Who do you blame for the current problems in the Internet in Ireland?

Bard

Yes folks, it's a poll. Have your say here...

Who do YOU blame?

Enygma

How could someone *not* blame eircom?

Gavin

I would be of the opinion that it largely lies at the foot of the government and the ODTR. At the end of the day, Eircom is trying to make money, it is a business. However, they also have the responsibility of owning the local loop lines which I think was a mistake on the part of the government when privatisation occured. As such, it is up to the ODTR to ensure that Eircom do not take advantage of the situation.

It's like giving bunsen burners to students. You know that if you go away they will start roasting each other, but if you hang around and supervise they will do the experiment properly.

the ODTR need to shout a bit louder and have some more teeth.

Gav

pete

can i just suggest removing mary o'rourkes name and just leaving that wonderful catch-all "the government".

it's not *entirely* her fault, after all

Bard

...

I'll leave this poll open for a while... should be interesting to see the results.

-will stick said results on our web site.

-.-.-.-.

also coming up on our web site, by the way, is a statement on our accounts (income and expenditure) - in an effort to be as transparent as possible... and more press releases.

Dr99

It's like giving bunsen burners to students. You know that if you go away they will start roasting each other, but if you hang around and supervise they will do the experiment properly.

We used to atach the bunsen burners to the water taps and soak each other

<backontopic> why is Gateway listed? a Joke? or could they realy be to blame? (I used to work for them 2 years ago and I know they bloked our access to the net, scaby gits!!) </backontopic>

chernobyl

Its all Eircoms fault.

Eircom must be a pretty scary company to work for knowing that "the only reason ppl use them is because they have to" should irish ppl even be given a true alernative, Eircom go bye bye.

Bard

Originally posted by Dr99

<backontopic> why is Gateway listed? a Joke? or could they realy be to blame? (I used to work for them 2 years ago and I know they bloked our access to the net, scaby gits!!) </backontopic>

they're listed partly as a joke and partly seriously.

It's like asking "would you pay for Eircoms new ADSL service at the rates they're setting?" and giving the answer options: "Yes", "No" and "Boutros-Boutros Ghali".

That might be an interesting topic for the next poll, actually...

b20uvkft6m5xwg

I'd like be able to pick more than one of said culpritts.

Is this possible?? I actually feel it would be a bit disingenious to purley pick "€....." & let the others off:(

The question leaves itself open for there to be more than one guilty party...."Who do you blame for the current problems in the Internet in Ireland? "

If for instance if the q. was "Who do you blame the most for the current problems in the Internet in Ireland? "
Then one answer would suffice!

Wadya Think?

dahamsta

I chose "someone else", which isn't entirely accurate, but the option wasn't available. Maybe you should have a "Nearly Everyone" option?

I blame Eircom and the Irish Government primarly and equally; with the ODTR, Esat, Chorus and NTL coming in a very (very) close joint second. The Competition Authority and the rest of the OLO's excluding Esat come in third.

I blame Eircom for being anti-competitive, greedy, anti-consumer, anti-small-business, etc, etc. You all know how I feel about Eircom. I detest them as a company, and I despise Ray MacSharry and Alfie Kane as the utterly incompetent management of that company (I don't know them personally). Let's just leave it at that, eh? I could go on for hours.

I blame the Irish Government for spouting rhetoric about hubs and such-and-such, and expecting connected Ireland to appear out of nowhere, with no input (monetary, regulatory or otherwise) from themselves. Forget about Global Crossing, that benefitted no-one in real Irish businesses. For real Irish businesses and consumers, the current Irish government has done absolutely nothing. Zero. Zip.

I blame the ODTR for giving the cable companies local monopolies, but mostly for acting like a big girls blouse with Eircom, handling them with kid gloves throughout the ongoing debacles of the past several years. If the problem is one of power, then I feel sorry for them, but it's no excuse in the long run - if you want power, you go to the people who can give it to you and you explain why you need it. You go and get it. If you can't get it, you're not doing your job right. It's the ODTR's job to promote competition in the telecommunications marketplace - it says so right there on their website - and if they can't do it, they should give it up and let someone else have a go.

I blame Esat for also acting like a big fairy. Esat only took the initiative in the popular press once, shortly after the Surf Limits debacle, and that was pretty much because we forced their hand. Esat had and still have the power and the wealth to take this to the popular press and make it a public-affairs issue. They have the ability and the know-how to bring the very serious problems in the Irish telecommunications marketplace to the attention of the public, but they've steadfastly refused to do so. The only conclusion I can draw from that, as a member of the public without access to what goes on behind the scenes, is that Esat are content with the status quo, which reeks of market control.

I blame Chorus and NTL for not giving a toss about their customers, just like it seems nearly every telecommunications agency in the country. Is there no pride in business in Ireland any more? I take great pleasure in developing good solutions for my customers, and making sure they're happy with my company on an ongoing basis, but I don't know of one telecommunications company with the same ideals. Doesn't anybody achieve happiness from a job well done any more? Or is a "job well done" directly related to making money for you sad, greedy little people?

I blame the Competition Authority for not taking part in this situation. There's quite obviously a serious, serious problem in the telecommunications marketplace, particularly when it comes to Internet connectivity, and particularly when it comes to small businesses and consumers - the people that are most important to protect. The businesses controlling the markets are literally killing off small business. There's serious market control going on in the background. It's your job to recognise that, and deal with it. You haven't.

And finally I blame the rest of the OLO's for not trying harder. I will concede something to the smaller OLO's, in that they don't have the resources, but a good portion of them do. Again, I suspect a contentedness with the status quo. And again I have to ask - have you no pride?

What saddens and upsets me most about all of this is that although all of this has been crystal clear for several years now, there's still no change. The only changes that have come about in recent times - and they've been minimal, and mostly only relate to attitude - have been forced by us, a small group of consumers and small business that didn't even exist three months ago. The people who are supposed to deal with this kind of incompetence and negligence are doing nothing to protect us. Isn't that what government is for? To protect its citizens?

adam

PS. Bard, you can't publish the accounts on the website for gods sake man! You're part of an organisation involved in the telecommunications industry in Ireland - transparency is a very serious no-no. Shame on you!

chernobyl

148+ ppl viewed this thread, only 7 replies and under 50 votes.
and you complain, Eircom dont listen to your needs....they dont have to, you are prepared to accept their crap.



you have a chance to attribute blame and you dont.

dahamsta

Actually, I feel like I've wasted a vote now. *sob*

adam

dahamsta

Actually, to be fair, 148 people haven't (or hadn't at the time) viewed the page, it was loaded 148 times. It's a small misleading flaw in vBulletin that will be corrected in the next release.

adam

b20uvkft6m5xwg

Adam:
I am glad someone unleashed hell on all the parties concerned. I was afraid that my reasons would take up many many pages!

The poll itself is like trying to define "How long is piece of string"
There is now right/wrong answer. The blame lies @ the doorstep of every party involved (except the consumers obvioulsy-apart from what €$at will have you believe)

How about a new poll w/ watertight question on the official website?? It will move some traffic over there as well.

dahamsta

Heh, I was going to ask Bard to post a poll meself the other day, not on this subject but on the concept of a "No Net" day, as suggested elsewhere. I spent an hour trying to come up with a suitable questions and options, and was forced to give up.

adam

Corko

Eircom & Esat are commercail companys - there to make PROFIT.
The Regulator should be more pro-active & put the fear of God into them

Relative

VERB :the ODTR need to shout a bit louder and have some more teeth.

DITTO

If you are going to put Esat in the pole then CHORUS & NTL should also be included?
What about FORMUS?

Point being with Formus out there is only four players (Eircon,Esat, Chorus, NTL) because the ODTR (Etain Doyle) never reissued a licence. (BROADBAND)
Broadnet who applied for one & held up the whole process for a year could also be included in the POLE?

Bard

ok...

although the votes so far are fairly heavily loaded on blaming Eircom (- as I expected, to be honest), I've added the 2 options at the end "another ISP" and "all/most of the ISP's & governing bodies"

Also- I've changed the question, as 80p suggested... who do you blame THE MOST.

Perhaps we should restart the poll?...

Straker

I blame the Government for starting it, & Eircom for the present mess! Self explanatory, really.

b20uvkft6m5xwg

Originally posted by Bard


Perhaps we should restart the poll?...

I think its probably best @ this early stage.

Sorry Niall, I think you've just caught the wrath of my highly over analytical streak;)
If we are to put polls up on our site and present them to the public as being representative of our members then we must ensure the parties involved cannot rebuke the facts by stating that the poll itself is inherently flawed. We saw the kind of response we had to €ircons stats & surveys. We want to be able to stand by any info we gather as being wholly representative.

This is why the wording & structure of the question needs be as watertight as possible.
Maybe you'd like to run a few prospective polls by a few of us, because I do think they can exist as a significant asset on irelandoffline.com

NeilF

Originally posted by Bard
Perhaps we should restart the poll?...

These web polls are grand to quickly gauge opinion to something or for a laugh and general banter (see slashdot). I wouldn't use any figures/results from it in an official way so I would leave it. Anyway, Eircom would still top the poll

That said, we should have a more detailed and thought out survey on the web site and use that to generate some stats and figures on our members, and other users in general. This is the sort of stuff we need for a future seminar or future meetings, particularly with the government. There was a thread and a WikiWikiWeb page on the topic of a survey but things seem to have gone a bit quiet. Any news?

yellum

The ODTR, who are doing nothing, which is the fault of the government.

Eircom like all companies are there to make the maximum return on the least investment in as little time as possible while ensuring continued market dominance.

dahamsta

Perhaps we should restart the poll?... [/B]

To be honest I think it's a loaded question with too many possible answers to produce properly measurable statistics (jeez, now I'm starting to sound like a statistician). This is more a matter of opinion, that needs to be qualified.

If I might make a suggestion though, how about posting a question like this on a regular basis, asking people's opinions. Stick it to the top and let it run for say a week, and then lock it and get someone to sum it up? Or just let it run maybe.

Anyway, if you're going to continue running with it - I don't think you should - I would also suggest that we remove the "jokey" or unlikely answers, like "the US economy", "Gateway" (is it still there? I can't see from here) and "other operators". And move my vote to "All of the above" please!

adam

nahdoic

OK so this poll may not be exactly scientificly sound, but it is pretty interesting to point out, that as I post this message Esat Fusion has not gotten a single vote

Considering they were the ones that really started this whole fiasco with the infamous letter, I think it shows an incredible amount of unbiased opinion by this community. It shows the members are just looking at the raw facts and making well informed rational decisions about the real situation of net access in Ireland.

hmm maybe I am just talking rubbish, I probably am.

smokin' an'chewin' man

Originally posted by Enygma
How could someone *not* blame eircom?

Are you serious ?

Who handed Eircom a complete monopoly over the network ?

Who established the ODTR with no enforcement power and no unilateral action power ?

Who has donw nothing to move unbundling forward in the last year ?

Who ? :rolleyes:

Typedef

twas the night before christmas and all through the house not a creature was stirring except
the redneck President George Bush who's administration managed to give global economy good kick in the ass by scrapping 5 major treaties in the first six months of office and giving two fingers to all of it's allies....
hmmm whatever you may say about how the global economy was recessing georgeous george and oil-muppet cabinet didn't do the global economy any favours by creating a diplomatic climate of resentment and this only helped to spurn the "new money" that is the internet yeah?

It's a battle between new money (or us tech people) and the old monsters of industry who would like to roll the clocks back to the days of cold war and big brother IMHO ok?

"quid proquo"

BoneCollector

i agree..
gov for selling a monoply (idiots!!!!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad: )a
and not being pro-active to push broadband in ire
and eircom for overpricing!! and abusing there Monoply
absolute Insult!!
:mad: :mad: :mad:

Urban Weigl

Originally posted by Verb
At the end of the day, Eircom is trying to make money, it is a business.

Eircom isn't just trying to make money, they're trying to harvest us like a crop of potatoes. And then they top it all off with a 2x the amount of employees they need, meaning that at the end of the day, their cost-base is much higher. I think I read that Eircom's employee per telephone line ratio is something like the 3rd highest in the world. It's disgusting.

I still blame the Irish Government in the end however. They should have seen this coming.

mike65

The government once controlled eircom, sold it back to the people
who already owned it, made a ton and then sat back as it
imploded so they have to take the lions share of the blame going...

Thank god when I bought shares I did it as a bit of fun
and could afford the losses...

Mike.