Hybrid Cars

zoro

Hey - I'm having an absolute nightmare finding out information on where to get these in Ireland.

It's mostly out of interest, but jesus is it completely impossible to get them here?!

Any help at all would be appreciated!

PaulieC

far as I know, the only hybrids on the roads in Ireland are the Toyota Prius and the Lexus RX400h, so the easiest place to find out about them would be to go to a Toyota dealer. The Prius lists for around EUR28.5k, not sure about the Lexus. Hybrid cars qualify for a 50% VRT rebate
hope this helps

Seth Brundle

Ford announced the introduction of a Focus which uses ethanol (from selected maxols - currently only one in Sandymount).
No mention of VRT reductions, etc. yet.

bazz26

They are not very popular here.

This is a good place to start though: http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=search&maxrows=100&MakeID=31&xMakeID=31&ModelID=663&xModelID=663&Year=&xYear=&submit=Find+cars+%3E%3E

The Prius is very expensive and lets face it the guy who designed the look obviously was trying to save energy by drawing it in the dark. I know the Government used to give you back money if you bought one new but I'm not sure they do that anymore. The Prius electric engine really only benefits around town as the petrol engine kicks in at 70mph, I cannot see any benefit if you do alot of motorway driving.

You could probably buy one of the new low capacity diesel cars for less money, most manufacturers had a 1.4 or 1.6 diesel engine in their range these days. Probably alot easier to service and sell on afterwards too.

zoro

Ah - that's a good deal of information there. Thanks.

I'm actually interested in any non-petrol fulled cars, so I suppose smart cars (they're electric yes?) should interest me too.
Any info on them? or similar ones?

ambro25

Well, the new Lexus Off-Curbs-Roader is supposedly one... And of course the fabled PRIUS. Which other ones are you interested in / looking for? And is that electric/fuel hybrid, or gas/fuel hybrid or oil/diesel hybrid or...?

EDIT - Ah! sorry, I was late coming to the party again :rolleyes:

SMART are petrol (some diesel variants on Continent - they available here yet?).

A good few years back, Renault made an all-electric Clio (1st shape) and Pug made an all-electric 106 (again 1st shape).

Max speed was about 80 mph, range was 60 to 70 miles on a charge, car weighed about as much as a fully-grown 5-series with the (lead) batteries in, which had to changed roughly every 5 years. You just plugged into the mains, like a hoover, it had a standard two-prong wall plug on a reel when you opened the petrol cap. Charge was taking 3 to 4 hours, reportedly same KWh usage as a TV.

I test-drove both at the time and am actually looking to import one of these at the moment for the missus to potter around Dublin (currently using an electric scooter/moped to commute, changed from a car - it's changed my life and that's no exaggeration). I'd look at France (country of production) and Germany (most buyers because greenest people on Continent).

VRT calculation should be interesting - how would they measure engine cc?

zoro

You could probably buy one of the new low capacity diesel cars for less money, most manufacturers had a 1.4 or 1.6 diesel engine in their range these days. Probably alot easier to service and sell on afterwards too.

Well my interest in this area of transport is only because of the lack of dependancy on petrol and diesel.



*edit* I'll change this a bit actually. It's not only petrol/diesel, rather all fossil based fuels. I really don't believe that there's an absolute requirement for them any more and tbh, I'd rather have a car that doesn't depend on them

Seth Brundle

possible helpful link - www.bmwworld.com/hydrogen

ds20prefecture

zoro wrote:

*edit* I'll change this a bit actually. It's not only petrol/diesel, rather all fossil based fuels. I really don't believe that there's an absolute requirement for them any more and tbh, I'd rather have a car that doesn't depend on them

Interesting ideal.

Hybrid cars depend on fossil fuels, so eliminate them immediately.

You can convert a diesel to use so-called bio-diesel (I think it's made from Rapeseed oil) which would not be a fossil fuel. But the argument there seems to be that to plant/grow/harvest/process the rape you expend a helluva lot of fossil fuels, in fact consuming more than the energy the rape gives. I don't know if I personally buy this argument, but it seems to have stopped advances in this field.

Even pure electric cars have to get their electricity from somewhere, and assuming you're in Ireland chances are that 99% of it is from fossil fuels. Unless you've cracked that whole nuclear fusion dealie, in which case you should join the hyper-geniuses forum

"I really don't believe that there's an absolute requirement for them any more"
Until it becomes economical and practical to use renewable energy sources I believe you are wrong. These are not too far away, so in the meantime buy the most economical car you can. Better yet, buy an old car and save all of the energy that goes into making a new one.

Have you considered other modes of transport? Walking, bicycling and horse riding are just a few of the ways you can cover large distances while consuming a minimum amount of fossil fuels. Falling is another way, but you tend to cover less distance and rarely enjoy the journey, unless you miss the ground.

alias no.9

Hybrid's are really only going to impress americans where fuel consumption is so terrible that these things look space age. Real world experience with consumption figures do not match the rolling road tests that are done for the official figures which claim 65mpg but real world is about 55mpg. The extra weight and the fact that real world driving does not happen on rolling roads make the difference.

If you want a car to run on fuel other than fossil fuel you really have two options, the ford focus ffv which runs on a blend of 85% ethanol and 15% petrol, though the fuel is only available at one maxol station or else get a diesel car and run it on biodiesel or vegetable oil, you'll have to do some conversion work on the car and you'll need to either make the biodiesel yourself and have somewhere to store the vegetable oil or biodisesel. If you're intent on the veg oil route, ironically it's some of the older diesel engines which are most suitable though Elsbett in germany do a conversion kit for some VW TDi's (but not the pumpe deuse versions) and renaults DTi engines which are also used in some volvos, both reasonably new technology but only the VW TDI is still available in new cars.

ambro25

(References in French, sorry)

See this page for useful references and a timeline. Apparently, Citroen also did an AX and a Saxo.

Studies quoted in this article place all-electric cars (some of which are still available to buy new from PSA and Renault dealers) at €3k to €5k more expensive to buy than the equivalent petrol version, and worthwhile from 8000 kms/year onwards.

11.000 registered in Europe, of which 8.000 in France alone (collectivities/cities use a lot of electric small vans, e.g. Renault Berlingo).

As for cost estimate, this paper calculates it as:

Le prix de l'électricité, peu taxée, est autour de 80 Euros par MWH en tarif de nuit, ce qui fait 2 Euros pour un "plein" de 25 kWh. Une batterie qui permettrait de parcourir 200 km, rechargée 500 fois conduirait à une distance totale parcourue de 100000 km, et à une consommation de 7000 litres d'essence pour un moteur thermique. L’investissement dans la batterie devient donc rentable pour un coût inférieur à 7000 Euros. A 0.3 $/Wh le prix d’une batterie 25 kWh est de 6000 Euros . D’où l’intérêt montré par certains industriels (Bolloré, Dassault).

which translates roughly as- 25 KW/h req'd for a 'full tank' @ €80 per MW/h at night = €2 for a 'full tank' giving a 200 kms range, so €0.01 per km ( :eek: )

and not forgetting of course -
Plus new tyres
Plus brake maintenance and pads
Minus maintenance on engine (no engine / moving parts)

But only really viable if you only zip-n-zap around Dublin - don't expect a trip to Cork or Galway, never mind on Ferry to the UK

zoro

ds20prefecture: Nice reply

I'll respond to parts of your own post

Hybrid cars depend on fossil fuels, so eliminate them immediately

I'll explain myself again so
So long as yoru speeds stay below 70mph, it will run on electricity, from what I've read/heard.

Even pure electric cars have to get their electricity from somewhere

Yes I realise that - and you certainly have a point. However my own personal consumption of fossil based fuels will be zero. Or, at the very least, as little as possible.
Large, production based, fuel consumption activities such as electricity production is a whole different kettle of fish

Have you considered other modes of transport?

I have of course - As I said in my first post, this is mainly a matter of interest. I've found it exceedingly difficult to find any information regarding these cars as well as anything similar. (in Ireland)

Falling is another way, but you tend to cover less distance and rarely enjoy the journey, unless you miss the ground

gotta love Douglas Adams

ambro25

As an alternative, go see 'green machines' in Terenure - no cars but plenty of electric mopeds.

ds20prefecture

zoro wrote:

So long as your speeds stay below 70mph, it will run on electricity, from what I've read/heard.

This is not true. Hybrid cars work by using electric motors in tandem with regular internal combustion engines. The electric motor is best suited to, for example, moving the car from rest to say 15 mph, at which point the petrol engine can take over and do it's thing more efficiently and thus more economically. Likewise, if you wish to overtake with a puny 1.5l engine (like in the prius) the two electric motors kick in to give you a much needed torque boost, thus backing up the manufacturers claim of 2.0 performance with 1.5 economy.

The really clever bit is that when you brake in a normal car, any excess energy is pissed away in heat. In a hybrid like Toyota's, this motors are "reversed" into generators to store the excess energy as electricity.

When your batteries drain, the petrol motor kicks in full time. Now you have a puny 1.5 litre engine hauling a heavy-ass car (with a lot of dead batteries in it) around in stop-go traffic. This is the least efficient method of transport I can imagine. Compare this to a small light modern diesel like a Citroën C2/C3 and you will find that you will consume less fossil fuels with the diesel, as well as emitting less pollutants.

The Prius and 400h are remarkable engineering feats, but I wonder how truly ecologically sound they are. Batteries are particularly nasty items - how are they to be disposed of?

ds20prefecture

ambro25 wrote:

As an alternative, go see 'green machines' in Terenure - no cars but plenty of electric mopeds.

What an excellent idea - they should have be a much more usable proposition than the electric car. Can you tell me a bit about running one?

el tel

There's a Honda Insight parked permanently on Mount Street Upper and it is such a kewl car. I'd hazzard a guess that they might be the 'commonest' hybid car in Ireland/UK, even though they are pretty rare at that.

It's identical to this:

SouperComputer

I was watching a debate on TV in teh US a few weeks ago. It was a discussion about the feasability of ethanol production. Anyway, during the debate, an interesting point was made:

It takes 2BTU's of fossil fuel energy to produce 1BTU of electricity. Its a very lossy process and on that basis is actually much less environmentally friendly!

unkel

ds20prefecture wrote:

The really clever bit is that when you brake in a normal car, any excess energy is pissed away in heat. In a hybrid like Toyota's, this motors are "reversed" into generators to store the excess energy as electricity.

When your batteries drain, the petrol motor kicks in full time. Now you have a puny 1.5 litre engine hauling a heavy-ass car (with a lot of dead batteries in it) around in stop-go traffic. This is the least efficient method of transport I can imagine

Sums it up quite nicely. The whole hybrid (petrol+electro) car concept is much overhyped imho

69 mustang

If you want to run a diesel on 100% cooking oil check out this site.
The kit costs about £100.So far its not suitable for very cold countries but Ireland's OK.
www.fuelcat.co.uk
never see a pump again

shagman

I went to a talk last week given by these guys.... eilish oils on converting a standard diesel engine to run on vegetable oil. The tax situation has all been cleared up now (0% tax rating) so it seems to me this is exactly what you're looking for, renewable organic GM free zero pollution cheap fuel in any diesel car you like.

ds20prefecture

69 mustang wrote:

If you want to run a diesel on 100% cooking oil check out this site.The kit costs about £100.So far its not suitable for very cold countries but Ireland's OK.www.fuelcat.co.uk never see a pump again

Amazing - this self same product used to be marketed to hapless classic petrol car owners as a means of

a) adding lead to petrol
b) boosting octance
c) prolonging engine life
d) doubling economy.

And all this by merely sitting between the pump and the tank. Isn't it amazing that it will now allow a diesel car to run on cooking oil. Amazing as in unbelievable. It's like magic! It's too good to be true!

It's snake oil. If you want a really good laugh, ask them how it works.

ambro25

ds20prefecture wrote:

What an excellent idea - they should have be a much more usable proposition than the electric car. Can you tell me a bit about running one?

* It's extremely cheap (costs about the same to charge as having a 21" TV on for 3 to 4 hours, gives you about 50 to 60kms autonomy)
* You'll never be done for speeding (60/65 kph max, so city/'burbs only)
* The only maintenance it will ever need is tyres and brakes (and possibly a new battery after a *long* while)
* You'll never have to worry about parking, traffic jams, congestion etc.
* And it doesn't pollute (i) with emissions or (ii) noise - actually the *silent* bit is a bit of a problem, with people not hearing approach (especially if they're mp3'ing) but if you're an experienced car driver like me, anticipation should not be too much of a problem

If you're commuting by car and considering one, the 'maths' stack up as:

Plus scooter price (i bought mine 2nd hand for €700)
Plus equipment (helmet, gloves, weather gear)
Plus road tax (€31)
Plus insurance (€255 TP, 33 yrs old, on my French car driving license (1990))
Plus electricity, currently (reasonably) guesstimated @ roughly €0,01 per mile (not km)
(Plus tarp' for the car )

ambro25

Minus petrol for the scooter
Minus petrol for the car
Minus maintenance for the car (reduced, less miles travelled per year)
Minus (a variable portion of) insurance for the car (same reason - a lot for me as I've taken the "commuting" part out of it, got second 'family' car if weather gets really bad)
Minus (a bit of) depreciation for the car (same reason)

And (this depends on your commute distance and particulars), personally:

Plus at least one hour in bed in the morning
Plus back home at least a half hour earlier
Minus (occasional) car parking all day on meter (€16)