Tv3 To Go Widescreen??????

Widescreen

Hi Folks,

I've attached a message from the Tv3 website which dates back almost a year. I 've sent them several e-mails on the subject asking when they will go widescreen but have never even got the courtesy of a response. Anyone out there want to take up the mantle on this and pressurise them??? :mad:

On the positive side they have a newly designed website which is way better than what it was! http://www.tv3.ie

November 30th 2004

TV3 SWITCHES TO WIDESCREEN
TV3 is pleased to announce that it will commence widescreen broadcasting in mid-2005. While the network has been capable of widescreen broadcasting since its inception in 1998 it is only recently that the amount of available widescreen programming has reached a level to make the service a consistent one for the viewer.

This a further enhancement of TV3's services and a reflection of our firm commitment to evolve with technological advances, which ultimately serve Irish viewers.

TV3 will be available on widescreen on Digital Cable and Digital Satellite, subject to arrangements being finalised with the digital platform operators. TV3 will continue to be available in standard form on the analogue terrestrial network and on analogue cable for the foreseeable future to facilitate viewers with non-widescreen TV sets.

TV3 Director of Operations and Technology, Peter Ennis said: "We are delighted to be able to make this change to provide an even better service to our viewers and advertisers, so that the exciting and entertaining range of TV3 programming will now look even better - and all at no cost to the taxpayer and viewer."

Round Cable

I asked them a few months back, they said they'd be broadcasting in widescreen by the end of the year, we'll see.

Mossy Monk

they said mid 05, now its the end of the year. i am waiting for the Summer 06 announcement

TV3 are a joke and best of all it is license free :rolleyes:

watty

No-one will do true animorphic (or full non-animorphic 16:9 PAL PLUS) on analog. Though the specs and even many 4:3 TVs support it.

Switching to WS production and distribution of 14:9 compromise letter box from 16:9 animorphic on Digital gives lower quality pictures on analog.

There is no Irish Digital Platform. Sky is Pay only for RTE/ TV3 and cable is only true digital as Pay service and only fully digital feed in some areas.

Most Chorus Digital MMDS seems to gfed from analog sources though I could be wrong.

So what proportion of licence payers get enhanced viewing from Widescreen, and what proportion get a reduction in picture resolution?

watty

P.S.
While RTE gets most of the licence money (not all at all), the money is a tax on watching ANY telly, even if you have only a Dish for Vietnamese TV only.

Sponge Bob

TV3 are a crap station with only about 75% geeographic coverage in whatever ratio , I'd expect them to provide a service nationwide first

RainyDay

watty wrote:

No-one will do true animorphic (or full non-animorphic 16:9 PAL PLUS) on analog. Though the specs and even many 4:3 TVs support it.

Switching to WS production and distribution of 14:9 compromise letter box from 16:9 animorphic on Digital gives lower quality pictures on analog.

There is no Irish Digital Platform. Sky is Pay only for RTE/ TV3 and cable is only true digital as Pay service and only fully digital feed in some areas.

Most Chorus Digital MMDS seems to gfed from analog sources though I could be wrong.

So what proportion of licence payers get enhanced viewing from Widescreen, and what proportion get a reduction in picture resolution?

Please help a novice interpret this - Does this mean that I'd really be better with an old-fashioned 16:9 TV if I'm using an analogue signal, as any other option involves some manipulation of the picture?

Has anyone got any statistics for the proportion of the original source material being broadcast on terrestrial today which is actually filmed in WS?

dmeehan

Sponge Bob wrote:

TV3 are a crap station with only about 75% geeographic coverage in whatever ratio , I'd expect them to provide a service nationwide first

isnt tv3's network coverage provided by RTE?

Mossy Monk

i belive they pay RTÉ a fee to be carried on various transmitters

DMC

Exactly the same way that Today FM pay RTÉNL (That's RTÉ Network Limited), but the difference is that Today FM pay to get nearly total national coverage, and TV3 don't.

watty

RainyDay wrote:

Please help a novice interpret this - Does this mean that I'd really be better with an old-fashioned 16:9 TV if I'm using an analogue signal, as any other option involves some manipulation of the picture?

Has anyone got any statistics for the proportion of the original source material being broadcast on terrestrial today which is actually filmed in WS?

A bit more complicated.

Originally Cinema was mostly "Academy" format, which is similar to shape of "old fashoned TV" and is ratio of width:height of 4:3, i.e. 9" wide means 12" across.

Cinema originally used 35mm film, shot at right angles to 35mm camera, so cinema film frame is smaller and width = width of film. Still Camera camera height = width of fim. The hieght can be anything less, by using a "matte", a mask, making the picture seem wider than tall.

When TV was invented they moved to making more wider matted (less height) films. This wasted film fram, so Panavison lens was invent. It squeezed the image horizontally and full frame height was used (no matte).
On projection a similar lens reverses the effect. Looking at the film frame the people look skinny & tall and wheels are oval.

Since film is analog (no pixels), this works well. Also from 1950s to 1970s the film improved (finer grain faster), so less light or sharper image was possible.

This called an animorphic image, i.e. it is not the same magnification from "real" life or project in Horizontal & Vertical directions.

Agin they decided to use a "matte", this means on edit from negative to print they could do three things,
1) Adjust the left/right and up/down framing to avoid mic boom, pylons etc.
2) Have more artistic control of widescreen ratio (1.66 for Dr. Strangelove to 1.3 approx Ben Hur). Typical features such as "Spiderman" are 1.85:1, which is slightly wider than Widescreen TV of 16:9 = 1.78:1
3) Re matte, while moving left or right in a 4:3 frame, for TV. Called 4:3 Pan & Scan. Set top boxes or DVD players do NOT do true cinema matted Pan&Scan, they statically chop the edges off on the widescreen image. True Pan& Scan is edited by the production company and may "ping pong " back & forth with the action in a Widescreen shot.

Hence a Film on VHS or shown 4:3 TV may have some more above and below the original Cinema release (OAR = "original Aspect Ratio"), but a film shown on TV in Widescreen or DVD to a 4:3 set, if set to "fill the screen" chops the sides off simply without following action left & right (not true pan & Scan).

The "letterbox" option for 4:3 TVs (old TVs) resamples the 576 lines to less lines buting many black lines above and below the image. You do see the entire image, but vertical resolution is reduced compared with true 16:9 widescreen viewing.

Modern Philips, Sony &Mitsubishi "old shape" 4:3 TVs, and some others have a trick though. If you set the DVD player or Sky Digibox to "widescreen" or 16:9 rather that the "4:3 letterbox" or "4:3 P&S", you get a TRUE animorphic 16:9 picture. You might need to select a menu fuction, though with a SCART lead and digibox set correctly it will change automatically. The TV reduces the height of ALL the lines as if it had a Widescreen tube. It is true Widescreen.

The 16:9 TV setting does nothing if the transmission is non-animorphic, i.e. 4:3.

In WS (16:9 = animorphic) the picture quality in "optical lines per inch" is reduced in the horizontal direction as the MPEG2 data is IDENTICAL to 4:3, a wider picture is NOT sent, just a flag to say the display must stretch the picture horizontally.

So ALL TV animorphic widescreen is a reduction in visible resolution compared with 4:3 material, as the number of horizontal pixels are fixed.
It is however an improvement for CINEMA material over letterboxing (very reduced vertical sharpness) or 4:3 Pan&Scan or 4:3 crop (loss of image entirely).

What does this mean when buying a TV?
Well here is the Emperor's new clothes!

A CRT (tube) based 16:9 TV will show older 4:3 Cinema & TV with black borders. The quality is the same as a 4:3 TV of the same height, i.e. a 28" WS TV is like a 15" old 4:3 TV for non-widescreen!

An LCD or Plasma Wiidescreen (16:9) has fixed pixels unlike a CRT tube. A 16:9 full resolution DVD matches pixel for pixel (BBC1). 540 horizonal pixel Satellite transmissions (e.g. ITV3 & MM ) or SVCD may have scalling artifacts as the pixels can't match up.

For 4:3 images, instead of reduced width with blank tube at either side, the Plasma or LCD can't shrink the pixel size like tube (CRT) based 16:9 WS TV. Less pixels are used, so sharpness is lost and artifacts may appear.

A modern 28" 4:3 shape TV will shown any resolution of Satellite image that is 4:3 perfectly, and if menu ets is correct give a true perfect 27" WS 16:9 image by reduceing height, not letterboxing (c.f. the 28" WS giving 15" size 4:3 pictures.

An LCD has another two problems:
1) The colours on pale / pastel shades may be grey, it uses coloured filters on a monochrome LCD. The dyes may fade in direct sunlight, especially the blue
2) The lamp(s) to backlight the panel half in brightness each 2000 to 4000 hours. CRTs can be adjusted with brightness controll as they fade a little, I have a 1976 Colour TV that is still perfect brightness & Colour.

Good LCD or DLP projectors the lamp can be replaced and really good ones may use dicroic filters (no dye to fade) and have good colour redition on pastel shades.

Plasma TVs are just big. They suffer from burn-in of static logos or the "curtains" of watching 4:3 TV at correct shape, or 2.35:1 Cinema Letterbox ing. They have a shorter life than the LCD backlight. There is no "backlight" the dots fade out.

Conculsion:
28" WS TVs are too small for 4:3 pictures. Go for at least 32" in small room, bigger for a large room.

You will always have "black bars" as lots of good stuff is 4:3 and major Cinema features are letterboxed as 2.35:1 WS is much wider than TV Widescreen 1.78:1 = 16:9

LCD TVs are poor compared with good CRT. STILL. Very poor for anything not highest resolution 16:9 (i.e. most TV on Satellite & Terrestrial)

For ANALOG TV transmission 16:9 Animorphic transmissions are "resampled" with loss of quality to 14:9 "compromise" letter box with both loss on edges of image and reduction of vertical resolution.

The Best Digibox setting for ALL programs on all 16:9/WS sets and "good" 4:3 TVs that do 16:9 mode is 16:9. For old 4:3 sets that can't shrink the height the 4:3 Letterbox setting is best.

The 16:9 setting tells the Digibox to do nothing, the other settings ONLY affect WS 16:9 transmissions, not 4:3 transmissions.

At less that 36" WS, a modern 28" 4:3 set (possibly under 300 Euro) that does true WS 16:9 mode (the shop won't know. Sony, Phillips, Mitsubishi usally good, but play with remote).

When buying a Widescreen TV, think only of the HEIGHT. When buying a 4:3TV think only of the Width.

Most so called HD Ready LCD and Plasma WS TV do not do full High Definition, they simply can display it. Non HD ready sets can't show HD at all. If you really want HD, make sure it has at least 1920 x 1080 real pixels. A "1 million pixels" HD Ready LCD I saw obviusly cheats as ENTRY level EUROPEAN HD TV needs 2,073,600 pixels, i.e. more than 2 Million. HD TV will also have higher resolutions. Go for an UXVGA DLP or LCD video projector if you want regular TV and HDTV today, oit also has enough pixels that non-full resolution Satellite, Terrestrial, 4:3 and SVCD won't create artifacts

watty

No stats, though I beleive all TG4 commisioned and in house shot material is WS since day 1.

Note that TV stations do not always pay for OAR (original Aspect Ratio) Films, sometimes it is edited for TV/VHS 4:3 P&S version sometimes a 16:9 which maight be cropped from a wider aspect ratio.

The BBC has horrid habit of cropping & resampling 4:3 material to make it WS and even worse showing 4:3 material in a "curtained frame" (black bands at side) in 16:9 animorphic. This results in 4:3 Letterbox via digibox or FTA box having a black border all around and on WS mode 4:3 TVs running animorphic from Digibox or FTA box, a true WS picture, that has a 4:3 in middle, i.e. a shrunk picture with balck all around.

ITV seems to be able to switch WS on an Advert by advert basis (I see the 4:3 and 16:9 OSD message pop up many times on my TV during ad breaks!).

hshortt

That's an incredibly detailed post watty. Thanks!! :eek:

watty

Oops...

Didn't mean to do such a long post. sorry for not proof reading and Spell checking too!

Still it will either answer a lot of questions or confuse the hell out of ye.

Sparky

watty wrote:

Oops...

Didn't mean to do such a long post. sorry for not proof reading and Spell checking too!

Still it will either answer a lot of questions or confuse the hell out of ye.

Very good post, not confusing to me at all, cheers;)

Sponge Bob

DMC wrote:

Today FM pay to get nearly total national coverage, and TV3 don't.

So TV3 have a national licence and refuse to provide national coverage by not paying for it.

They also knew how much it would cost before they ever applied for the licence .

National Licence = National Coverage !!!!

Mossy Monk

agreed and national coverage shouldnt mean satellite. it is disgraceful they aren't on all RTÉ transmitters seeing as they all have a space allocated for TV3

watty

Even RTE's NAtional coverage is nothing like the BBC / ITV & C4 in UK. Many areas are very poor signal and some places none.

TV3 coverage is lower than "Five" because they won't pay to be on the smaller area transmitters.

Like here, the UK band plan was designed for 4 channels. Five was supposed to be Digital only, but the Digital Terrestrial and Digital Satellite wasn't in UK, so they tried to fit it as best they could, with many needing a second aerial. Only 80% coverage so they had it on Sky Analog from almost day1 (FTA).

Here we are in a mess because we are nearly 10 years behind on plan to switch off VHF and have a single 4 ch UHF band plan (which is a mess) so people can have one aerial.

So in South dublin with PERFECT all four channels on UHF single aerial most folks have cable or Satellite, and in West etc either they can't get TG4 at all or need a VHF and UHF aerial (even worse for TV3).


A bit OT for satellite, but it shows how a FTV or FTA system is needed in Ireland. We are NEVER going to have much better terrestrial coverage, Digital Terrestrial continues to look like a dead duck, so even with existing 4 chs (never mind the extra Irish channels promised with DTT) how are people going to get Widescreen without and extra subscription (and most Cable & MMDS probabily hasn't got WS, considering how poor the digital roll out is and proportion of digital with analog pickup feed!).

Sponge Bob

watty wrote:

So in South dublin with PERFECT all four channels on UHF single aerial most folks have cable or Satellite, and in West etc either they can't get TG4 at all or need a VHF and UHF aerial (even worse for TV3).

Quite right Watty. The most tragic thing of all is that you need 2 aerials to get Irish National TV in the WINDIEST bit of the country no less .

The culprits........ so you can ask directly about this sh1te state of affairs are

rick.hetherington@tv3.ie their MD
kathy.curran@tv3.ie their Moneybag
peter.ennis@tv3.ie Head of the Broadcasting Tech and Network

and

david.mcmunn@tv3.ie their Head 'Make Excuses to Comreg' person

JBoyle4eva

Anyone who wanted to be a programme viewer for TV3 have missed their chance.

http://www.tv3.ie/careers.php?action=view&id=14

RainyDay

Just noticed RTE's widescreen status explained on Aertel.

wheresmejumper

RTE's widescreen broadcasting is still amateurish - watching the Cyprus Ireland game at the moment, initially impressed that it was a widescreen signal, surprised the cypriots were broadcasting the match in widescreen since normally you don't see that outside the UK and now Ireland.

Realized after a while that all RTE are doing is zooming into a 4:3 signal and chopping off the top and bottom, fairly obvious since the camera framing is wrong, say Shay Given does a kickout the picture doesn't show the top of his head. People running down the wing disappear out of picture though still close to the play.

BBC ITV would transmit it 4:3 with black vertical bars

Also they don't check that all important screen info is in the 4:3 frame, to ensure if someone has digital and a 4:3 TV they won't miss anything. RTE put the scoreboard for this match halfway between the 16:9 and 4:3 region, another example is for the weather, the positioning of the weather person should either be fully in the 4:3 or completely outside, RTE allow the person to move anywhere so sometimes a 4:3 viewer will only see the nose of the presenter, with the rest of the body randomly drifting in and out of the picture.

Only recently they were claiming there was no need to go widescreen and now that they've changed they've overnight gone to a position where they don't seem to care what people with 4:3 screens see.

DMC

This is not satellite specific, moved to Broadcasting.

DMC

Someone should fling this at RTÉ Sport producers....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/delivering_quality/pdf/tv/tv_widescreen_book.pdf

Mossy Monk

wheresmejumper wrote:

all RTE are doing is zooming into a 4:3 signal and chopping off the top and bottom

yes, saw that myself. looked terrible

watty

Since 4:3 TVs a penalised and all 16:9 TVs can show 4:3 with curtains, NOONE should EVER chop 4:3 to WS, or put 4:3 in an animorphic frame.

It suggests a total lack of understanding. It gives NO advantage to WS TV users and penalizes 4:3TVs, It greatly penalises "Hybrid" 4:3 TVs that automatically display animorphic TV as if they have a WS tube, as they in case of 4:3 frammed b=pic get a picture with border on all four sides, also 4:3 TV in Digibox 4:3L mode.

STupid, Stupid.

Drag00n79

Ah... it all makes sense now. I noticed sometimes the player on the ball on the far side of the pitch was not in the frame. I thought the Cypriot cameraman had dozed off!! Seriously though, they are a joke at this stage.

Telefís

A joke indeed - that is a disgraceful thoroughly unprofessional practice and they know it. What is so irritating is that they know they can get away with it.
I don't watch sport on telly, but from what I can gather RTÉ continuously make a bags of aspect ratios with sport output.


They are so pathetic across the board it just beggars belief - why in the name of all that is sane are all links on Prime Time stretched to 16:9! Any satellite link-ups with London, or regional studios around Ireland, are shot in 4:3 and then laughably streched to 16:9!
You should have seen it last night, and other nights - my jaw literally hit the floor seeing the sh*te they were outputting. This is a national broadcasting service!
Ireland's state broadcaster! And yet they're deliberately outputting something a five year old messing with the remote control would seek to remedy in 2 seconds!

There was an expert doctor speaking on PT, and aside from the fact that he was pathetically slouched back in his chair because the location director couldn't be arsed to get him to sit up, he was then streched to the ninth degree via the aspect ratio! Of all images to stretch, it ain't an MCU of a seated person :eek:

ALL of Prime Time links since the 16:9 launch in Sept have been stretched. Likewise their astons are merely their 4:3 versions streched to 16:9! It just beggars belief! They couldn't even be arsed quickly composing some 16:9 versions!
And not only that, safe areas are just off the scale with PT, with as much as a third of text completely wiped from astons when viewed in 14:9! It'd make you want to cry.
Indeed PT have always been useless at aston safe areas - even in 4:3 broadcasts the text just walked off the screen!
Can you imagine Newsnight getting away with this ****e? Can you imagine the reaction after a single broadcast of such incompetence?
Can you even imagine the apathy and professional uninterest in an organisation that allows this to happen?! What is going on in Montrose?

Likewise The Late Late Show's opening sig is being broadcast letterboxed in 16:9! It was composed for 16:9 when 4:3 broadcasts were still in operation last Sept, but when 16:9 came on stream this Sept they didn't bother converting it to 16:9 as it was composed for, so now it is still letterboxed when viewed on 16:9 and doubly letterboxed when watching on analogue via 14:9!

RTÉ are so incompetent with aspect ratios the mind just boggles at it all. Not that it wasn't expected; I think we all anticipated this, just not that it would be as bad as it is.

Prime Time just takes the biscuit though, it really does. A broadcaster in south-eastern Mongolia wouldn't dare output picture content stretched, and especially that of a standard MCU of a person.
How dare they take us for a bunch of fools - it is this more than anything that is so offensive about RTÉ's aspect ratios. They clearly think we are idiots.

Juxtaposer

Can anyone confirm that TV3 has yet to go widescreen?

lots of their shows are widescreen on my tv but that could have a lot to do with options on my remotes (widescreen tv and ntl remote)


thanks

Mossy Monk

not widescreen last i checked