REAL action that will hurt ISPs

Chaos-Engine

How about Irelandoffline and its subscribes and the boards alike form a Non-profit Dial-up ISP... We could make an ISP for the geeks by the geeks... We could cover costs and all profits could goto Irelandoffline future campaigns.... I am no good and number crunching but i am guessing that if we were a purly Dial-up low rate ISP we could just about cover costs and undercut all current offers.... Perhaps a offpeak Nolimits style service also(with sustainable numbers)

This is just an Idea but it is probably the most affective one... That way Eircom, Esat and co will lose all its MAJOR subscribers(us).....

I maybe mad but u know I'm Right

I'm not asking Irelandoffline to do this but maybe some off u Comp Sci students in 4th year would like a project to start up next year


Think about it.... OUR OWN ISP
And one day if LLU goes forward(as if) then we could perhaps have ADSL

Bard

a phrase that springs to mind when you mention a "non-profit dial-up ISP" is... "NOT COMMERCIALLY VIABLE"...

maybe I've just been hearing that phrase too much lately :rolleyes:

Chaos-Engine

Originally posted by Bard
a phrase that springs to mind when you mention a "non-profit dial-up ISP" is... "NOT COMMERCIALLY VIABLE"...

maybe I've just been hearing that phrase too much lately :rolleyes:

Commercial Viablity is for companies in search of profits

Our ISP wouldn't exist for profit
It would exist to exclude the telcos and to serve its users....

We won't have shareholders... Just trustees

dahamsta

This kind of thing has been brought up in a roundabout manner, with the community <strike>wireless</strike> WAN's (A WAN *is* wireless, adam, you dork!). Which I think would be the only way to do it really, because I think Eircom would simply refuse to deal with you (or at least make a good effort to scupper the project at every turn). As someone has mentioned here before, it's not like we're in the US, where it's much easier to do this sort of thing.

If you're serious about it though, it's not the kind of thing that can be resolved on the Internet, at least not initially. You would need to sit genuinely interested people - some of whom would need to be technically knowledgeable - around a table and fight out the pro's, the con's, the possibilities and the impossibilities. You'd also need a permanent staff, and you'd need to pay them reasonably well.

I'd love to organise a non-profit WAN in Cork meself, but I can't see the interest lasting long enough to implement it.

adam

Bard

Originally posted by Chaos-Engine


Commercial Viablity is for companies in search of profits

... or for companies in search of not making a loss.

I'm skeptical about it... that's all.

After all- aren't politicians supposed to be the same? Working for the common good and not just sitting on their ar$es making fat wads of moolah?

Such an ISP would become very popular very quickly and would have a huge customer base in no time. If it can handle such a demand, that would make it quite a big and powerful ISP.

Power corrupts.

Lucutus

Originally posted by dahamsta
<strike>wireless</strike> WAN's (A WAN *is* wireless, adam, you dork!)
<snip>
adam

WAN - Wide Area Network

And they weren't always wireless, YOU dork.

Muppetry Abounds.

Lucutus

Bard

Originally posted by Lucutus:

WAN - Wide Area Network

And they weren't always wireless, YOU dork.

Muppetry Abounds.

Lucutus

Er... yeah... correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Adam (dahamsta) calling himself a dork?

No matter how long you've been keeping an eye on this particular forum, Luc, for your first post here, you could be a bit more constructive, eh?...

chill, y'all---

dahamsta

1) That's the second time I've made that mistake on boards.ie. Will I never learn?

2) Yes, I was in fact calling myself a dork, which Lucutus would have realised if he had read my message properly.

3) Lucutus, I don't give a damn whether you're an administrator or not, if you're not going to read the message properly, mind your goddamn business, ok?

adam

Matfinn

Lads ease off on the oul tension there. Im not telling you what to do its just my piece of useless advice;)

If there is tension between users on these boards then that may undermine or legitimicy as a viable organisation. Im not pointing the finger at you Adam, infact I'm just saying this to everyone. To be seen as a strong group campaigning for broadband, we must stand together.

Thats my bit anyway.

Gluck

Matt

Chaos-Engine

Originally posted by Matfinn
Lads ease off on the oul tension there. Im not telling you what to do its just my piece of useless advice;)

If there is tension between users on these boards then that may undermine or legitimicy as a viable organisation. Im not pointing the finger at you Adam, infact I'm just saying this to everyone. To be seen as a strong group campaigning for broadband, we must stand together.

Thats my bit anyway.

Gluck

Matt

Well said Matt... Keep the Flamin and bitchin in After Hours lads

Bard

No tension would mean we're not frustrated ... which we are. This is, by it's very nature, a tense and potentially explosive forum. If the telco's see from this that we're annoyed and frustrated, all the better.

What you say about standing together is not a bad point, but arguments are natural in such a forum, - and CONSTRUCTIVE arguments can only serve to help us further define and copperfasten our policies, etc. and therefore are WELCOME. Our forum has played host to some great arguments and debates in it's time and long may that last.

That said, flames or offensive posts are not welcome here...

naturally.

--

now... let's get back on topic, please! :rolleyes:

jmcc

Originally posted by Chaos-Engine
How about Irelandoffline and its subscribes and the boards alike form a Non-profit Dial-up ISP... We could make an ISP for the geeks by the geeks... We could cover costs and all profits could goto Irelandoffline future campaigns.... I am no good

I like the logic - a Non-profit ISP with the excess profits going to IrelandOffline.

Running any sort of ISP is not an easy thing. Most ISPs lose money and have to make ends meet by either offering hosting or leased lines. It is not the kind of thing to be entrusting to fourth year comp-sci students because despite all their good intentions, it requires a: net/computer expertise; b: business expertise and c: the willingness to lose a lot of money before ever making a profit.

A few Wireless WANs seem to be better ideas and may have more of a chance of survival. Since Eircom is not the only leased line supplier now, other providers could be approached. The other aspect is that a telco licence would be required (since resale is effectively involved) as part of the new unlicenced Wireless terms. However it may be worth getting an opinion to see if the operation could be set up in such a way that anyone joining such an wISP would effectively be part of the company and thus it would not really be resale to the public. Legally it could be a minefield but if it worked, it would be nice.

Regards...jmcc

Lemming

Originally posted by Bard


... or for companies in search of not making a loss.

Such an ISP would become very popular very quickly and would have a huge customer base in no time. If it can handle such a demand, that would make it quite a big and powerful ISP.

Power corrupts.

Well said Bard! ALthough since the ISP would be only to cater for those users alientated by Esat & Eircom, and as Bard has rightly pointed out the popularity of such an ISP, what would happen if MORE people started to join up, rapidly? Would an ESAT-letter-style thing happen there in order to cope with demand?? Would limits need to be set in place??

Not meaning to stick the boot in, but lets not also forget that hardware (expensive hardware at that) for such a venture has to come from somewhere!! So where's the funding gonna come from for that?

jaarius

Originally posted by jmcc


The other aspect is that a telco licence would be required (since resale is effectively involved) as part of the new unlicenced Wireless terms. However it may be worth getting an opinion to see if the operation could be set up in such a way that anyone joining such an wISP would effectively be part of the company and thus it would not really be resale to the public. Legally it could be a minefield but if it worked, it would be nice.

Regards...jmcc

nit picking at the start will only weaken resolve. on the point of finance couldnt sponsorship be used? getting some hardware company to give folk some hw and the ISP could say they're wonderful. another thing. would it not be better to start on a kind of test area (not dublin... too big) like cork:D , galway or an area within dublin and see if its viable. this kind of thing would impress folk(if it worked) who may support it on a national level.


j

infomat

Before I begin I need to explain that I have little experience in this area so I am really only looking for ideas at this stage. However, I would be willing to become involved in any sensible project.

Assuming that I can get ADSL I need to install a Wireless Network (WLAN) and have just started investigating what equipment to get.

Recently I met a friend who has set up a network (in the USA) using Buffalo Airstation equipment and he claims that by using an external antenna (described below) he has managed to network with a number of friends thus giving them all access to a high speed lease line.

An IEEE 802.11 Wireless LAN would not require a licence (see notice issued by ODTR) and in theory it should be possible to setup such a network for a group of people living within a small compact area. The main technical problem would be locating the lease lines and the external equipment but the financial arrangements could be more complicated.

I believe that a much faster version of IEEE 802.11 is due in the near future.


Buffalo Technology is proud to introduce the AirStation which allows you easy, seamless and secure connectivity to your existing Wired LAN as well as the Internet! Using the new 2.4GHz IEEE802.11b wireless standard, the AirStation Wireless LAN gives you increased speed and mobility. The application is from Internet sharing in the home to wireless network access from one's conference room. It even has the ability to communicate with the PC and MAC simultaneously!
The AirStation utilises the leading edge 11Mbps Wireless technology and a Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum (DSSS) transmission method. This provides you the very latest Wireless LAN technology at a price that rivals Wired LAN systems. the PCMCIA-Card and client connection ensures easy wireless access to the AirStation access point, and the 11(US) channel broadcast platform, provides easy scalability and network load management.
The AirStation is the most fully-featured, secure and easy-to-use wireless LAN on the market and it's backed by a two-year limited warranty.



The external outdoor directional Antenna for (11Mbps Wireless LAN) AirStation. This antenna connects to the AirStation Access Point extending the range of your wireless network environment.
The outdoor antennas for 2.4GHz wireless communication devices that may be used to communicate between buildings or point-to-point are introduced. The main characteristics are:
 Elevation angle can be changed.
 Low weight.
 Frequency range of 2412-2462MHz (1~11ch).
 Applications are for 1:1communication or 1:N communication.
 Range is 3km (@2Mbps) and 1.5km (@11Mbps) depending on the environment.

====================
Etain Doyle, Telecoms Regulator today ( Tuesday 4th September 2001) confirmed that she will permit the provision of short range public access services in the 2.4GHz and 5GHZ bands using technologies which are exempt from licensing under the Wireless Telegraphy Acts. The Regulator also announced that the ODTR is to conduct a full review of the Fixed Wireless Access in Ireland with a view to licensing further FWA spectrum.

Chaos-Engine

I am aware about all the 1)expensess, 2)the knowledge required and of course the all important 3)Rules and regs....

1) Cost: This is the only thing we have to use the subscribtion fees for. Costs will include: Hardware, License fees, Renting the Large Bandwidth , employees(most should be aware of the risk and should be apart of IOFFL or its support groupies), and a whole lot more. Profit is not going to come. If it does we can really laugh at the telcos....

Basically we will offer a affordable package.
-Flat-rate dial-up,
-ISDN if u already have a line installed,
-ADSL if your line is compatable.
I say this as Technicans and tech call outs are far too expensive to offer. The Flat-rate fee would be alot higher than Nolimits. Perhaps €40 - €50 per month with a 6hrs-12hrs?(just a first offer. Discuse-) a day Online Limit.

Alot of the cost could be incured by sponsorship(grrr i hate it lol). We could do a deal with a few Web Design, Domain registry services, Hosting services, Software Development and SME Comp firms. Simply they pay a certain agreed fee to be recommanded by us and maybe 10% off for each customer. This i think would be very popular and these businesses would boost alot of sales by being in this deal...
Main RULE: No pushy marketing

2) Who would run it? There are alot of knowledgable ppl on this forum. Large numbers of technical staff wouldn't be required full time. So would would just need some part-time and spare-time commitment from most the staff. Only about 6 dedicated Techies woudl be required. Sale ppl wouldn't at all be required. Word of month would be enough. Some admin staff could carry out the work in getting new customers connected. Customer Services (no dedicated phone support). Just Emails and quiry calls to a LoCall number.
Alot of setting up the ISP and running it will be excellent for gaining experience. If we don't have the experience(technical) it can be learned along the way. The only experienced individuals we would require are those that have run Non-profit succesful community companies in the past

3)Rules and Regs:
Basically it isn't OPEN for all. There will be a number of priority customers.
i) Top is the NOLimits or Former Nolimits customer
ii) Medium-use SME's that can't get broadband affordable
iii) Most ppl in this forum(High levels of filtering will take place)
iv) If the infrastructure allows, we could admit customers for the public(hehe)....

The key msg here is that we won't do like other ISPs and open the flood gates. You need to be on the members list to get in. .
We will calculate the Demand(definitly going to be in excess).
Then the INfrastructure and amount of customers we can sustain.
Then keep it sustainable....

No free Entry.

Well thats main rant over for the moment. Got to hit the shower and cool down

Gavin

Now this is the sort of stuff that really annoys me. This Elitist Bull****. Only certain people will be 'allowed' to connect. 'I' will judge if their needs are sufficient.. blah blah blah... Crap.

Wireless WAN's have been talked to death, here, on net/comms and on the dublin-WAN email list. The information is all available. What sort of equipment, costs, availability, legality etc.. What we need is for people to get the equipment and start connecting to each other. Publish all the required information and allow others to connect to the network.

Attempting to set up a traditional ISP is unfeasable. Money will still have to be payed to eircom. The work takes expertise. Which takes a lot of money. money, money, money....

Attempting to setup an independant irish network is however, extremely feasable.

Gav

jaarius

while i dont think 'opening the flood gates' would be wise i also think that the following IS a bit elitist.


3)Rules and Regs:
Basically it isn't OPEN for all. There will be a number of priority customers.
i) Top is the NOLimits or Former Nolimits customer
ii) Medium-use SME's that can't get broadband affordable
iii) Most ppl in this forum(High levels of filtering will take place)
iv) If the infrastructure allows, we could admit customers for the public(hehe)....

i do understand that this couldnt be be open to everyone 'day one'. there are however those who like to play net games and are heavy users but do fit these criteria.


j