Pocket Tens on a low but nasty board

NickyOD

Southcourt last night. I'd been playing uuuuber tight during the rebuy period. I played 3 hands in 6 levels. AA, JJ and TT. and won with all of them to move my stack up to 21K (from 4K starting) after the add-on.

When the blinds got up to 500/1000 I had 17K after posting the Big blind. UTG who hadn't been very active up to now raised to 3000 UTG. It was folded around to the SB who calls and I smooth call in the BB with 2 black Tens.

The flop is 357 all diamonds. SB checks, I check to the preflop raiser who bets just 2000. I'm certain this now means he does not have a hand better than TT or made flush. The SB calls. I don't have a read on the SB.

What's my move?

Imposter

What's the average stack? How quick are the blinds (num Hands/level )? What sort of a stack has the SB?

kencleary

Well its either push or fold. Too many nasty possible turn cards 4 6 another diamond, overcards etc, to smooth call and given the stack sizes versus the pot size any moderate raise is likely to be called.

There's 13k in the pot now. Small Blind could have made a flush but equally that 2k call could simply indicate two non-diamond overcards. On balance i'd push here. If you take down the pot well and good, if you run into a made flush shrug and move on.

ntlbell

NickyOD wrote:

Southcourt last night. I'd been playing uuuuber tight during the rebuy period. I played 3 hands in 6 levels. AA, JJ and TT. and won with all of them to move my stack up to 21K (from 4K starting) after the add-on.

When the blinds got up to 500/1000 I had 17K after posting the Big blind. UTG who hadn't been very active up to now raised to 3000 UTG. It was folded around to the SB who calls and I smooth call in the BB with 2 black Tens.

The flop is 357 all diamonds. SB checks, I check to the preflop raiser who bets just 2000. I'm certain this now means he does not have a hand better than TT or made flush. The SB calls. I don't have a read on the SB.

What's my move?

Have you been sat at the same table as SB and UTG from the start?
I would be more worried about the SB here and definitley don't want eithier of them to see anymore cards.

Happy with my table image, I push.

Rodge

A tough fold but for me its still a fold. The hands you could realistally be facing are Adiamonds high kicker - UTG, High pocket pair (possibly with the flush draw) - UTG. SB could have anything but must have some form of draw (possibly the str8 and flush) or made hand to be flat calling. Facing these holdings you have to be a big dog in this spot.

You have 15K left after calling the raise, I dont think it is desperate enough to warrant a push here.

ianmc38

Well there's absolutely no way that you just flat call.

For me I'm always slightly worried by small bets on a 1 suited flop as the "milking" alarm bells start ringing. I think I would fold this one. The other thing I'd consider would be to raise to 7k. I think a 5k raise is a good feeler bet. I don't think he'd call a 5k raise with a flush draw. Any call or reraise and I'd be out of there. However, if it pays off it's a great move. If not then you're left shortstacked. I don't think moving all-in would be a good move as then you're asking for trouble. That said if your feeler bet turns bad then you're left shortstacked with high blinds and you'll need to double within a couple of rounds...

Culchie

Gotta say I don't like the smell of this Nicky.

I don't like the smooth call preflop, you have left yourself in limbo land, should have tested him with a re-raise and see where you stood, or preferably fold.

I'd fold no question.

My only caveat to this is if UTG is shortstacked.

Washout

preflop i would have also tested the water with a raise.

But now that the flop is done and hes only in for 2k I cannot rule out the AKd or at least the Ad with flush draw

but the read on the SB is even more worrying. has he flopped a set is the question id be asking myself?
also what are their stack sizes like?

Id be inclined to fold but i get the feeling you didnt and took the pot down

Imposter

Imposter wrote:

What's the average stack? How quick are the blinds (num Hands/level )? What sort of a stack has the SB?

If you are a shortstack - push
If the blinds are about to get out of control - push
If the SB has a small stack - push if you think UTG will fold (or he has a small stack too), if not fold.
If the SB has a medium stack (assuming medium is similar to yours) - fold
If the SB has a large stack then i'm not sure but probably push.

mewso

Assuming you are up against weak opposition I like the smooth call pre-flop. If anyone ever managed to measure it I am positive most money lost to bad players is probably pre-flop. Bad players tend to only let hands go when the flop spells it out for them that they have nothing.
Post flop I agree you should push. It's as good a time as any to make that critical move for the win.

Duff Man Jr.

Agh, i'm biting my tounge......

NickyOD

Imposter wrote:

What's the average stack? How quick are the blinds (num Hands/level )? What sort of a stack has the SB?

Sorry yes that would be helpful. UTG has same as me. SB has me covered. Average stack is about 13K. Blinds are 20 minutes. top 9 get paid. 30 players left.

Washout

so what happened tell tell tell

Marq

I think that Nicky is correct to smoth call pre-flop. Any meaningful raise will likely commit him to the hand. Now at least he has the oppurtunity to get away from it. If the stacks were deeper I think that a raise would be the optimum play.

ntlbell

NickyOD wrote:

Sorry yes that would be helpful. UTG has same as me. SB has me covered. Average stack is about 13K. Blinds are 20 minutes. top 9 get paid. 30 players left.

With this info I think you have to fold with only 30 left and your well above the average stack it might not be worth the risk of pushing I'm sure you'll find better places to get it in than here.

But I'm not one for listening to my own sensible advice so I'd be pushing!!!

Lex

I reckon ur ahead at the moment alright with the bet out from the pre-flop raiser being a (weak) continuation as it was checked into him. Prob is tho, chances are you're up against a big Diamond with one of those players and obv aonther D spells catastrophy.
Depends on what ur read on these players is and their stack size is I suppose i.e. either push or fold? and If you push:
1. Are they short-stacked and likely to need to gamble on that 4th diamond coming
2. Have they enough chips to be able to afford to call you on a draw.

A call is out I think beacuse if a D falls on the turn you'll have to check/fold to any bet.
And if the turn isn't a diamond ur out of position to try and glean any other info from the raiser behind you so you still wont know where you stand without loosing more chips to see the river.

Saying that tho, there is 13k in the pot so its a tricky one!

What happened?? Do tell!!!

NickyOD

kencleary wrote:

Well its either push or fold. Too many nasty possible turn cards 4 6 another diamond, overcards etc, to smooth call and given the stack sizes versus the pot size any moderate raise is likely to be called.

There's 13k in the pot now. Small Blind could have made a flush but equally that 2k call could simply indicate two non-diamond overcards. On balance i'd push here. If you take down the pot well and good, if you run into a made flush shrug and move on.

Great minds think alike Ken. So we both would have busted.

Its got to be a push or fold. Unless UTG has flopped a flush here he has played his hand horribly. If he had taken a free card I could have gotten away from this hand. I read UTG to have AK with one diamond. The SB call really had me worried so I should have been speach playing him and not UTG. I was 90% sure UTG would fold when I pushed and after much deliberation UTG folded. Nice fookin' read nicky!! SB calls with A9 of diamonds for the nuts. NICKY YOU ASS!!!!

On balance I think it was the right move. Because UTG made such a small flop bet SB's range is huge, but I'm pissed off I didn't try to geta read ont he SB instead of concentrating on UTG. If I'd had a bigger stack I'd have let it go.

Thanksfully I still made a profit last night by busting out the bounty player and getting €200 credit for Boylespoker and getting 2nd in a STT for €150.

Culchie

Guys can we tease this out a little more.

I think the smooth call with 10 10 put Nicky in this tight spot. Going on the info he gave, I think I would have folded pre-flop. Too Tight some might say, but sometimes you lay down the best cards, and he has 17BB, and I don't like the smell of this at all.

2nd to my preferred option .... Given the fact he decided he was going to play, I think a re-raise would have better defined the hand. Unless he hit his 3rd 10 , he was always going to be left in limbo land with this hand after the flop.

The smooth call pre-flop is my least preferred option.


Opinions?

ianmc38

I agree, i dont see any advantage in smooth calling with pocket 10s preflop in this situation. Based on the average stack I'd probably lay it down preflop. Limping in here isn't gaining any advantage. I think a reraise is the only way to get involved in this hand if you want to play it. As i said earlier that small milking bet has flush written all over it, so I'd have got the hell outta dodge. I'm sure everyone will have different ops on this one though...

ianmc38

Culchie wrote:

2nd to my preferred option .... Given the fact he decided he was going to play, I think a re-raise would have better defined the hand. Unless he hit his 3rd 10 , he was always going to be left in limbo land with this hand after the flop.

Opinions?

Exactly, no point in limping here.

Rodge

I think in this case it would be very hard to push all in or reraise pre flop. You're looking at an UTG raiser and a flat call from the SB. Seems pretty daunting to me and makes them 10's look a lot smaller. If you push and get called by both players then at least 9/10 times you will need to improve to win the pot.

But then again a fold is way too weak and tight when you only have 17 BB's.

Seems to me that the only option is to flat call and at the slightest whiff of trouble drop em.

My own impressions of Nicky (based on the several thousand HH's I have read of his ) is that he isnt a passive player that flat calls a lot so to say he did in this scenario must have been because of the alarm bells.

Shortstack

I concur. Tens are not powerful enough to smooth call a pre-flop raise when the nlinds are at this level. You should either raise or fold pre-flop. I would have shoved to take the 6k but I can be overly aggressive at times.

ianmc38

Seems to me that the only option is to flat call and at the slightest whiff of trouble drop em.

I don't like this play because I think any board that has a J+, pair or possible flopped flush(like happened) is what I'd call a whiff of trouble with pocket 10s. Therefore the play has lost you a decent number of chips. With 30 players left and a stack well above the average i don't think a preflop fold is too tight here.

Culchie

Rodge wrote:

But then again a fold is way too weak and tight when you only have 17 BB's.

17 BB's is still very comfortable at this stage of tourney when blinds are 500/1000, when he calls he is throwing away 2 more BB's unless he hits the miracle flop.

An UTG raise from a rock, smooth called by SB, which meant he was prepared to invest 2500 into the pot.....I smell trouble.

Besides if UTG is such a rock, it's his BB next !

Hectorjelly

Preflop, smooth calling and reraising all in are both fine. Smooth calling gives you the chance to actually use your poker skill to win sometimes when you would of lost, get away easier when your beaten and not race your chips against AK if an ace or king flops. On the negative side you will sometimes get drawn out on by hands like KQ and AJ that couldnt of called a reraise. I think folding is out of the question.

There is no way Im pushing on that flop after a flat call, its a bad idea in general to push in situations where you are likely to be drawing dead if you are called. (without a read) Call and reevaluate on the turn or fold. The bet was small. Calling is the lost art of no limit hold em

NickyOD

I think Culchie might be right. Folding preflop is not a bad play here at all. I think reraising is wreckless becaise I'm racing at best against UTG. He hasn't been very active so far so he has either been getting hands like feet or he is a tight player. Basically I wanted avoid a race or worse situation by getting a read on him postflop. It worked but unfortunately the SB woke up with a hand but to be honest I think I'm gona lose to UTG here too often to justify either calling or reraising. Postflop I'm unhappy with how I played it though.

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

Preflop, smooth calling and reraising all in are both fine. Smooth calling gives you the chance to actually use your poker skill to win sometimes when you would of lost, get away easier when your beaten and not race your chips against AK if an ace or king flops. On the negative side you will sometimes get drawn out on by hands like KQ and AJ that couldnt of called a reraise. I think folding is out of the question.

There is no way Im pushing on that flop after a flat call, its a bad idea in general to push in situations where you are likely to be drawing dead if you are called. (without a read) Call and reevaluate on the turn or fold. The bet was small. Calling is the lost art of no limit hold em

hehe. Seems like a lot of good players have diffeering opinions of how to play TT out of position. I really hated this spot. My mistake was focusing on getting UTG to fold. I have no idea why I wasn't as worried about the SB as I should have been. We live and learn.

ntlbell

Culchie wrote:

17 BB's is still very comfortable at this stage of tourney when blinds are 500/1000, when he calls he is throwing away 2 more BB's unless he hits the miracle flop.

An UTG raise from a rock, smooth called by SB, which meant he was prepared to invest 2500 into the pot.....I smell trouble.

Besides if UTG is such a rock, it's his BB next !

I don't think many would disagree with you culchie that if we're taken the hand back pre-flop then maybe the smooth call was a bad idea, raise from a solid rock, and a call from the SB 10 10 doesn't look that strong anymore.

He didn't re-raise pre-flop so this is the situation we're left with, and I think he had to push, if his read was correct the rock had AK and it was just a continuation bet, then he knew was taken him out with a push which only left the SB I'm just suprised that nicky said he didn't try harder to get a read on the SB if he was so sure about the rock's AK.

Waylander

I don't have a problem with the call preflop here. It allows you to gather information from the flop. I am not saying I would have made the correct decision with that flop, I am not sure what I would do, but on another flop that had an A or K it would be an easy fold, if that flop had been rainbow, I would have pushed.

Jaden

I went over this hand in my head to see how I'd play it. It's a doozie. Flat calling on the flop doesn't sit well with me, although several posts have offered good reasons to do it. Pocket 10s are played for set value, you realistically need to hit yer set to win, unless you can shove people off pots on scary flops that everyone else misses. I would have let this go pre-flop, there are two tight players willing to duke it out - your 10s can't be ahead of both. Think of QQ, if you smooth call a pre-flop raise with them, 3 handed, and an Ace comes with no Q, you can be sure that you're probably going to have to let it go. Smooth calling 10's is the same situation, with more cards that screw you. You have a healthy stack, let them go.

The only alternative is to push pre-flop with them - that would have pushed the A9 suited off, they would figure they are up against >JJ or a better ace. Semi bluff really.

Interesting thread.

hotspur

I think the preflop call is slightly suboptimal at this stage with the small blind along for the ride, I think you should have pushed. To be honest not pushing with 10's with no board, and then pushing with a board of 3 diamonds and both other players having declared an interest on the flop is a DOH! moment. I think a lay down on the flop is correct. Committing another third of your stack in raising to find out where you are would be horrible, especially as the hand that will beat you will just flat call anyway, and then you might convince yourself he is drawing to the nut Pushing all in is suicidal as you haven't got a notion if either player flopped the nuts, neither needs the nuts to beat you, and you may well get a call from Ad K anyway to hit. Personally I've made this mistake loads of times on a single suited flop

wayfarer

Check out the second hand Lee Watkinson writes about in this article, it deals with some of the same problems as this hand:

http://www.bluffmagazine.com/Magazine/2005_08_88.asp