Police H2H Combat Needs?

pma-ire

Just picking up from a few comments I noticed while catching up with posts while I was away.

Gardai get some in some of the most nasty scraps!

I've only once seen a Detective walk into a situation and cuff a guy cleanly who was laying into 2 beat cops on a Saturday afternoon (a shoplifter it turned out to be!). It was sweet!

Every other time I have seen Gardai in the thick of it they have gotten a hammering until their back-up arrived.

The amount of training they get in physical action control is mad! Then they are left off out to work it out for themselves! This is why they then will think that joint locking will not work! Or pp's will not work! It's down to lack of effective training and drilling!

The state should have Garda on a mixed range course at leat once a year that is geared towards subdue, control and restraint.

How to use the billy-batton to the most effective results without having to just swing it at a poor sods noggin'. Also against weapon attacks like knives and bat/hurleys/axes...

They should be taught how to survive on the ground! (and it's great that you have got some Gardai interested in this JK)

I remember I was on a door of an off-licence and a bar fight spilled out onto the street. As it happened an unmarked was coming down the street with two young Gardai in it! One Garda took off after a guy that had bottled one of the group fighting leaving the other Garda with the guy the victum. Who turned on the Garda as he was helping him to stand up, pulled him to the ground and started thumping into him!

The Garda was doing well(albeit taking him time about getting up) until the guys mates came back (one it seems was the guy that bottled him??) and beat the Garda back to the ground, then lashing into his head until the doorstaff and other Garda came back! I thought it was a fair fight until that happened!!

breadmonkey

The Garda was doing well(albeit taking him time about getting up) until the guys mates came back (one it seems was the guy that bottled him??) and beat the Garda back to the ground, then lashing into his head until the doorstaff and other Garda came back! I thought it was a fair fight until that happened!!

No offence, but what exactly were you doing while this Garda was getting the sh!t knocked out of him?

pma-ire

breadmonkey wrote:

No offence, but what exactly were you doing while this Garda was getting the sh!t knocked out of him?

This all happened really quick!

I would not get involved in a one on one fight unless I thought someone was gonna loose there life! And there is no way I would get into a fight were the Gardai are involved.

When it was the one Garda and the guy that was bottled then that was a deffo stand off situation! When the other two lads came back and lashed into him. I turned to the girl behind the desk to ring the city centre "Cop Shop" and by the time I had turned to walk out the door and head down there the other Garda was coming back and the lads legged it!

The 3 man attack lasted about 30 seconds. I have helped a Garda before, it's not worth it! They prefer if you stay out of things!

breadmonkey

OK, didn't realise it happened that fast,

BUT!

I may be going out on a limb here, but I'm pretty sure that any Guard would appreciate some intervention if s/he was being pummelled in the face by 3 people!

pma-ire

breadmonkey wrote:

OK, didn't realise it happened that fast,

BUT!

I may be going out on a limb here, but I'm pretty sure that any Guard would appreciate some intervention if s/he was being pummelled in the face by 3 people!

I'm sure anyone would like to have someone dig them out of a spot like that! But the one time I did help a Garda it landed me in a court case against me for assault!!

The Garda told me that he was glad that I helped (fellow the Garda was asked to come in and remove from a hotel I was drinking at tried to slice him!!). But he said that they kinda have to keep the public out of any fights that they are not already involved in!

So this is where I am coming from with this. They are on there own, and are under trained for the tasks. This Garda told me so himself! I have also trained (and drank) with other Gardai and they all say the same thing! Some guys are afraid to use the batton cause they only know how to swing it and whack guys on the head and that only brings them up in front of a judge because the scumbag they were defending against was just waiting for it to happen!!

Roper

Bloke I know is a cop. His take on the H2H stuff they do is that it is fairly poor, but more because they don't do enough of it rather than the content.

The way he describes it, it sounds to me like a combatives hybrid. Methinks they need some Greco from the altrecations I've seen.

Anecdote warning:)!!
Same bloke was jumped on in town outside a nightclub (out of uniform) and took a few slaps and got put on his back. He was trying to dig his fingers behind the guys jaw as your man was pounding on him.(as he'd been shown) Only a couple of bouncers pulled the guy away, he would have got serious damage done to him. After that he went looking for training outside and wound up in... Aikido!!

walshb

I agree fully with PMA, where ever there are Gardai and a fraca, stay well out. You're the one that will end up getin' a hiding. It's also known that wherever Gardai and batons and protesters are concerned, stay well out of the way. The Lansdowne riots and the mayday protests proved this...most will just swing at any damn moving target, whether or not that person is a threat or not. It applies to all plice forces throughout the world. The fact of the matter is that the Gardai cannot be trusted to carry weapons..because of the Gung HO' attitude, not all them may I add...but enough of them

breadmonkey

lol, this thread is destined for mayhem........

vasch_ro

walshb wrote:

I agree fully with PMA, where ever there are Gardai and a fraca, stay well out. You're the one that will end up getin' a hiding. It's also known that wherever Gardai and batons and protesters are concerned, stay well out of the way. The Lansdowne riots and the mayday protests proved this...most will just swing at any damn moving target, whether or not that person is a threat or not. It applies to all plice forces throughout the world. The fact of the matter is that the Gardai cannot be trusted to carry weapons..because of the Gung HO' attitude, not all them may I add...but enough of them

just wondering who or what are plice forces ??

walshb

Quick buddy, put in that 'o'....you observant freak......

Musashi

I've had a couple female Gardai train with me before and they had no clue how to armlock/bar or takedown anyone. I had a bit more idea but after seeing John Kav. in action not enough! Most Gardai fall back on previous boxing or Rugby to deal with violent situations.Those that don't wait for it to end and arrest the survivors, can't say I'd blame them since they are not trained to be riot cops or a front line force so to speak.
I'd like to learn more of the ISR Matrix stuff to help out the Gardai who may come training with us again but I think it's an SBG only thing? I'll ask John about it tomorrow and see if I can travel to learn it from him or something, I think it's important if Gardai want to train with us that they learn something useful.It's likely that some Gardai will come to our club as we are one of two options locally, and boxing doesn't really appeal to Gardai because of use of force issues.

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

but more because they don't do enough of it rather than the content.

Good point Roper!

entropi

To be honest, i think all gardai should be getting the H2H combat my little bro is taught in the Army, i mean come on.. they definately need it and it's so effective. It's something like Krav Maga i think, anyways i know the Israeli's developed it and so on etc...

I could see a drastic reduction in close quarters fighting with garda if scumbags knew they had this training

Dave Joyce

Not only should the Gardai be getting more H2H, but also how to use their batons more effectively would also be important. Most of the Sayoc and Atienza instructors teach LEO's (and also work with SWAT units and FBI units) and were amazed that our own force here receives so little training. Tuhon Ray Dionaldo teaches some SWAT guys in Florida and he was showing us some stuff you can do with a baton. He also explained how lifting a baton over your head to strike with can be bad PR for the officer (like those May Day incidents), but showed us how batons can be used more effectively AND it looks more PC but still hurts like hell. We also had Tuhon Tom train some security guys and he showed some excellant arrest and cuffiing techniques. Now I know he is a big man but with 2 people, it was just so easy to do the whole thing with an umcompliant/resisting detainee.
As a matter of interest Vasch_Ro, are extendable batons illegal for Garda usage as well as the general public or are members of the force ever allowed to use them?

pma-ire

Death Sentence wrote:

To be honest, i think all gardai should be getting the H2H combat my little bro is taught in the Army, i mean come on.. they definately need it and it's so effective. It's something like Krav Maga i think, anyways i know the Israeli's developed it and so on etc...

I could see a drastic reduction in close quarters fighting with garda if scumbags knew they had this training

I used to know two of the guys that started the "Unarmed Combat" stuff in the Army based in Collins Barricks. But from speaking to my wifes cousin (who just started his time in the army last year) it's only for a week or so and then it's dropped?? He was told to go off and look into something if he was interested??

On the Garda being feared with known combat skills! That won't happen until they get a rep for being able to take down a host of nasty scumbags, and then they will become targets for wannabe scumbags to prove themselves.

But once they have something solid to back themselves up they might stand a chance of survival.

pma-ire

Dave Joyce wrote:

Not only should the Gardai be getting more H2H, but also how to use their batons more effectively would also be important. Most of the Sayoc and Atienza instructors teach LEO's (and also work with SWAT units and FBI units) and were amazed that our own force here receives so little training. Tuhon Ray Dionaldo teaches some SWAT guys in Florida and he was showing us some stuff you can do with a baton. He also explained how lifting a baton over your head to strike with can be bad PR for the officer (like those May Day incidents), but showed us how batons can be used more effectively AND it looks more PC but still hurts like hell. We also had Tuhon Tom train some security guys and he showed some excellant arrest and cuffiing techniques. Now I know he is a big man but with 2 people, it was just so easy to do the whole thing with an umcompliant/resisting detainee.
As a matter of interest Vasch_Ro, are extendable batons illegal for Garda usage as well as the general public or are members of the force ever allowed to use them?

Spot on Dave! They do need extensive training in the use of the batton, and this is what I was touching on in my first post. I think that they should invite in specialist instructors from either other police forces, or experienced MA'ists to give them some skills in the areas that they are lacking.

There should really be a proper section of the Gardai that could cordinate this!

I'm sure that extendable battons are still illegal in Ireland? The UK police have a nifty side batton with and extendable shaft! I have even seen it used to great effect to lock a guy up to be cuffed on the ITV news a few years ago at some anti-war rally!!

In all it would'int be a bad idea to have the Gardai do some combat work a few times a month even!!

vasch_ro

Dave Joyce wrote:

As a matter of interest Vasch_Ro, are extendable batons illegal for Garda usage as well as the general public or are members of the force ever allowed to use them?

no just illegal for the public, they are on issue to The Public Order Units at present (riot squad) and on a pilot in the city centre

vasch_ro

pma-ire wrote:

In all it would'int be a bad idea to have the Gardai do some combat work a few times a month even!!

I agree, but are you familiar with the concepts of operational budgets ?

vasch_ro

pma-ire wrote:

In all it would'int be a bad idea to have the Gardai do some combat work a few times a month even!!

we do its called work !!!!

Roper

vasch_ro wrote:

we do its called work !!!!

Hope you don't see too much of it!

Question for you. Having met you, you're a big fella, you must be 6'4" or thereabouts, 95kgs???? I'm not too far off there I'd say. So obviously you have a physical advantage in a confrontation. How do your smaller workmates get on? Does the stuff you're thought depend on attributes in your opinion?

That's more than one question I know!

largewang

vasch_ro wrote:

just wondering who or what are plice forces ??

Yeah I agree what a chump. if your gonna argue at least get the spelling right!!!