that part of the route). Letterkenny to Derry and you have a real service for people in the north west.

Victor

Maskhadov wrote:

.... and you have a real service for people in the north west.

But nobody lives there!*


* relatively

Maskhadov

Derry is a big city relatively speaking !

Victor

Maskhadov wrote:

Derry is a big city relatively speaking !

But it already has one underused railway.

Maskhadov

well a connected up modern service to dublin would take a lot of the traffice of the likes of the N2 and N3. The current rail service from derry goes to belfast AFAIK and there isnt a whole pile for people to commute to there in fairness.

murphaph

Maskhadov wrote:

well a connected up modern service to dublin would take a lot of the traffice of the likes of the N2 and N3. The current rail service from derry goes to belfast AFAIK and there isnt a whole pile for people to commute to there in fairness.

....and you reckon folk would commute from Derry to Dublin? :eek:

Beekeeper

why do rail advocacy groups with the "on-track" title in their names always take a reasonable idea and extrapolate it into the realm of the absurd. i.e; West-on-Track - 'resonable' Ennis to Athenry, Oranmore. absurd...Knock Airport, Tubbercurry, Kiltimagh...etc & Meath-on-Track - 'resonable' Drogheda to Navan, 'absurd'...Kells...Cavan...etc.

I agree that the Clonsilla branchline to National Toll Roads is a shameful explotation of Navan commuters. But I will not sign this petition due to the Kells addition.

MarkoP11

Forget about anything north of Navan given all the maths say Navan is unviable, if you ware looking for a way to kill Dublin Navan direct mentioning Kells will do it, since its not sensible its not viable and shows no consideration for the realities of what is both feasible and practical, you need to come to the table with a plan the makes sense and you then will be listened too, if you do it right you win

BTW the route to Derry from Dublin was Mullingar, Inny Junction, Cavan, Clones, Enniskillen, Omagh, Strabane, Derry. Probably longer than the currently open routes (via Belfast & Bleach Green or via Lisburn), The other way requires you to reopen to Clonsilla Navan Kingscourt a new mainline railway from Kingscourt to Omagh and reopen Omagh Strabane Derry and I can't see either happening. Dublin Clonsilla Navan has nothing to do with any possibilty of Dublin Derry so why bring it up ?

ishmael whale

Beekeeper wrote:

I will not sign this petition due to the Kells addition.

Pretty much what he said.

Additionally, is there much point in campaigning for stand-alone projects like this? As I understand it the essential problem with commuter rail in Dublin is the absence of a second North/South crossing. What's the point of introducing a Navan service, if it simply leads to a reduction in Drogheda/Maynooth services because of the choke point at the Loop Line bridge?

A more relevant campaign would be to focus on the need for a comprehensive approach to Dublin/Mid East rail needs. I'm not particularly saying the Dublin Rail Plan, although it has my vote.

MarkoP11

if you go here http://www.platform11.org/campaigns/navan/ you will see Navan Drogheda Dublin uses capacity current idle and that you can't reopen Clonsilla Navan unless extra capacity becomes availble in the city centre area, ishmael whale is quite correct cross city capacity is the real problem and a one project focus is not the way to go, the bigger picture must be considered

aliveandkicking

Reopening the train to Kells is just completely ridiculous. Its beyond absurd to suggest the Government fund the reopening of a rail line to cater for a town of 3000. I would support the reopening of Navan but certainly not Kells.

OfflerCrocGod

It's lebensraum.

Maskhadov

I read that 15 page pdf file on platform 11 and I thought it was well written btw.

I think they should open up the navan rail line. The population is going to sky rocket there in future years and a rail service would be a god send for commuters compared to driving. Whatever it costs it will pay for itself in future years. I guess it all comes down to priorities but when you see the government wasting all that money on consultans you begin to wonder.

SeanW

I won's sign the MOT petition either because of the Kells business. It's not Lego yer building (a phrase borrowed from An Taoiseach speaking of this very same issue)

Anyways I have a video segement of Bertie in the Dail saying "of course it makes sense Ceann Comhairle, to ultimately to go to de Navan Line .." If anyone's interested

Flukey

They should go a lot further. As this map will show, one of the craziest things in Ireland's rail network is the massive gap between the Dublin-Sligo line and the Dublin-Belfast line.




I am not sure if it is true, but I've heard it said that there have been no major rail lines laid in the country since independence. There should obviously be a line direct between Dublin and Derry, which would help to serve that gap. The part nearer to Dublin would serve the large communter belt in Meath. A mainline to Derry would have many spurs off it to serve surrounding areas, serving the north midlands and mid-Ulster.

The Western Corridor should be reopened and extended north into Donegal - to give it its first mainline rail - and on to Derry. Lines running from Belfast through mid Ulster and on southwest to help link up the north-east, mid-ulster and the west and south-west should be built too. That gap in Ireland's rail network would then be criss-crossed. A few of those projects would benefit all those areas, but it would need co-operation, and for a load of idiots not to plant explosives along it.

So yes, open the lines to Meath, but don't stop there.

MarkoP11

An earlier post pointed this out there seems to be a crazy need in this country to put forward projects which have no chance in hell of making it and to track them onto realistic project thus killing the otherwise reasonable project

There were 3 routes from Dublin to Derry, 2 are now closed, the current route on paper would be shorter in real terms than either of the closed lines

This is a thread about Dublin Navan (and the slightly crazy dream of Kells) If people want to live a dream of Dublin Derry create a thread and leave the serious and realistic business of Navan on its own, there is something called staying on topic

Flukey

I am fully in favour of a line to Meath, it is badly needed. All I was saying was that it should be done and as part of a much larger project, building to Meath and onwards. We should be re-opening lines that exist that could now be used as commuter lines and building brand new lines. Many commuter lines are sections of mainline or run alongside them. The two projects can be done at once as in many cases it is on the same line, so they don't have to clash with each other. I didn't intend to go off topic. I am sorry if I appeared to do so.

PandaMania

Flunkey, the Western Rail Corridor cannot be reopened because there never was a Western Rail Corridor to begin with. The so called corridor is nothing more that a wildy speculative collection of old tramways and other lines which never delivered real public transport in the West even when there was no road alternative in the past and have even less chance of it working now.

Commuter rail services for Galway, Limerick and perhaps Sligo to Boyle is way to go, along with a fully integrated regional bus network. Anything else is folly. Look at the P11 website and pick a project on it to support - they are all winable and make sense.

A blank area on the IE map is not mandate to start developing rail transport. We need to focus on getting tracks and more importantly rail SERVICES to the people who will use them in the greatest numbers. That's real "social justice" and "regional development".

Athenry to Ennis maybe (and it is a BIG maybe IMHO) in the next 10 years or so...but after Navan and more deserving places get rail investment first. Rail services to Kells is a feckin stupid idea which undermines real need in Navan in the same way the three-trains a day Sligo to Limerick fetish of the WRC, undermines the real need for commuter services around Limerick and Galway.

I live next to the WRC and I can tell you nobody here gives a toss about it or will use it. Nobody here is stuck in traffic. They are in Navan, Galway and Limerick. Don't believe the hype. The truth will set us all free.

Maskhadov

It all seems a bit late for the new transport package though..

Call for commuter trains on Dublin to Navan line
Elaine Keogh




Over 600 commuters have signed an on-line petition calling for Irish Rail to put commuter trains on the existing Dublin to Navan railway line that passes through Drogheda.

The Meath On Track campaign claims that two express trains daily would take 1,500 commuters off the rush-hour gridlocked roads linking Meath to the capital.

The rail line is currently used for freight, but campaign spokesman Proinsias MacFhearghusa says upgrading it to take commuter trains should be given priority, as should reopening the train line from Dublin to Kells via Navan, Ratoath and Dunshaughlin.

Irish Rail has confirmed it plans to open a station at Dunboyne, Co Meath, with a park-and-ride facility at nearby Pacetown, but Mr MacFhearghusa says this is not suitable for many commuters.

"The big problem with the Dunboyne extension is that it isn't a rail solution for Meath. It will go as far as the Dublin-Meath border where it stops, and when the M3 opens most of us living in Meath will have to pay two motorway tolls each way to get to Dunboyne as well as park-and-ride charges, and that is before we even pay for our rail tickets.

"Thousands of people left Dublin and bought homes in Meath believing that the railway lines would reopen. Now they do not have the quality of life they expected, and their children are suffering because their parents cannot find work near their homes."

Among those who have signed the petition is Martin Reilly, who leaves his home between Navan and Kells at 6.15am to get to work on the East Wall Road for 7.45am.

He has three children aged between two and 14, and says he is missing quality time with them .

He says the same journey took 50 minutes five years ago, and he believes the congestion on the roads "is getting worse every day. "

A spokesman for Irish Rail said the Drogheda to Navan line would cost €100 million to upgrade to allow it take commuter trains, and to do this would only add to the existing pressure from the growing numbers using the Drogheda to Dublin service.

With the plans to develop the line from Dunboyne to Clonsilla and into Dublin, he said it would be almost "irresponsible" to upgrade the Drogheda to Navan line.

The company also plans to open a docklands station to take the extra capacity that the Dunboyne station will create.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2005/1025/1197579346HM5RAILLINE.html

© The Irish Times

MarkoP11

Given the fact Iarnród Éireann deliever under budget on most project the sum of the savings currently is 37 million and that is money IE have been given, that has passed the CBA, Net rate of returns etc

If they give it back 75-80% will be spent on roads but if IE kept it all the small things could be done, Navan Drogheda could be relaid entirely for that, wouldnt get new signaling just the real basic but enough to make it work

murphaph

It makes you wonder why CIE bother coming in under budget when the excess is just returned to the exchequer. If they can come in under budget with such little incentive then imagine the results if they were directed to keep the money saved and invest it elsewhere!

Victor

MarkoP11 wrote:

Given the fact Iarnród Éireann deliever under budget on most project the sum of the savings currently is 37 million and that is money IE have been given, that has passed the CBA, Net rate of returns etc

What does this €37m refer to?

Bluetonic

procat wrote:

Meath on Track petition to re-open the Dublin to Navan and Kells railway line.

Travel time would be 65mins to Dublin city centre from Navan via the existing Drogheda line, if the petition is heeded and it is opened to commuter traffic.
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Whats the capacity of in and out movements at Connolly Station at the moment per hour on the northern route (suburban/DART)?

What level of capacity is currently being used daily?

Would also love to see where the figure of 65 mins to Dublin city centre from Navan came from? Procat have you a source for this? Was it in the middle of the night with no other traffic on the lines?

MarkoP11

Current stated savings over budgeted costs on current projects totalling €1.3 billion is €37 million. Barry Kenny of IE has stated this numerous times, they have the money if they where bothered but it appears that IE, Meath CC and the NRA are partners in this they all have failed to get there act together, Meath CC being the worst by far but IE don't help at all by quoting costs which they know are wrong it costs 2.75million a mile to reopen Ennis Athenry but Navan Drogheda is quoted by IE as 5.88 million a mile despite being open to traffic today, I am I missing something or are IE trying to bury any possibility of any rail service by any route to Navan

The timetable and costs are http://www.platform11.org/campaigns/navan/navan_drogheda.php its 73 minutes at 7.30am and there is plenty of unused capacity and Iarnród Éireann admit the slots are in place and usable, and if the foot went down between Navan and Drogheda and it was non stop (the Platform11 proposal has 3 stations, Navan, Navan East and Duleek) 65 minutes is possible but not recommended

Bluetonic

Has the Platform11 proposal carried out any projections on where the extra passangers would fit on the services as per the current timetable? And how extra passengers would compromise saftey?

I would be interested to hear how passengers from Portrane, Donabate, Rush and Lusk, Skerries and Balbriggan feel about the possibility of your peaktime services, which already run to over capacity (passenger wise), being stretched (with no additional services/possibly one or two) to include the larger catchment area of Meath. All this couple with the fact that everyone of Portrane, Donabate, Rush and Lusk, Skerries and Balbriggan catchment areas are expanding rapidly.

MarkoP11

Bluetonic read the timetable again we are talking about extra trains here there is extra capacity going in

There is no way you could fit Navan in without running extra services, thus the proposal includes 2 extra services. We have admission from Iarnrod Eireann that the track capacity is there. We estimate the provision of extra capacity in the region of 1500 south of Drogheda.

The two trains from Navan are new services thus increase capacity they are not current services they are extra. There is no safety issue and approx 1500 extra capacity is added which will be a welcome sight for Northern Line commutters

The current timetable makes very poor use of track capacity a new timetable built from the ground up would have a massive impact

Bluetonic

MarkoP11 wrote:

Bluetonic read the timetable again we are talking about extra trains here there is extra capacity going in

There is no way you could fit Navan in without running extra services, thus the proposal includes 2 extra services. We have admission from Iarnrod Eireann that the track capacity is there. We estimate the provision of extra capacity in the region of 1500 south of Drogheda.

The two trains from Navan are new services thus increase capacity they are not current services they are extra. There is no safety issue and approx 1500 extra capacity is added which will be a welcome sight for Northern Line commutters

The current timetable makes very poor use of track capacity a new timetable built from the ground up would have a massive impact

I did read the timetable. The 17:10 Connolly -> Navan is merely an extension of the 17:10 Connolly -> Balbriggan. No new service here. So 3/4s of the movements will be new, 1/4 will be shared with existing passenger capacity

Have you got an overview timetable of how this fits in with the DART and Enterprise movements? Would love to see how tight the margins are.

MarkoP11

The 17:10 is a 4 coach service currently make it 8 instantly get 620 more spaces, the main capacity issue is in the mornings not the evenings, mornings is where the real pinch is, in fact in the evenings there is a possible free slot right slap in the middle of peak hour that could be used

Iarnrod Eireann have put there hands up and admit there are slots free that could be used, we spotted them and they admit they are there. All margins are within spec of the signaling system account for conflicting movements at Howth Junction and Connolly and are no tighter than already in place in the timetable. There is space and lots of it

If a proper timetable was put in place a heap more trains could be fitted in

Bluetonic

MarkoP11 wrote:

The 17:10 is a 4 coach service currently

As a side to all this have IE ever done any cost benefit analysis as to viability CPOs to lay extra lines (even one) on the Drogheda -> Dublin route. It is without doubt that these would be needed if the the railways are to cater for Platform 11 Extend the Dart proposal, the link to Navan and beyond, and the possible relocation of Drogheda port (and possibly Dublin port) to Bremore (north Balbriggan).

BrianD

aliveandkicking wrote:

Reopening the train to Kells is just completely ridiculous. Its beyond absurd to suggest the Government fund the reopening of a rail line to cater for a town of 3000. I would support the reopening of Navan but certainly not Kells.

Yes, but they can justify a motorway! However, its quite clear from the construction of the M3 and the N2 routes that this area is to be opened up for suburban sprawl. By the time the rail line is built there probably be adequate numbers to justify its existence.

MarkoP11

The ideal route to Navan is via Clonsilla that is the only one that work in the long term that said Navan Drogheda is still a very useful regional link once it opens not to mention an alternative routing if needed, what we need is a rail network not a few lines

The extend the dart proposal is not something Platform 11 dreamt up its our media spin on something called "Provision of a fully integrated rail network for the Greater Dublin region 2004-2010", it exists and sometime next week or two DART to Drogheda, Maynooth, Dunboyne etc is likely to become a reality

No additional tracks are proposed on the Northern Route none would seem required to accommodate the proposed service level. yes an survey was done and under Platform for Change a 3rd track East Wall Rd to Howth Junction was recommended as part of the overall investment strategy which showed a positive rate of return at 14.7% and a cost benefit ratio of 2.75

Short term the simplest cheapest and fastest way to get Navan a rail service is via Drogheda it doesn't need a railway works order, in fact no need for planning permission, its has the least red tape, it can be done. Clonsilla Navan is long term and while needed it will be a minimum of 5 years possibly even 10 before it opens even if it was authorised today. The public documentation for the 7 miles of the Kildare Route Project comes to 400Mb in total and thats been kicked around since 2001 so imagine how long it will take for the 22 odd miles Clonsilla Navan just to get the red tape covered to a point to apply for an order to build the line

dowlingm

It's also worth noting that since rolling stock would need to be bought in the long run to make up for Navan service requirements then the Sligo line could be relieved of some 29000s in favour of something suitable for Intercity running...

Sysiphus

aliveandkicking wrote:

Reopening the train to Kells is just completely ridiculous. Its beyond absurd to suggest the Government fund the reopening of a rail line to cater for a town of 3000. I would support the reopening of Navan but certainly not Kells.

As a resident of Kells, I have signed the petition, however I do agree the extending the line to Kells is impracticle, however bear in mind that Kells is currently groing at a huge rate. To use the governments own spin, with proper joined up thinking they need to future proof and investment in critical transport infrastructure in the commuter zone.

Currently there are 6 new housing developments taking place in Kells. To me that seems to point to a rapid growth in population of the area within two years, I don't know how many more developments are taking place in outerlying areas, like oldcastle or mullagh, but you can be pretty damn sure that as land and house prices escalate in dublin and with the dunshaughlin area more developments will push further out. As Kevin Cosner said, "if you build it they will come" there is no point in waiting till they are here already, look at what will happen with Adamstown, there is no point in waiting till the people are there before you put in the infrastructure!

So, the Navan line at least is an absolute must, any of the usual prevarication or himming and hawing by this, what I would very loosly term, government is unacceptable.

Why is it that they keep telling us that we live in one of the richest most progressive countries in the world, yet we are forced to live with third world transport, health, broadband, corruption etc ad infinitum. They need to get their finger out and start spending OUR money the way we want it spent, not how they decide to flitter it away on usless junk - e voting, computer systems, media lab, jetS, consultants, makeup etc.

I say rail up navan, before the ridiculous commute that people undertake everyday (4-5 hrs a day for me) de-rails the economy!

Victor

Sysiphus wrote:

Currently there are 6 new housing developments taking place in Kells.

Why? Is there somewhere for these people to work? Schools? Shops? Health services? Transport?

The money that these residents demand for infrasructure is a subsidy to their houses.

Sysiphus wrote:

Why is it that they keep telling us that we live in one of the richest most progressive countries in the world,

Don't confuse income with wealth.

MarkoP11

Lets be clear here Navan has a population of roughly 25k and is likely to reach 60k by 2011, Kells has a population of maybe 3,000 even if it triples it won't make any difference its still won't be big enough

Meath CC the DoT and Iarnrod Eireann are well aware this and still refuse to make any move at all based on a claim the line to Navan is not viable if the numbers say no to Navan I don't think we want to even waste the money to find out they are even worse for Kells

Get Navan Dublin sorted first you can think about Kells later its not a priority

Thomond Pk

Neither is Mountmellick