The British Isles

Battlejuice

I don't mean to be stirring but I really need closure, once and for all, on whether Ireland is still part of the British Isles or not.
I have discussed this at length with a number of people and have rarely reached a satisfactory outcome.
I have often heard the argument that it is "just a geographical term", and not a political term and yerra sure what harm it's just a name.
Well Geography is political, and I believe identity is strongly linked with this issue. It would seem to make sense prior to independence but not now.
In the modern political theatre, the only groups who use this term tend to be the Unionists in Northern Ireland or certain Tories. I have never heard British Labour Ministers use the term as they appreciate it is considered to be offensive to those living in the Republic of Ireland. I have heard them use the term "these islands" a fair bit.
So, is Ireland still part of the British Isles??

sceptre

Battlejuice wrote:

So, is Ireland still part of the British Isles??

It is if you think it is, it isn't if you think it isn't. None of the alternative terms seem to have caught on, even the "Anglo-Celtic Isles" which is probably the best of a mostly bad or inaccurate bunch. As you note the old term has effectively been officially deprecated by both governments and is used rather less by everyone else and has substantially lost usage even without a popular alternative popping up.

Two things of note: the British didn't coin the term - Pliny effectively did and it was used outside the island of Britain commonly before it was used there - and the specific term "British Islands" is a legal term used in the UK (almost strictly in legal terms, it hasn't caught on in general use either) since 1978 (see the Interpretation Act of that year) to refer specifically to the UK (all of it) plus the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. And Rockall.

You're looking for definite closure, I can at least definitely tell you that you're definitely not going to get it. The term isn't liked by quite a few Scottish, Welsh and Cornish people either. Periwinkles on Rockall haven't given any opinion on the matter at all.

Personally I've got less of a problem than some as the term didn't originally refer to any claim of ownership when originally used. Having said that, although I don't find myself looking for a term to describe the area we're living in all that much when it has to include both islands I'd probably use "Britain and Ireland" or "Ireland and Britain", innacurate as it might be in that it doesn't include any of the smaller islands. I reckon "Anglo-Celtic Isles" sounds like some contrived PC term that I'm too lazy to learn and use. I also demand the right to use "British Isles" if I feel like it without someone objecting to it loudly in a tosser way. Sometimes recognition is more important than accuracy which is why I'll also use "Persian Gulf" if I like, though I'm more likely to actually use that one.

Battlejuice

Thanks for that Sceptre.
I can see your point in using the term out of convenience to refer to the islands of Britain and Ireland. I'm just surprised that there isn't a conclusive term used globally. Surely there is a definite legal term which would be referred to by Cartographers before they put a label on anything.
It does seem that the term is lazily referred to instead of used in a provocative manner.
I've no doubt that a lot of people in both countries dislike the term and would rather not use it but that still doesn't make it incorrect. Incidentally, has anyone asked the periwinkles about it?
Basically I feel the need to be a total gob****e and pontificate that Ireland (at least the Republic) is no longer part of the British Isles because of some act or international clause. If that isn't the case and if it is accepted that it is the legally correct term that'll at least help me move on and sleep a little more soundly, if slightly disappointed. Surely the term 'British Isles' is used in either the Statute of the Republic of Ireland or Britain?
I don't see it along the same lines as politically charged terms such as Northern Ireland (which I understand is the internationally used term for the six counties/province/the north), although I appreciate that I would need to be very careful as to how I refer to it in certain company.

vector

The "British Isles" is a legimate geographical term, meaning the Islands of Great Britain and Ireland (and the small islands off each like the Isle of Man, Achill Islands etc...) It is a useful term when speaking to a EU audience to distinguish "us" from "mainland europe" or "the contenent"

However, speaking politically I would avoid using the term unless it was absolutely necessary as it could sound pro-British (and one would like to sound impartial)

RuggieBear

Much like the "Irish Sea", "the British Isles" is geographical nomer and i have absolutely no qualms using it

LordSutch

The Geographical term 'British isles' is the term given to these 6000 (approx) islands lying off the North West coast of Brittany or Bretagne in historical terms, hence Britain or Great Britain meaning BIG Brittany!

Because the island of Bretagne (Britain) was the largest island in Europe the people of the time then decided to name all the surrounding islands as the British isles (proximity to Brittany) and the name has been with us ever since, irrespective of who or what people have been in power, the British isles includes the island of Ireland, the island of Britain, the Isle of Man, the Channel islands, the Orkney islands + many others!


The term British isles only appears in the physical pages of an Atlas as the term is intended to convey the Geographical location of these islands on the World Globe, The term 'British isles' is not meant to be a political term, hence it will not be found in the political pages of an Atlas/ The term is meant to identify 'these islands' & not the inhabitants.

Capt'n Midnight

All we need to do is scour all the foreign atlas's to see if there are alternative names, such as the way we use iberia for spain / portugal.

Zebra3

Battlejuice wrote:

In the modern political theatre, the only groups who use this term tend to be the Unionists in Northern Ireland or certain Tories.

The only geopolitical phrase I hear unionists ever use to imply they are 'really' part of Britain (which they are not) is when they refer to Britain as 'the mainland'.

Anyway, here's what's on Wikipedia about the British Isles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_isles

LordSutch

As a metter of interest the online encyclopedia 'Wikipedia' recently added a paragraph or two about the fact that "Some people in Ireland dont like the term British Isles" & neither does the Irish foreign minister Mr Dermot Ahearn (mentioned by name, no less)!

I have since discovered that the reason for the Wikipedia (negative Irish related comments) is down to a petition actually started by a thread starter asking people to sign a petition complaining about this age old geographical term, which would then be passed on to Wikipedia !

Quite obviously the quota of negative comments was acheived & those negative comments were permanently posted on the Wikipedia site very, very recently.

Even more curious is the Front page of the Irish Times article (02nd/Oct) under the heading "Folens to Wipe British Isles off the World Map" which then quotes the Wikipedia comments (only recently petitioned & added to that site)!

My point being: This whole episode has been orchestrated by God knows who? but it has been pushed & pursued for the last eighteen months to a successful outcome? or an embarrassing farce? seeing as folens.ie will be the only Atlas printer in the World who wish to rename these islands with? still waiting...............

I rang folens yesterday to find out what the replacement name would be for this Archipelago & the Chief Editors assistant told me that the New name for 2007 would probably be 'England & Ireland' ................

I kid you not

Sand

the New name for 2007 would probably be 'England & Ireland' ................

The Scots and Welsh should have no problem with that then.