Advice on surveyor...

Cuauhtemoc

Hi
Am looking to buy an old cottage in need of renovation in wicklow.
Just wondering would there be surveyors who specialise in checking these or would any do.
I did ring up one company and they wanted over 700 to do it. Is that the average price.
The other issue is a planning one. The seller built a new bungalow nearby and as a condition of planning they had to knock this cottage. Now the esate agent has said that this is now void as there is a 5 year limit on the condition to knock it down. The planning was from 7 years ago.
Anyone know if this 5 year thing is a general planning law?
I rang the planning office who were spectacularly unhelpful. Basically put it writing or we can't help. I'm sure the cottage would be sold long before we got a reply.
Anyway thanks in advance if anyone has any info.

C.

Thomond Pk

I would get an architect with a track record in conservation projects as they would be better to advise on options; Surveyors are good for most properties and particularly when market condions vs damp levels are the issue.

muffler

Get out the yellow pages and ring round a few surveyors for prices. Make sure you get a building surveyor/architect/technician and not the estate agent type surveyor.

Be very careful about the cottage. The bottem line is that the planning conditions have not been complied with. I'm not sure of the time scale in relation to enforcing planning conditions but there may well be a statutory bar on the local authority preventing them from instigating any legal proceedings for the demolition of the cottage.

The cottage in its present form is basically un-authorised and if you ever decided that you needed to apply for planning permission to reconstruct or extend the cottage then the council would refuse permission.

I dont think its a case of the planning staff being unhelpful. I would say they do not wish to make any comment on the matter until they would have time to check out the history involved. In fact you were probably given the right advice. Put in writing (pre-planning enquiry) and let them state their case in writing.

It may take a wee bit of time but if you phone the planner for that area and
tell them your situation I,m sure they will try and accommodate you ASAP.

In a nutshell I think you are looking at bother

OMcGovern

Cuauhtemoc wrote:

Now the esate agent has said that this is now void as there is a 5 year limit on the condition to knock it down.

Do not... under any circumstances trust the estate agent.
You are not paying them.... they get paid by the seller.
Anything they say to you is not legally binding.

Sounds like you're looking for a bargain, but it could be the biggest nightmare of your life.

1. It was basically condemned by the authorities already... and ordered to be demolished.
2. The building society/bank will survey it, and may say they're not putting any money against it. Or, they'll add conditions to your mortgage that you have to obey. Eg. rewire the place, replace plumbing etc. The banks want a house that can be sold to cover your mortgage if needed. They want security of their loan to you. They won't "risk" huge sums of money on a derelict house "with great potential". ( which is estate agent language for needing enormous amounts of work and investment )
3. If you don't have any family or friends in the building trade, then this is going to be real expensive to renovate / rebuild. There will always, always, always be at least twice the amount of work and cost that you expect.

I bought a 30 year old house in Gorey as my first house.
The kitchen floor collapsed, electrics needed rewiring, external soffits needed replacing, etc, etc, etc. And an old geyser was living there before me.
So it sounds like it was in better condition than your potential purchase.
The reality of "doing up" houses is scary if you really haven't done it before.
It'll become like a second job to you... really run you down.

regards,
Owen

Victor

Get professional advice. That €700 may be worth €70,000 to you.

Cuauhtemoc wrote:

Now the esate agent has said that this is now void as there is a 5 year limit on the condition to knock it down. The planning was from 7 years ago.

There was a five year limit for enforcement, but thats been changed for 2-3 years. I don't remember what it is now, but its somewhere in the 7-10 year bracket.

I rang the planning office who were spectacularly unhelpful.

Welcome to Wicklow C.C.

jhegarty

Victor wrote:

Get professional advice. That €700 may be worth €70,000 to you. There was a five year limit for enforcement, but thats been changed for 2-3 years. I don't remember what it is now, but its somewhere in the 7-10 year bracket.

Welcome to Wicklow C.C.

its 7 years now... but that doesn't mean they won't get p***d off and reject your application for anything you need on the site (septic tank,garden wall...etc...)

Cuauhtemoc

Thanks for the replies.
Have done further investigation since. Managed to find the original planning application for the new house which involved or had the condition to knock this one down. Was on the wicklow coco website. Quite useful to see who's doing what in your neighbourhood.
The original app was made 10 years ago to build the new bungalow but i've had to request the file as the cc don't keep apps that old onsite and the online version has limited info on it and doesn't list the conditions.
Not looking for a bargain(well i suppose everyone is to some extent) and this isn't cheap, or to renovate and sell on. Looking for what will be a family home and i'm local to the area which they are quite fussy over.
The cottage is fairly sound(as much as i can say without a surveyor) the walls are a meter thick, no cracks visible. the roof is inact with no leaks, there's a septic tank onsite. Electricity was supplied(not recently though). And it seems to meet the conditions listed in the wicklow county development plan for restoring an old cottage. All in all it's in pretty good shape given its age. Great location and views and would be in keeping with the houses nearby.

In fairness to the council when i rang up again witht the file number the person i spoke to was very helpful. There is a five year limit on these conditions and a seven year limit on enforcements. So what they said was that the orginal conditions can't be enforced...but(there's always one) she said unless the conditions in the planning app specifically said a timeframe of 10 years or a period longer than the 5 and 7 year exemptions.

So might have a clearer picture when the plan arrives.

muffler

keep us posted on how you get on with the planning issues

Cuauhtemoc

Update so far.
Got the planning file. There was no condition to have to knock cottage which is good.
My next question is based on the 40 Sq meter planning exemption. If you look at the picture below of the cottage ignoring the outbuildings at top left.
There is an outbuilding attached to the cottage at the bottom right of picture.
Its the bit with the corrugated roof. Now half that corrugated roof area nearest the tiled roof is an actual room in the cottage. The half nearest the bottom right is an outbuilding. no doorway through from main cottage.
It's pretty solid, built of granite. Just wondering how it would fit into renovation.

The 40sqm exemption applies to building to rear and various other restrictions. How would this be treated.
Would it have to be change of use planning permission?
Or could i just put a door on it and call it part of the cottage?
Also would building directly behind it be ok for the exempted extension?

On the topic of extensions does anyone know of any reasonably priced architects in the wicklow area. Forking out 10k or so would be a sizeable chunk of the renovation/extension fund.

Thanks in advance..

Not a great pic but only one i have atm.

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/4586/outbuilding13dl.jpg


C.

muffler

Only after noticing your last post so hopefully this is not too late. (i.e. you haven't gone and paid some guy a few hundred euro for the free info given below)
There are planning leaflets you can pick up at your local planning dept. or read and/or print here: http://www.environ.ie/DOEI/doeipub.nsf/wvInfoView/559A098A4B8ACE5580256FAF00394F01?OpenDocument&Lang=en#i3

The leaflets are very good for general questions and answers and the one you should definately read is PL.5. Note that the 40 m2 exempted development relates to extending the original house to the rear by that size subject to certain conditions being complied with.

Cuauhtemoc

Thanks Muffler,

As i read it you can add 40Sqm to an exisiting building unless it was extended before(Between 1964 and now). This whole structure is pre 1964 so even if it was extended before, it was pre 1964 so we should still be able to extend the full 40sqm.

Just not sure about that room on the bottom right though. I imagine it will be treated like a garage and we'll have to get change of use permission for it.

Will contact the planners once i have some better pics of it to show them.

muffler

Cuauhtemoc wrote:

Just not sure about that room on the bottom right though. I imagine it will be treated like a garage and we'll have to get change of use permission for it.

Have a look at Q.6 in the PL5 leaflet. I think you can do both without permission.
If in doubt ring the local planning dept. and ask to speak to the planner for your area. They will assist with whatever queries you have.

If the system is anythink like here in Donegal the planners only take calls on a particular morning so you could ring in to the general office in advance and find out who you should talk to and when you can contact them

EKRIUQ

One thing I've come across in my job that a building surveyor/architect/technician might not pick up is in the OP's post they said that the sellers built a new bungalow close by. Make sure to check that both houses aren't on the same swerage or septic tank could lead to huge problems down the road I know it nearly did for me and the sale of the house.

Cuauhtemoc

Muffler, thanks for that. I don't know how many times i've read the planning conditions, but i missed that one. It's solved a lot of problems. Phase one of our conversion should require no planning permission now(we will run it by the council obviously).
BingoBongo: There is a septictank there already. But it's been there 50 odd years. We'll need a new one but it's a half acre site so we should be able to site it ok.
Still deciding on whether to sink our own well or connect to th e mains(mains being a well located on neighbours site) which seems to supply the whole area.
Our own well is my preference.

Thanks for the replies...muffler especially..how i missed that i don't know.

C.

rooferPete

Hi,

Looking at Victor's post I would fully agree with him, if the vendor is applying some pressure to get a signed contract instruct your Solicitor to include every condition in your contract and some he has never used before to buy you time.

My understanding of what was the Five Year Rule for Exemption is the local authorities have a fail safe built in to help them recover from any errors which is what the cottage still standing appears to be.

As I understand it the cottage can still stand, but any further work attempted can bring the planners back into the picture, basically a new front door would be enough to re-open the file and enforce the original planning conditions.

There are some planners who might take this particular property as a personal snub to the permission they previously granted, they now see a house that should not exist being sold and renovated using loop holes.

There are a lot of rules that apply to the exemptions today even the 40 sqm one, FWIW I would have a professional sign off on the P.P. and supply a Certificate of compliance, try to avoid The Opinion of Compliance.

Also make sure if you get a favourable certificate that the person supplying it has full professional indemnity insurance, there are times when it looks too good to be true it usually is.

Wishing you every success for the future.

muffler

rooferPete wrote:

FWIW I would have a professional sign off on the P.P. and supply a Certificate of compliance, try to avoid The Opinion of Compliance.

Trying to get someone to give a Cert. of Compliance without opinion or without reference to "substantial compliance" is like trying to find hens teeth

rooferPete

Hi Muffler,

I know the words "Opinion" and "Substantial Compliance" have become the industry standard, but from what I have heard they are soon to abolished as being acceptable as part of the legal portfolio for a property.

IMO the sooner the better.

muffler

rooferPete wrote:

but from what I have heard they are soon to abolished as being acceptable as part of the legal portfolio for a property.

Cant see it happening Pete because its a very grey area. I have yet to see a property built strictly in Full Compliance with the grant of permission.
These matters are all agreed between the RIAI and the Incorporated Law Society and there is a standard format for certificates.

There is no way on this earth that the RIAI would allow its members to issue full compliance certs and therefore leaving those members open to litigation for non compliance of something silly like a building line for a house which is supposed to be 20 metres from the centre of the road and on site it only measures 19 metres.

There always has been and in my opinion will always be a certain amount of leeway on these matters

Cuauhtemoc

Thanks RP/Muffler.

I requested the original plans from the cc and fortunately there was no official condition listed to knock down the cottage. In the outline(not sure what the term is) sketch of the property and boundaries it shows the old cottage and there is a note under it saying to be knocked as part of the new development.
That doesn't strike me as a council condition. Just part of the description of the new development.

Just waiting on signing of contracts etc now and will make sure the solicitor is aware of all this.
will keep you posted.

C.

Victor

Cuauhtemoc wrote:

That doesn't strike me as a council condition. Just part of the description of the new development.

Be very careful, because the first condition is usually that the development must be carried out in accordance with the drawings submitted.

rooferPete

Hi,

Again I would have to agree with Victor, the original plans submitted are what was applied for which in this case appears to be a replacement house.

The planner may not be duty bound to include the demolition of the cottage in the conditions because it was part of the applicants proposed development and being part of the application it could be seen as fully understood the structure was to be demolished, it may now be an unauthorised structure with all the benefits of a Pre 63 structure now removed from it.

I believe you need an expert advisor working for you who will advise your Solicitor, remember your Solicitor acts under your instruction and within acceptable limits covey your thoughts to the vendor if you thought he was trying to pull a fast one on you.

I know if that happened to me his letter would read like a cartoon where the character hits his thimb with a hammer *~#!^@ you get the picture.

Thread with caution and the best advice you can buy I would go as far as meeting with the Chief Planning Officer to clarify exactly where I stood.

Best of luck, I hope to see you over in the DIY section asking loads of questions

.

Cuauhtemoc

Thanks guys, all good advice.
I spoke to wicklow cc planning dept about the situation and they basically said there was nothing they could do as it was outside any enforceable powers they had. It may have been an unauthorised structure but i don't see how they could classify it as one now. If it could be then it could be demolished as it's unauthorised. (hope that makes sense)
Fair enough they could obstruct planning permission out of sour grapes but our initial development is planning exempt so we're not really obliged to tell them of it. We would though because there's no point in annoying them.
I'll still raise it with the solicitor and talk to the planning office again but hopefully not too many probs will arise.
Is there a detailed section in planning regs the that would refer to this type of thing? I haven't come across it in my reading.

muffler

You could have a trawl through this http://www.environ.ie/DOEI/DOEIPol.nsf/wvNavView/Planning?OpenDocument&Lang=

If the plans showed the structure was to be removed as part of the original proposal and it hasn't been then you still have to ascertain is it now authorised or unauthorised (planning terms).

I can only advise to meet directly with the planner for that area prior to signing any contracts and if there are any difficulties or grey areas you should then seek professional advice.

Good luck with it anyway