Turkey - EU

HelterSkelter

Can someone explain what's the big deal about Turkey joining the EU? And what is Austria's problem? Is it because Turkey is a Muslim country that they don't want them in?

Hobbes

I think it is to do with that Turkey has to agree to a number of rights to its citizens to be on par with most EU countries.

Skyuser

Turkey are currently not meeting some of the requirments to join the EU.

Culchie

They will also have the largest population in the EU by the time they join.

So it's going to be expensive for us all, as they will required massive investment to bring them to EU standards.

Eoin

They also have a pretty poor record with regards to Human Rights. Their treatment of ethnic minorities is shocking. There is quite a fragile cease fire at the moment, which is liable to end at any time. Have a look at this page for an example of how badly they treat the Kurds.

Turkey also invaded the north of Cyprus (in the 70s I think), and claimed the Northern part of the Island. The Cypriot residents were basically kicked out of their homes and sent to the Southern part homeless. A wall was then erected around the Northern part and is effectively a no-go area to the Cypriots. Turkey has banned all Cypriot vessels from entering their ports.

Cypress is a E.U. member, and Turkey refuses to recognise them. IMO there is no way they should be allowed in until they take drastic measures in changing their attitude towards Cyprus - as well as the minorities living in their own country.

That aside; the EU is all about a common group of interests. Diversity is a great thing, but we seem to have so little in common with Turkey. I don't know if we could integrate over there, and if they could integrate over here. If this is the case, then there seems little benefit to either Turkey or the existing members of the EU

murphaph

Whilst I agree with the sentiment of all the answers to the OP, the real reason Austria kicked up is indeed because the Turks are a bunch of muslims. In fact, the Austrian government only stated publically what the majority of the population of the primarily judaeo-christian EU feels privately.

Religion is indeed a huge factor in all this. My own opinions on this are that Turkey still falls short of their responsibilities on human rights and of course Cyprus is a fellow EU member and they must repsect every member in our union before we can accept them into the 'club'. Their treatment of kurdish minorities remains distinctly 'iffy' to say the least.

The country has changed perhaps more than any other in history following the 1st world war's defeat to the British and the ensuing resurrection under Attaturk. I bet many here won't realise that Turkey used to use the arabic script just 100 or so years ago but changed to roman script under the direction of Attaturk in an effort to 'westernise'. That's no different to us switching to Arabic script overnight! He also began the complete secularisation of that country and gave women the vote and full rights to education, famously remarking (something to the effect of) "you can't modernise half the country!". Turkey began this journey a long long time ago, but they still have some issues to tidy up.

deise boy

Austria's reasons behind blocking Turkish entry goes back hundreds of years. It is complicated but in a nutshell........It goes back to the clash of empires i.e. the ottoman (turkey) and the austro hungarian. there was a constant trade off of the land in between them for 300 years or so (the balkans) until both of them colapsed around WW1. The original conflict was religion based and subsequently it has been ideologically based.

Other reasons include Turkeys poor humanitarian record and their lack of wealth.

But are Austria so unreasonable? Lets look at the real issues. We have just accepted 10 new states into the Union effectively doubling its size in both population and geographical size. We have to place huge funding into these states for years to come (look at ireland, we still recieve grade one funding in the BMW region). Also is turkey in europe? Are they european? Who is the average european? I would class them as 1. Christian, or christian backround 2. relatively wealthy i.e. in the top half of the world. Does turkey fit into these two molds? The answer is no and so i think there would be huge problem with their accession.

bbbbb

I think Turkey/EU will kick off a HUGE debate over what the EU is all about. It's clearly more than a economic free area now (since they dropped "EEC"). Racisim and religion will be a big part of the discussion also.

Turkey does have some "european" heritage, though you may have to go back a bit, e.g.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople

As for Austria's objections, it looks like they were just trying to help out their Croatian friends?
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-10-04T000413Z_01_YUE400106_RTRUKOC_0_UK-EU-CROATIA-DELPONTE.xml

Whether the view point is cultural or economic, turkey will be a "big bite"

mike65

deise boy wrote:

Austria's reasons behind blocking Turkish entry goes back hundreds of years. It is complicated but in a nutshell........It goes back to the clash of empires i.e. the ottoman (turkey) and the austro hungarian. there was a constant trade off of the land in between them for 300 years or so (the balkans) until both of them colapsed around WW1. The original conflict was religion based and subsequently it has been ideologically based.

Other reasons include Turkeys poor humanitarian record and their lack of wealth.

But are Austria so unreasonable? Lets look at the real issues. We have just accepted 10 new states into the Union effectively doubling its size in both population and geographical size. We have to place huge funding into these states for years to come (look at ireland, we still recieve grade one funding in the BMW region).

Good point to highlight Austrias historical baggage, as for Turkey I view it becoming part of the EU in pragmatic terms. Is it better to have them inside the tent pissing out or outside the tent pissing in? Its the former. Turkey is a young state with an economy thats starting to do quite well, they sit "between" the Christian west and Muslim east and as such are a vital bridge. Things are quite bad enough vis-a-vis the gulf of understanding and Turkey is well placed to act as a mediator.

Also it would be foolish to assume that Turkey is always going to be 'unfundamental' If they are rejected that could be good news for the nut jobs in the caves...

Also is turkey in europe? Are they european? Who is the average european? I would class them as 1. Christian, or christian backround 2. relatively wealthy i.e. in the top half of the world. Does turkey fit into these two molds? The answer is no and so i think there would be huge problem with their accession.

Why does one have to be Christian to be European? As for wealth its worth remembering how rich this benighted state was in 1962 when Ireland request permission to join in EEC (about $2500 USD).

Turkey is ranked 101th per capita GDP ($7400 USD), Poland is ranked 72 right now ($12,000 USD)(source CIA).

Mike.

Mucco

murphaph wrote:

In fact, the Austrian government only stated publically what the majority of the population of the primarily judaeo-christian EU feels privately.

Wow, I'm impressed that you know what the majority of the EU population thinks!

The human rights issue is something that will have to be addressed before Turkey joins, it will be one of the requirements. And I think having a Muslim country joining will do no end of good for the 'Christian club'.

M

fly_agaric

Mucco wrote:

And I think having a Muslim country joining will do no end of good for the 'Christian club'.
M

It's news to me that the EU and its people are really big on Jesus!
Religious service attendances have been plumetting for years all over the EU, most Catholics couldn't give a monkies what the Pope thinks about premarital sex and contraception, our politicians thought it best that the EU constitution wouldn't mention the dirty old G-word or Europe's "Christian heritage" etc. Said "Christian heritage" comes in handy when one wants to do a damn good piece of installation art or sell your wares by creating a little insta-controversy (but nothing too dangerous or edgy).
If the EU is a "Christian club", they've a very funny way of showing it.The whole "Christian club" thing is just another soundbyte - a good way for Turkey's PM to stir the pot a bit. If anything the EU is closer to being a Satanists club.

http://www.answers.com/topic/satanism

"One of the largest and most influential Satanic groups is the Church of Satan (1966), founded by Anton LaVey in San Francisco. A splinter group, the Temple of Set (1975), was organized by Michael Aquino. Many Satanic groups, including the ones mentioned, attest that such worship does not necessarily imply evil intentions, but rather an alternative to the repressive morality of many other religious groups. Such groups see no harm in their indulgence in “worldly pleasures” that other religions forbid."

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

bonkey

deise boy wrote:

Austria's reasons behind blocking Turkish entry goes back hundreds of years. It is complicated but in a nutshell........It goes back to the clash of empires i.e. the ottoman (turkey) and the austro hungarian. there was a constant trade off of the land in between them for 300 years or so (the balkans) until both of them colapsed around WW1. The original conflict was religion based and subsequently it has been ideologically based.

Exactly.

This is why one will never see any two of France, England and Germany in the same union, and the Portugeuse, Dutch, Spanish and other lesser powers will also take some convincing to get on board with each other or the afore-mentioned three.

jc

ferdi

THe Problem with Turkey joining:

- Turkey is a MIDDLE EASTERN/ASIAN county not European.

Within the EU all the members despite their great diversity share a common 'Europena-ness' which will be lacking in the people and government of Turkey, they cannot really fit in. End of Story.

plus a country of 70 million people with such massive financial problems is not what the EU needs.

edit:

This historical explination of why Austria is opposed to Turkish menmbership is stupid. Present day Austrains couldnt give a toss about the ottoman empire! A more credible explination might be that there are some 300,000 Turks in Austria already, a 'flood gate' scenaio is on the mind of many, particularly those who live in areas where Turks seem to be thae cause and aggrivators of significant social problems.

Culchie

Austria also used the Turkey situation to get their traditional allies and friend Croatia in.

It was tremendous politics on their part.

Croatia were being held over a barrell regarding the General Gotovina issue (who the Vatican are apparently harbouring) and the EU were insisting that they were co-operating wwith the ICTY.

Croatia insisted they were, and met 355 of 356 conditions, but because they couldn't find Gotovina Britain (traditionally warm towards the Serbs) used this against Croatia to block access talks, and they were suspended since last March.

Carla Del Ponte the ICTY chief prosecutor towed this line for the last 6 months, saying that Croatia were not fullt co-operating with the EU (because Gotovina was not found).
This has insensed Croatians who feel they are being held accountable for something out of their control, and the Austrians as well.

Austria used the Turkey 'veto' to use as leverage and so after some late night discussions, Del Ponte issued a statement that Croatia was fully co-operating with ICTY and so the last barrier to full access talks was lifted (and rightly so).

It was politics at it's best by the Austrians. Brilliant Poker

Cronus333

ferdi wrote:

THe Problem with Turkey joining:

- Turkey is a MIDDLE EASTERN/ASIAN county not European.

Within the EU all the members despite their great diversity share a common 'Europena-ness' which will be lacking in the people and government of Turkey, they cannot really fit in. End of Story.

plus a country of 70 million people with such massive financial problems is not what the EU needs.

edit:

This historical explination of why Austria is opposed to Turkish menmbership is stupid. Present day Austrains couldnt give a toss about the ottoman empire! A more credible explination might be that there are some 300,000 Turks in Austria already, a 'flood gate' scenaio is on the mind of many, particularly those who live in areas where Turks seem to be thae cause and aggrivators of significant social problems.

thats the most probable reason. But Turkey is European!!!

murphaph

Cronus333 wrote:

thats the most probable reason. But Turkey is European!!!

Well, a bit of it is Seriousy though, I think it would be a good thing on the whole to get them in the club, but not at any cost. I'd like the EU to go no further east than Turkey though. I'm also hesitant about the speed of enlargement. The 10 countries just admitted have a long way to go before they could become net contributors to the EU, we're only getting there now, after 30 odd years of membership.

bill_ashmount

murphaph wrote:

I'd like the EU to go no further east than Turkey though. I'm also hesitant about the speed of enlargement.

Can't see it stopping at Turkey. Most of that country is not in Europe, rather the Middle East. While the leaders of that country may look towards Europe, where do most of the people look for guidance?
Europe will now have borders with some of the most militant countries in the Middle East. Will a future attack on Turkey result in the whole of Europe now having to go to war against Iran/Iraq etc..???? Turkey doesn't need to be in Europe to safeguard the middle east.

Will any referundum's held in future years be held up if France or The Netherlands reject their membership?

Where next for the E.U.? Probably a move into North Africa, Morocco maybe, not as far fetched as it would have seemed 50 years ago...

biko

20 fined for using letters W and Q http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/10/25/turk.letters.reut/index.html

Suff

ferdi wrote:

THe Problem with Turkey joining:

- Turkey is a MIDDLE EASTERN/ASIAN county not European.

Within the EU all the members despite their great diversity share a common 'Europena-ness' which will be lacking in the people and government of Turkey, they cannot really fit in. End of Story.

Can you explain to me then how Isreal is allowed to play in the EU soccer leagues?? knowing it's location south to Turky, Syria and Lebanon???

Suff

bill_ashmount wrote:

Europe will now have borders with some of the most militant countries in the Middle East. Will a future attack on Turkey result in the whole of Europe now having to go to war against Iran/Iraq etc..???? Turkey doesn't need to be in Europe to safeguard the middle east.

I think that might be the best thing to happen to the world! the EU will get bigger and more interesting, Also for the people who are saying that the EU should be for people who share he same culture, Can you please point them out to me??
there are no culture unity in the EU! same langague? history, race, religion?
none! but it's working so far. why should it be a problem if turkey joined the EU (After sorting the outstanding issues required to joining)

bill_ashmount wrote:

Where next for the E.U.? Probably a move into North Africa, Morocco maybe, not as far fetched as it would have seemed 50 years ago...

...I think they have akready done this! most of the mediterranean countries have EU trading policies and agrements

Sand

Can you explain to me then how Isreal is allowed to play in the EU soccer leagues?? knowing it's location south to Turky, Syria and Lebanon???

Well given the historically fantastic relations between Israel and her neighbours that has involved several military conflicts and and amazingly well funded suicide bombing campaign in Israel it was felt that perhaps games wouldnt be all that good idea when the north, south, east and west stands would be raining down on the pitch before the first half was over. Its not that Israel is a European country, more than some compromise was needed to allow Israel to compete without having their team/supporters murdered by the locals. Munich Olympics and all that.

patzer117

mike65 wrote:

Also it would be foolish to assume that Turkey is always going to be 'unfundamental' If they are rejected that could be good news for the nut jobs in the caves...

I doubt it. Those 'nut jobs' are the ones that really don't want Turkey to join. You're not seriously saying that the fundamentalists that want America out of Saudi Arabia etc. would like a bit of western encroachment into Turkey are you? In reality it is only the liberals who want to join the EU and the fundamentalists would broadly welcome a rejection I imagine. Otherwise the EU American sphere of influence would grow too large and the fundamentalists would think the EU is trying to destroy their culture. That's what all the terrorist bombings in tourist resorts in Turkey and Egypt are about - telling westerners to get off their turf.

It's not my opinion that Turkey shouldn't be allowed to join, it's my opinion that they shouldn't join because they should see it wouldn't benefit them. I'm fine with a cordial relationship, maybe even a free marked but having the EU border stretch to Iraq leaves us far too vulnerable, and them far too much in the dangerzone. Also Turkey don't have proper control of the borders in that region. I'm not opposed to Turkey joining, i think Turkey are wrong to want to join us.

Patzer

bungeecork

I have so many points to add to this discussion I don't know where to start.

I think that people should be free to practice their own religions anywhere but that religion and politics should be completely divorced. (BTW politics should have nothing to do with sports either). I'd love to see a political discussion on the issues concerning membership of Turkey not include the words muslim, christian etc. I'd also love to not see any reasons for or against membership refer to history. I'd love if any country that wanted to join the EU could join, as long as they followed the rules.

In fact if there were two EUs competing with each other it would be cool. Then both could bid for Turkey to join their side.

Yeah, maybe I should stay out of this board

mike65

patzer117 wrote:

I doubt it. Those 'nut jobs' are the ones that really don't want Turkey to join. You're not seriously saying that the fundamentalists that want America out of Saudi Arabia etc. would like a bit of western encroachment into Turkey are you? In reality it is only the liberals who want to join the EU and the fundamentalists would broadly welcome a rejection I imagine.

Patzer

You misread me, if Turkey is rejected then that bolsters the case of the fundamentalists - if they join the 'nut-jobs' will have less oppotuinity to build a political force that could take over Turkey. Turkey outside may be more prone to extreme influences.

Mike.

patzer117

True mike 65, Turkey outside would be more prone to extreme influences, but I reckon Turkey inside would make the rest of the middle east much more prone to extreme influences from those who don't want Turkey or any other muslim nation to be part of the EU, and would think its membership a breach of muslim territory. It's not good for Turkey because it wouldn't be good for the stability of the rest of the middle east.

Also how do you think a rejection would further the case of the fundamentalists? i think it would make them more popular but I don't think their case would change, unless by making it weaker.

Patzer

Zebra3

Suff wrote:

Can you explain to me then how Isreal is allowed to play in the EU soccer leagues?? knowing it's location south to Turky, Syria and Lebanon???

They don't play in the 'EU soccer leagues', but their national side and club sides compete in the UEFA orgainsed tournaments. Nothing to do with the EU.

Nations from outside Europe are allowed compete to give UEFA (the European football association) more power in FIFA (the world association). Other non-European countries like Turkey (Asia Minor), Cyprus (south of Asia Minor), Armenia, Georgia, and Azerbaijan also compete in 'European' competitions.

philologos

to be honest sometimes religion interferes with politics and in this case the fact that Turkey is a muslim country shouldn't matter at all. Just because they are a muslim country shouldn't restrict their chances of getting in the EU

Cronus333

Jakkass wrote:

to be honest sometimes religion interferes with politics and in this case the fact that Turkey is a muslim country shouldn't matter at all. Just because they are a muslim country shouldn't restrict their chances of getting in the EU

stop reading my mind!!!!!! I do be agreeing with thee....

Eoin

Jakkass wrote:

to be honest sometimes religion interferes with politics and in this case the fact that Turkey is a muslim country shouldn't matter at all. Just because they are a muslim country shouldn't restrict their chances of getting in the EU

I don't know if you can seperate the two of them, because their religion defines their politics.

Suff

eoin_s wrote:

I don't know if you can seperate the two of them, because their religion defines their politics.

No it doesn;t. Turkey is an islamic country yes but the goverment does not allow any religion to effects it's politics, they are a non-religoius goverment.

patzer117

Suff wrote:

No it doesn;t. Turkey is an islamic country yes but the goverment does not allow any religion to effects it's politics, they are a non-religoius goverment.

Secular is the word you are looking for. Backward is my word. It is forbidden to criticise the Turkish government in Turkey, along with any state institutions. Which is a blatant breach of freedom of speech.

Ok, apart from historical and cultural reasons, both of which are valid, Turkey is a country of 70 million odd people (cia.gov) 70% of which are farmers. This would result in oh, a good 50 million farmers coming into the ol' EU and screwing over our already pitiful Common Agricultural Policy, and taking out irish farmers and many western farmers because the EU simply could not afford another 50 million to support. Turkey would also need an unprecedented amount of development in the east of the country which is economically backward, and hasn't experienced much economic success due to the lack of investment in Kurdish regions.

And hell they don't recognise Cyprus as a legitimate country, which poses a problem what with Cyprus being a member of the EU and all.

Suff

patzer117 wrote:

Secular is the word you are looking for. Backward is my word.

Why backward?

patzer117

patzer117 wrote:

Turkey is a country of 70 million odd people

They can't ALL be odd, surely?

growler

patzer117 wrote:

Secular is the word you are looking for. Backward is my word. It is forbidden to criticise the Turkish government in Turkey, along with any state institutions. Which is a blatant breach of freedom of speech.

.

its ironic that most of the laws that clash with our European / Anglo / American sense of free speech were designed to prevent any non secular bodies wielding power in Turkey. Ok , they have gone way over the top in their dealings with the kurds , but historically it's not as though none of the current EU countries ever tried to discriminate on a minority / religion in the last few centuries.

I think the problem is really one of timing and motivations, if you wander around Istanbul you could be forgiven for thinking you're in any European capital , you have all the shops and brands you'd get anywhere else, you don't see any more islamic dress than you would in Berlin, London or Vienna, there are pubs, short skirts , scam artists etc, all is asa we would expect it to be. But when you leave the wealthy city centres behind you find a lot of poverty, more islamic influences on people's lives and therefore a different life view than we are familiar with havig lived in a Christian culture.

I suspect that the rich. powerful and political elite would love to see Turkey integrated and for these classes it wouldn't be a huge leap, but for the other X% the transition from being Turkish to European would require a fundamental shift in attitudes. The necessary legal changes the are prerequisite for EU entry would also open the doors to a political challenge from an fundamentalist Islamic party, this is a concern that any Turks I've spoken to about the EU raise.

Regardless of the political rhetoric I think this is purely about economics, the EU cannot absorb Turkey's poor nor can it afford to finance Turkey's development to a level where it meets EU standards, nor would current members to the west ( UK, Ireland, France) find it politically acceptable to burden their taxpayers with the bills for Turkeys development. Long term the EU would like to have a buffer zone with the middle east and a land border with a significant oil exporter but I think the timescales would need to be in decades for the necessary groundwork to be completed.