Inbred Dog

Baldie

My girlfriends sister has a boxer bitch, and one of her pups from her first litter about 12 - 18 months ago. The pup mated with the mother, and she had pups. The owners didn't know this until she was actually pregnant. 4 were born and two died. The mother died yesterday morning. They think she had an infection or there was pups left inside her, (as she had 12 pups in her first litter).

The two surviving pups are healthy and very strong looking. They are well able to move around the basket when they need to. These two pups are now being hand fed by my girlfriend. Hopefully they will survive.

Anyway the reason I posted is, will this pups be ok, because they are inbred and the genes are too close? They look alright, but would they turn vicious when they grow up? They're will be kids near these pups so it would be a concren if they did turn.

Thanks.

SuzyS1972

Unbelievable
Who wouldn't notice their dog was pregnant - who wouldn't even notice their dog was in season ?

Just goes to show the level of IGNORANCE surrounding back-yard breeders doesn't it.
Breeding a dog and not even knowing the basics :mad:

** Edited to add **
I inderstand this was an " accidental litter " but why was the bitch not spayed , the male not neutered ?
And it sounds to me like a vet hasn't been called as I am sure any veterinary surgeon worth anything would have given advice on all the questions you are asking above.

peasant

First of all, no dog just "turns" vicious. All dogs are potentially dangerous (as they are instinct driven hunters by lineage) and we train and socialise them to be controllable and "harmless". So its a matter of upbringing and training to obtain a well adjusted "harmless" dog and a matter of proper behaviour towards the dog to avoid conflict.

Secondly, you do NOT leave young children and dogs unsupervised. Young children have no sense of proportion or right and wrong and might do things to a dog that give the dog no other chance but to defend itself. Even the most placid and peaceful dog will snap at you when you poke a finger at its eyes.

As for those inbred pups ...they MAY be perfectly all right, they may have heredetary diseases or they may even be mentally handicapped ...time will tell and a vet should help.

As for the whole sorry affair ...I have promised not to berate people, so I'll bite my tongue and just ask a few questions:

Any particular reason for not sterilising the bitch after her first litter?
Why wasn't the male pup castrated?
Why wasn't the bitch separated from the male when she came into heat?
Where was the pre natal care by the vet, when her pregnancy was discovered?
Why was there no discussion with the vet about a possible abortion?
Where was the vet when she was giving birth?
And when will the vet get a look the surving pups?

SuzyS1972

There's just the perfect example above on why is it NOT a good idea to let dogs " have a litter "
Why it is NOT cruel to " neuter a bitch "

Is it not cruel to allow a bitch to get pregnant by one of her own pups ?
Is is not cruel to allow a bitch to give birth on her own - to not seek veterinary advise and find the bitch dead because she still had half the litter stuck inside her ?

Baldie

They did actually go to the vet and he instructed them on how to look after the pups. Should have mentioned that earlier.

To be honest I don't know the answers to those questions as they are not my dogs.

I know that dogs and children should never be left alone, I never said they would be left alone.

I know this is a sad situation but these things happen, don't they? I was only looking for advice on the inbred pups and would they be healthy? There was no need to get agressive towards me, afterall, I am only an outsider here.

Im asking because they might be handing the pups over to the vet. If thats the case then I was thinking about taking one of them, getting it neutered and just having it as a pet, as breeding with these dogs wouldn't be a good idea, (I'd say).

peasant

I was only looking for advice on the inbred pups and would they be healthy?

The only thing one can say with certainty right now is that they are alive and not deformed ...anything else will show itself (or not) over time ...

In this case no advice can be given ..its all speculation.

It would be a good idea to have these pups grow up with a nanny dog around (if one could be found ...ask the vet for help) as they need normal doggy care and attention to grow up normally. Having no contact with their own kind at this early age might affect their behaviour (negatively) later on, even if they are perfectly alright otherwise.

Baldie

peasant wrote:

It would be a good idea to have these pups grow up with a nanny dog around (if one could be found ...ask the vet for help) as they need normal doggy care and attention to grow up normally. Having no contact with their own kind at this early age might affect their behaviour (negatively) later on, even if they are perfectly alright otherwise.

A Labrador who just gave birth and lost some pups was found, but she wouldn't take the pups. That's why they are being hand fed.

Currently they are in a basket with two 2L bottles of warm water and a pillow, covered with a tea towel to keep them warm and comfortable. I put another tea towel over the pups before I left her house last night just to keep them that bit warmer. They survived their first night away from their mother anyway, so, so far so good....

Is there anything else that should be done?

peasant

Is there anything else that should be done?

There's probably loads of things to be considered.
Personally I don't really have any experience of raising pups from birth.
Try and locate an experienced breeder / rescue and get their advice on top of that from the vet. Maybe the vet could point you in the right direction locally?

Hellrazer

Right thats it-Suzy.

Ive had enough of this.

Peasant Ive discussed this at lenght with you through Pms and Im glad you`ve taken on board what we discussed and are now actively helping people out in a non-confrontational way.

As for Suzy the same cannot be said.

Baldie asks for advice and gets the head snapped off them.
Honestly Im getting extremely pissed off with this.If you dont have anything in the way of help to offer the original poster then dont post at all.

1.The dogs were not Baldies as stated.
2.He has stated that he was looking for advice to help the two surviving pubs.
3.He has already stated that he understands that its a bad situation.

My final word on this is:

If anyone else decides to "attack" a poster regardless of how bad a situation has become or how bad that original posters "mistakes" have been then that person is getting a 1 week ban for the first offence,1 month for the second and if after that if there is a further breaking of the rules then its a permanent ban.

Baldie

Thanks Hellrazor. I want these pups to survive, they deserve it.

I found a website which deals with raising pups with the mother and by hand. Should help.....

http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/nanochi/breeding2.html

SuzyS1972

I am very sorry for the early morning rant
Was logging back on to advise you of at all possible to borrow a heat lamp from a vet or rescue centre who may not be needing it at the moment.
Direct heat such as bottles may be too much for them. You can please the heat lamp over the box you have the puppies in -
A box with rolled up towels / blankets around the edges to prevent the pups slipping / getting squashed is another thing you may need to do.

You will need to feed these guys every 2 - 3 hours with a syrine / dropper or if you can get a weaning tube from a pet store then all the better.
You can use formulation milk or colostrum - again available from vets / good pet suppliers. There are many different brands / kinds to choose from.
You will also need to rub their bums / stimulate them to go to the toilet too after feeding - and keep them as clean as possible.

Hand rear puppies are very hard to deal with and are very hard work and I do wish you luck with them .

There are also behavorial aspects to deal with when raising puppies by hand as they do miss out on the discipline of mum and the social interaction with her.

I notice you are in Limerick - perhaps speak to Limerick Animal Welfare about advice on re-homing the dogs - they will give you good advice on re-homing and what are the vital things to look for when you are looking at potential homes for these little guys.

Sigma Force

Best thing now to do is keep up the veterinary care of the two remaining pups, there is a good chance they will develope problems, boxers themselves have many health problem as it is, however the little guys deserve a chance. My only advice is to make totally sure that these pups are neutered/spayed at 5 months of age (no later than 6 months if the vet won't to them at 5 months).
Have them vaxed/wormed etc at the appropriate age and basically have her look after them. If she no longer wants them and ends up rehoming them or having them pts advise her not to get any more dogs until she has done some more research and is willing to spay/neuter etc.
That way it will save everyone the heartache.

Hope that helps

Baldie

Ya we're doing most of the above anyway.

A guy in work hand reared a few dogs before and he said if they are indoors then they're shouldn't be a need for a heatlamp. Just to keep them out of draughts and near a radiator. He only used the heat lamp when the pups were in an outhouse or shed.

If I can Im going to take one of them when they're 8 weeks old. Seperate them now and they'll die. I'll get onto the animal welfare and vet alright for more help.

aare

Trying to think of anything useful I can add to the page you found for yourself which is only amazing in detail and knowledge.

I thought of one vital thing.

Denied their mother's milk these pups will not have the slightest resistance to any pup sickness, including the dreaded parvo.

You can't innoculate them until they are 8 weeks old (but check with vet, it may be possible to do it at 6 weeks), so everything needs to be kept as sterile as possible. Keep outdoor shoes away from them particularly because parvo is often passed in urine and feces of which traces remain on concrete etc for a very long time unless sterilised properly, so the virus could easily be walked in to infect them.

Of course, their own mess is harmless to them...and puppies LOVE mess!

I hope they make it

rose of jericho

I'm sure eveything will be fine. It's not like these are the first pups ever to lose their mother. I had to do the same thing when my bitch gave birth to two pups and decided that she wanted absolutely nothing to do with them from the minute they were born. I even had to break the sacks for her and these pups are now both 8 years old and perfectly normal dogs. As for the inbreeding well what can I say **** happens and again it won't be the first time it happens either. They should be fine though if they have got past the first few weeks ok and are feeding well and moving around I'd say they will be fine but as for growing up vicious that's just an old wives tale as was said previously any dog has the potential to be vicious as an adult it just depends on how they are brought up and looked after.

Good luck