SA's inexorable descent down the tubes

The Corinthian

It would appear that South Africa is now well on it’s way to becoming another example of successful African democracy, along the lines of Zimbabwe:

But Deputy President Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka says the pace of reform should be speeded up - as in neighbouring Zimbabwe, where most white-owned land has been seized by the state.

"There needs to be a bit of oomph. That's why we may need the skills of Zimbabwe to help us," she said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4273890.stm

With sentiments such as these, I really do wonder how long before we see another populist Mugabe-esque regime take over, capitalizing on promises of free property, until they’ve run out of land to confiscate and eventually come to us to cancel all the debts they’ve run up in the meantime. What’s slowly unfolding in SA is actually like watching a car crash happen in slow motion, tbh.

I invite the usual bed-wetters to remind us now how Africa’s plight is really all our fault. I need the comic relief, mirthless as it may ultimately be.

Ajnag

I invite the usual bed-wetters to remind us now how Africa’s plight is really all our fault.

I wasnt aware Ireland had an african colony.

county

yes the tables have turned some what for the whites in SA,but it was always going to happen,the democratic republic of south africa,makes me laugh!!!

mike65

Ajnag wrote:

I wasnt aware Ireland had an african colony.

Most of Sub-Saharan Africa has been an Irish colony its just the foot soldiers came armed with a bible...

As for SA, its the same old same old. Bad Politics steering the masses to thier poverty. Whatsmore the South African body politic is home grown and educated so the left can't blame Sandhurst.

Mind you Megabe was schooled by Jesuits.

And lest people think Phumzile_Mlambo-Ngcuka is some old buffer with autocratic tendencies here's her profile which makes her thinking all the worse.

Though she's not without some controversy.

She has been Minister of Minerals and Energy since 17 June 1999. During her tenure, the parastatal company PetroSA made an advance payment of R15 million to a private company Imvume, which in turn made a R11 million donation to the ANC ahead of the 2004 elections. It is alleged that Imvume has close links to the ANC, the so-called 'Oilgate' scandal.

Did I mention Mubage?

Mike.

Ajnag

Most of Sub-Saharan Africa has been an Irish colony its just the foot soldiers came armed with a bible...

Lol, True, but would that shoulded they not have been counted as foot soldiers of rome

One thing I seem to notice about africa, is that many of the colonial resource companys still seem to be there operating from the start. You would wonder, if they paid compo to the countrys for the colonial periods and second what they are paying to their modern day hosts.

Part of the entire african problem seems to be an issue of the simple inability put infrastructure in place due to the various negative factors involved.

Another Irony is to note so called "african-americans" with "bling" gold and jewels that most africans will never see a red cent from.

LostinBlanch

Speaking of the Mugabe thing I seem to remember a short excerpt from an interview about 3 or 4 years ago where Mandela put his oar in. He said something along the lines of "there is a time for the people to take up a rifle and defend themselves". Strangely enough it didn't get more airplay, only saw it the once i.e. not repeated on later editions of the news etc.

I remember wondering why at the time. I would have thought that it was strange that it just seemed to drop off the radar. As for SA's views on Zimbabwe you just have to remember that Mbeki and Mugabe were comrades frighting against the Boetha regime in SA. I think they went to the same "revolutionary university," can't remember the name but it was run by the Chinese Government, might have been in Lusaka or somewhere.

Still I hope that things in South Africa turn around, they cannot afford to have a brain drain otherwise they'll slide further into the ****. Edit I meant a continued brain drain

The Corinthian

Ajnag wrote:

One thing I seem to notice about africa, is that many of the colonial resource companys still seem to be there operating from the start. You would wonder, if they paid compo to the countrys for the colonial periods and second what they are paying to their modern day hosts.

Crap. You’re implying that if compensation were paid that it would actually solve something. In reality all it would salve is the consciences of a few middle class kids who feel guilty for what’s on their Visa bill this month.

Part of the entire african problem seems to be an issue of the simple inability put infrastructure in place due to the various negative factors involved.

Factors that no doubt all originate from Western interference, no doubt - be still my bleeding heart :rolleyes:

Another Irony is to note so called "african-americans" with "bling" gold and jewels that most africans will never see a red cent from.

You mean Americans. Their racial origin does not make them in any way more or less responsible for the African continent. Indeed, your assumption is actually quite racist.

zepp

I think South Africans were a bit niave like the Irish in the Early part of this century. They whough getting rid of the oppressor would instantly inproved the situation for the Black population. This hasn 't happened and people are getting pissed off at the scandels they want change. So the government to keep power is going to give them a popular change even though it maybe be dubious econimics

murphaph

zepp wrote:

I think South Africans were a bit niave like the Irish in the Early part of this century. They whough getting rid of the oppressor would instantly inproved the situation for the Black population. This hasn 't happened and people are getting pissed off at the scandels they want change. So the government to keep power is going to give them a popular change even though it maybe be dubious econimics

Exactly. They'll take the land off the white farmers (who usually employ heaps of black labour) and hand it over to friends of the rulimng party etc, people who can't farm, thus leaving one less farm to produce food, one more homeless white farmer, heaps of unemployed black labourers and one git whose friends with the ruling party sitting in the old farmhouse. Africa's fcuked I'm afraid-and it isn't all the fault of the greedy white man/European colonialist/capilalist americans/communist soviets etc. The africans have a lot to answer for themselves.

Endurance Man

Crumbs, i wish i new more about politics so i could defend SA . Its a grand country, has its problems like every other country, but i think its improved hugely. The gap between white/black is narrowing and i think this is great, they just need to try and keep a balance. I dont believe the redistribution of land is the worst idea, as long as it is controlled and done fairly.
The weather is great to .

Ajnag

Crap. You’re implying that if compensation were paid that it would actually solve something.

Am I now?
Well thanks for speaking for me, now let me have my say shall we?
No what Im saying is that Im intrested in the dynamics that have let this situation come to pass. No doubt part of the reason is endemic corruption in many african nations, same reason that compensation wouldnt actually solve all that much on its own.

Factors that no doubt all originate from Western interference, no doubt - be still my bleeding heart

Ohh arnt we the macho man on the net, meh pathetic really if you ask me. Of course being such a tough man means you can infer what ever you want about my comments cos I must be a bleeding heart pussy...that right? :rolleyes:

No cor, lack of infrastructure is exactly that reguardless of the cause's involved, without decent infrastructer there cant be much progress either socially or economicly.

But Im a bleeding heart right, I couldnt or wouldnt know about the factors involved in international development cos in fluffy fluffy land if we all hug each other it'll all go away... :rolleyes:

And now for the best bit of all:

You mean Americans. Their racial origin does not make them in any way more or less responsible for the African continent. Indeed, your assumption is actually quite racist.

First you call me a bleeding heart and now you call me a racist no less!
Wow who would have thought, theres such a thing as bleeding heart racists. Man I wish we had the biglaugh smiley right now. Indeed I challenge you to prove my assertion as racist, well I would but sure while the goings good lets just put paid to your personal attack and libel.

You mean Americans.

Well duh!

Their racial origin does not make them in any way more or less responsible for the African continent.

And I fully agree, how ever those that Identify themselves as "African Americans" seem to profess an Identity with the continent and as such it would seem a little hypocritical to use the Identity and then turn round and do nothing or ignore the realitys present.
Irish Americans often sent money and support to this state, As no doubt do many African Americans, But I do find the culture of bling hypocritical, considering that the profits go to countrys and investors other then africa. Indeed one might think that the Idea of "african americans" helping africans through trade mightnt be so racist.........

Now cor, I am tempted to return the personal abuse but....well

The Corinthian

Ajnag wrote:

Well thanks for speaking for me, now let me have my say shall we?
No what Im saying is that Im intrested in the dynamics that have let this situation come to pass. No doubt part of the reason is endemic corruption in many african nations, same reason that compensation wouldnt actually solve all that much on its own.

Actually you wondered on the effects of Western post-colonial companies paying “compo to the countrys for the colonial periods and second what they are paying to their modern day hosts”. I even quoted you on it, so don’t backtrack.

Ohh arnt we the macho man on the net, meh pathetic really if you ask me. Of course being such a tough man means you can infer what ever you want about my comments cos I must be a bleeding heart pussy...that right? :rolleyes:

Don’t get your knickers in a twist

No cor, lack of infrastructure is exactly that reguardless of the cause's involved, without decent infrastructer there cant be much progress either socially or economicly.

Are you then saying that you’re not blaming the white guys? And who would you point the finger at for such lack of infrastructure?

But Im a bleeding heart right, I couldnt or wouldnt know about the factors involved in international development cos in fluffy fluffy land if we all hug each other it'll all go away... :rolleyes:

You’ve to date not actually displayed any understanding of macroeconomics, TBH.

First you call me a bleeding heart and now you call me a racist no less!

Actually there’s nothing stopping someone being a bleeding heart and a racist. It’s called hypocrisy. You’ll find there’s a lot of it about.

And I fully agree, how ever those that Identify themselves as "African Americans" seem to profess an Identity with the continent and as such it would seem a little hypocritical to use the Identity and then turn round and do nothing or ignore the realitys present.

Actually very few ‘African Americans” claim any identity with the African continent. The term is purely a politically correct ethnic label. You actually assumed this to be a de facto relationship, which given that it is purely based upon race, can only be racist.

Ajnag

Lets see where to start with this little wonder...

Actually you wondered on the effects of Western post-colonial companies paying “compo to the countrys for the colonial periods and second what they are paying to their modern day hosts”. I even quoted you on it, so don’t backtrack.

The effects eh? Well I could repost my entire second msg in the thread but that would be tedious no? So lets see exactly what I said:

One thing I seem to notice about africa, is that many of the colonial resource companys still seem to be there operating from the start. You would wonder, if they paid compo to the countrys for the colonial periods and second what they are paying to their modern day hosts.

Nope, Its quite clear to see exactly what I said, I was simply wondering what was agreed and paid at the end of the colonial period and the post colonial agreements.

Not exactly:

Actually you wondered on the effects of Western post-colonial companies paying

But no doubt you'll come back and say different. If I may ask what exactly is it your trying to say here?
And can it be asked with out the melodrama "my bleeding heart" ?

But of course lets make this a little more complex, It go's from first:

Crap. You’re implying that if compensation were paid that it would actually solve something.

to this:

Actually you wondered on the effects of Western post-colonial companies paying “compo to the countrys for the colonial periods and second what they are paying to their modern day hosts”.

From what I supposedly implyed to what I supposedly wondered..Hmm oh sorry am I backtracking?

Don’t get your knickers in a twist

For your mirth and the record I dont like "bleeding hearts" or "Racists" and you managed to imply both on my part in what was only your first reply to me. Sadly your argument or what ever it was meant to be flew out the window on the way

Are you then saying that you’re not blaming the white guys? And who would you point the finger at for such lack of infrastructure?

Well Im not blaming an Individual group if thats what your trying to insinuate(course now im racist against "white guys" now as well :rolleyes: ). Its quite simple really, I blame who ever acted against an individual countrys intrest both foregin and domestic.

Will that suffice?
Or is their something Im implying that I dont know about?

You’ve to date not actually displayed any understanding of macroeconomics, TBH.

In this thread or in general on this board. Nice swipe tho.
However are you implying that macroeconomics is the only factor involved in a nations development? No role of ngo's, goverment, regional politics, legal systems as well as the native social conditons? No point having a trade policy if theres nothing to trade now is there?
May I also ask what qualifys you to make this statement?

Actually there’s nothing stopping someone being a bleeding heart and a racist. It’s called hypocrisy. You’ll find there’s a lot of it about.

At least theres one thing Ill agree on.

Actually very few ‘African Americans” claim any identity with the African continent. The term is purely a politically correct ethnic label. You actually assumed this to be a de facto relationship, which given that it is purely based upon race, can only be racist.

Hmm oh yeah?

Its amazing what the web can do, For example upon looking at wiki:

The Associated Press stylebook states that the preferred term is black. "African American" should only be used in quotations or with the names of organizations or if individuals describe themselves so.

Now lets see what I said...

Another Irony is to note so called "african-americans" with "bling" gold and jewels that most africans will never see a red cent from.

how ever those that Identify themselves as "African Americans" seem to profess an Identity with the continent and as such it would seem a little hypocritical to use the Identity and then turn round and do nothing or ignore the realitys present.

I used quotations to refer to a percise demographic. Now read it slowly because Im starting to wonder what you mean by "african american".You werent honestly suggesting that it was accurate that all black people describe themselves by that description?

But Im not going to bitch about all your baseless inferances just to turn round and try an act of pedantry on you, Youve been your own best detractor.

Hmmmm... bed wetter's indeed.

The Corinthian

Ajnag wrote:

Nope, Its quite clear to see exactly what I said, I was simply wondering what was agreed and paid at the end of the colonial period and the post colonial agreements.

So there was nothing inferred in that bit of musing then? :rolleyes:

Your ‘wondering’ was simply another example of the old “we owe them compensation” sentiment that is repeatedly cited as a magic pill for Africa’s woes. If not, why bring it up? What would it’s relevancy be? Otherwise compensation is irrelevant to helping Africa out - or it’s not, you tell me; bed-wetter or not?

From what I supposedly implyed to what I supposedly wondered..Hmm oh sorry am I backtracking?

Where did that suddenly become a question of the “endemic corruption in many african nations”? After all your response to my challenging your ‘wondering’ point was to change completely what you were discussing.

For your mirth and the record I dont like "bleeding hearts" or "Racists" and you managed to imply both on my part in what was only your first reply to me. Sadly your argument or what ever it was meant to be flew out the window on the way

If it was too complicated for you I might use finger puppets next time to help out your understanding.

Well Im not blaming an Individual group if thats what your trying to insinuate(course now im racist against "white guys" now as well :rolleyes: ). Its quite simple really, I blame who ever acted against an individual countrys intrest both foregin and domestic.

Will that suffice?
Or is their something Im implying that I dont know about?

A non-answer - you have actually managed to avoid pointing the finger at anyone, so it doesn’t suffice. So, again, are you then saying that you’re not blaming the white guys? And who would you point the finger at for such lack of infrastructure?

A straight answer would be nice.

However are you implying that macroeconomics is the only factor involved in a nations development? No role of ngo's, goverment, regional politics, legal systems as well as the native social conditons? No point having a trade policy if theres nothing to trade now is there?

Do you actually know what macroeconomics is?

May I also ask what qualifys you to make this statement?

Knowing what macroeconomics is, for a start.

Its amazing what the web can do, For example upon looking at wiki:

Sorry, where does that imply that they identify in any way other than racially with the African continent? Indeed the article you quoted goes so far as to say that they identify with the African diaspora, rather than Africans themselves (which whom it points out they have practically nothing culturally in common with).

Ajnag

Your ‘wondering’ was simply another example of the old “we owe them compensation” sentiment that is repeatedly cited as a magic pill for Africa’s woes.

Oh but of course! I forgot! Your psychic after all.
Now Might I ask who this "we" is. Lol, go on! Off you go and show me the Irish Colonys. Lol.

Oh and LOOK!
See what I said, do you see magic pill of compensation in this sentence?

No what Im saying is that Im interested in the dynamics that have let this situation come to pass. No doubt part of the reason is endemic corruption in many African nations, same reason that compensation wouldn't actually solve all that much on its own.

Once again your trying put words in my mouth(or as close to the web equivalent). But so far to date in this argument, I have not had so much as an Iota of what exactly your argument is. Wasn't the topic SA, and yet here we have you worrying about what I think.
Indeed...

Otherwise compensation is irrelevant to helping Africa out - or it’s not, you tell me; bed-wetter or not?

So your telling me the nature of recourse exploitation agreements have no impact on a nations development, especially considering the material value of said resources?
So may I ask you:

Do you actually know what macroeconomics is?

Where did that suddenly become a question of the “endemic corruption in many African nations”? After all your response to my challenging your ‘wondering’ point was to change completely what you were discussing.

Its funny that you should mention finger puppets, guess you didn't read my last reply slowly enough to taken in the detail of what I actually posted and re quoted for you. Of course I now have to re quote my self to put that quote in context.

No doubt part of the reason is endemic corruption in many African nations,

Do you deny this? Can you post relevant links to show me otherwise? Once again your attacking my argument based on your opinion and quoting me out of context, so have you an actual argument or is this just an excerise in mental masturbation?

A non-answer - you have actually managed to avoid pointing the finger at anyone, so it doesn’t suffice. So, again, are you then saying that you’re not blaming the white guys? And who would you point the finger at for such lack of infrastructure?

Umm where exactly is it written that one entity has to be blamed for the results of history? So your looking for a straight answer?
Ok we've got an entire continent, still with me, you know a shítload of countrys all with very different historys. My last answer was as good as you'll get with out writing a thesis on the the history of the entire African continent.

But seeing as you insist and we're supposedly meant to be concentrating on SA, Well Can i blame apartheid and its antagonists? Can I blame the colonial activitys of the Dutch? Can I also blame the current anc govt and mbeki for aggravating the situation and taking the emphasis away from development?

Of course this wont be enough for you, but as we know you don't actually give a toss for the topic at hand.

Ill ask again what's your qualification to say you know the in's and outs of macroeconomics?
Nice dodge btw

May I also ask what qualifys you to make this statement?

Knowing what macroeconomics is, for a start.

:rolleyes:
Pithé...

So may I ask if you know what International development is?
Here let me save you the hassle: :rolleyes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_development

International development is a multidisciplinary field that may impact poverty reduction, governance, healthcare, education, crisis prevention and recovery, and economic restructuring.

Not quite pertaining to:

Macroeconomics is the study of the entire economy in terms of aggregate quantities such as the total amount of goods and services produced, total income earned, the level of employment of productive resources, and the general behaviour of prices. This is in contrast to microeconomics which is the study of the economic behaviour of individual consumers, firms, and industries.

I find it funny, you repeatedly accuse me of not knowing what macroeconomics is(the intellectual whoreage is killing me:rolleyes: ), But when I differentiate what development is without contradiction you go straight back to square one. So ok, lets pacify you then, Lets say I don't know what macro-economics is, show me how that in any way forwards your argument or contradicts any assumed knowledge on my part in this thread.
This should be fun...:rolleyes:

Sorry, where does that imply that they identify in any way other than racially with the African continent? Indeed the article you quoted goes so far as to say that they identify with the African diaspora, rather than Africans themselves (which whom it points out they have practically nothing culturally in common with).

So your saying that although they may Identify with the diaspora, Its in no way to hypocritical to go out and buy gold and jewels that dos no favour to those who current live in the original locality of that diaspora(I should attack your spelling of it btw ).

I don't know....To hold up the crimes of slavery and the crimes against the original African immigrants on one hand, while paying towards its ongoing colonial legacy on the other hand.......Draw what you want from that one.

oscarBravo

Endurance Man wrote:

I dont believe the redistribution of land is the worst idea, as long as it is controlled and done fairly.

"Fairly"? How do you "redistribute" land "fairly"?

Let me put the question another way: if you had land, and the government decided that someone else should own it - what would you consider "fair" under those circumstances?

The Corinthian

Ajnag wrote:

Oh but of course! I forgot! Your psychic after all.

No. Just brighter.

Now Might I ask who this "we" is. Lol, go on! Off you go and show me the Irish Colonys. Lol.

I’ve repeatedly said the West. Pay attention.

See what I said, do you see magic pill of compensation in this sentence?

I stand corrected. I should have pointed out that said compensation would not solve any of Africa’s woes - something you apparently disagree with.

So your telling me the nature of recourse exploitation agreements have no impact on a nations development, especially considering the material value of said resources?

I’d say the impact has been grossly exaggerated to the point that the true root problems are now ignored.

Its funny that you should mention finger puppets, guess you didn't read my last reply slowly enough to taken in the detail of what I actually posted and re quoted for you. Of course I now have to re quote my self to put that quote in context.

That was a non-answer. If you’re going to retort, do so, don’t waffle.

Do you deny this? Can you post relevant links to show me otherwise? Once again your attacking my argument based on your opinion and quoting me out of context, so have you an actual argument or is this just an excerise in mental masturbation?

Another non-answer. Are you avoiding the questions still? Third time: Are you then saying that you’re not blaming the white guys? And who would you point the finger at for such lack of infrastructure?

Of course this wont be enough for you, but as we know you don't actually give a toss for the topic at hand.

Get off the cross. Someone needs the wood.

Ill ask again what's your qualification to say you know the in's and outs of macroeconomics?

Degree in it. Presently working in finance. You?

I should attack your spelling of it btw

It’s spelt Diaspora.

Ajnag

No. Just brighter.

Lol, someone loves themselves, I knew their was a narrsiscistic complex somewhere in there.

I’ve repeatedly said the West. Pay attention.

In any case, I dont feel any part of a collective guilt. Sooo sorry to deny you.

I stand corrected. I should have pointed out that said compensation would not solve any of Africa’s woes - something you apparently disagree with.

Any? Not even contribute in monitary value towards solutions and creating infrastructure?

I’d say the impact has been grossly exaggerated to the point that the true root problems are now ignored.

Depending on who you listen to of course, But in terms of the public conscousness, your right in that many of the root problems are being ignored, sadly this to seems to extend to the political view as well.
In arguing vis á vis development have I not made it clear that I share this view?

That was a non-answer. If you’re going to retort, do so, don’t waffle.

What is this? An argument or a catfight?

Another non-answer. Are you avoiding the questions still? Third time: Are you then saying that you’re not blaming the white guys? And who would you point the finger at for such lack of infrastructure?

Lol, a non-answer in reply to an non-awnser. Simply refute what I said. And Ive made it perfectly clear that any critical analysis of the situation cannot be simply boiled down to a single point of blame, and to think you claim to be the brighter one

Degree in it. Presently working in finance. You?

Never claimed an expertise in it did I? .
But nice of you to finally let me know after x amount of posts. Just did a hdip in systems analysis, and from that I tend to view thing's in terms of systems and interactions.
Isnt there an element of this within economics and development?

It’s spelt Diaspora.

Lol, my mistake, but isnt pedantry fun?!?

The Corinthian

The Corinthian wrote:

No. Just brighter.

Ajnag wrote:

Lol, someone loves themselves, I knew their was a narrsiscistic complex somewhere in there.

Lads.
Inject pleasantaries into this debate and eject the tone ye are getting with one another or it's off to the thunderdome with this thread where (a)I don't have to read it and (b)I don't have to ban either of you.