Praise ???

peasant

Goffie's thread has brought this to the top of my mind, but since I don't want to address her specifically but everybody, i've started a new thread:

Why is it, that so many posters here come looking for praise of their actions rather than advice?

Why is it, that when giving advice, posters feel the urge to praise the half hearted "efforts" that have come before in order to keep the OP's attention and good will alive?

Proper animal husbandry needs hard work,commitment and some sacrifices. This should be done out of respect for the animal and naturally and willingly or not at all ...certainly not in pursuit of "praise".

But more and more people come here (and i will stick with dogs for this), having got a dog because they "wanted one" ...having only the most rudimentary knowledge of its needs and demands and very little respect for the animal. Some seem to believe that there is a God given right to dog ownership ...regardless of the animals needs. "My needs come first ...and I want a dog"

So they go out and get one and then come here looking for solutions to their problems (which in most cases are nothing other than sheer ignorance)

And then ...they get "praised" for the half-arsed "solutions" that they have come up with so far ...

Examples:

"oh, so you have a little pup, just weaned from its mother and you leave it alone most of the day and all of the night ...ah, but you got up at five the other morning to give it a walk ...WELL DONE"

"oh, so you got yourself a dog, you lock it out the back garden on its own all day, you give it no interaction and very little training ...ah, but you got it another dog for company ...WELL, ISNT THAT JUST GREAT"

Crap !!!

People like that deserve to be ...well i won't get into that ...but certainly not to be praised !!

But face them with the facts and they go into a sulk and the animal will probably suffer the more for it.
So everybody has to pack their criticism and advice into cotton wool.

More crap !!

People ...treat your animals with half the respect and "luuurve" that you demand from this board and you will be fine ...but do it !!
Grow up and respect the responsibilty that you took on ...you wanted it, you take care of it ...properly !

I for once am sick and tired of having to give people encouragement and praise if they obviously haven'yt got the first clue of what their doing.

From me you will get advice and a good stepping on toes ...lump it or leave it.


As for the perma-praisers ...i have my own little theory there:

Some of them have as little clue as the the other poster, so they keep praising themselves in varying threads, constantly reinforcing their own belief in their nicety ...how could they possibly be doing something wrong to their own dog ...can't everybody see how nice they are ...even to that ghastly person that keeps their dog in the back garden all day and night??

The others, that have real advice to give, I'd like to encourage to stop pussyfooting around and address the issues hard and clear.

Otherwise nothing will ever change.

I'm afraid, when it comes to animal welfare "good enough" is not good enough ...not by a mile.

right ...that's off my chest ...hope everybody feels suitably offended

SuzyS1972

Wow
Exactly how I feel - couldn't have put it better
I am sick to death of people asking me for advice on a breed they've bought and know **** all about
Ahem - buy a book - do your homework people - you wouldn't buy a car and ask no questions about it would you :mad:

At the end of the day - it's boxers this month - westies next month
and all the while in my mind I'm wondering how long it will be before rescues get bombarded with last months " in " dog

I don't know how many phonecalls I have heard - over and over and over
The same stuff you have listed there

We got a dog but we can't manage him coz he's " wild " can you take him
We can't " train him " - well no you fecking well can't - if he's on his own all day and sleeps out the back at night.
He grew too big - hardly his fault - When you decided to buy a Neopolitan Mastiff didn't you wonder what they actually were. I could go on .

Wake up and smell the coffee - by far and wide I beleive that the worst cruelty to dogs that happens everywhere, every day is not just the cases of beatings etc - it's the dogs locked into a solitary existence in a back garden with no love or interaction - no training , no stimulation and most importantly - and this is key - no understanding of the breed that people have bought ....... Terriers are hunting dogs - bred to go to ground and act on their own initiative - then people wonder why Billy Westie or Tommy JRT are wrecking their garden -

And I think that most people looking for advise are only doing so to make their own lives easier - not coz they are worried on the effects of a pup having to **** in it's own bed at night - not coz they wonder what level of boredom and frustration led the dog to wreck the garden - not coz they care about the wellbeing of the dog at all

junkyard

Well said, at this stage I have rescued more dogs than I have hot dinners. People seem to get dogs as some kind of status symbol, and the same goes for cats. I honestly think that these same people treat their kids much the same way.

Goffie

A final note before I go.
I never looked for praise.
I thought about getting a dog for two years before making my decision, researched breeds, got good advice here about buying a puppy from a genuine breeder, read a lot of puppy-training books, emailed endlessly the Westie Rescue group to get advice on the breed (a fantastic group) and what to expect and have followed all advice to the best of my ability.
I consider having Jack a privilege and his needs come first.
However, I'm not perfect, and I came here to speak to people with more expertise about small things that came up. I thought I would be among fellow dog-lovers who could give me the benefit of their experience. Any many have.
But I don't like the way I'm being painted, and I genuinely feel it's unwarranted. I was very upset by peasnt's last post to me.
Don't want or need praise for what I love doing, caring for my dog.
We're not all cruel, heartless, dog abandoners on here.
If I had a problem training I would bring him to training classes.
Jack WILL NEVER be a rescue dog.
I know you've seen terrible things done to dogs and I commend you for the work you do, but this slating of us learners will just put people off asking for advice that might help save a dog from being given up on.
There's no camaraderie left in this forum for me, as I feel any post i make from now on will be watched for cruelty, so what's the point in posting anymore?
It's just sad for the genuine new dog owners, and they do exist

luckat

A little misdirected anger, I think.

People who come here looking for advice want to do the best for their pets. They're not the same people who abandon their dogs or cats.

And I'd sooner praise a good start than abuse someone from a height for the things they're doing out of ignorance.

But it's nice to know that we have such godlike authorities among us as those who wish to dismiss these people, all the same.

peasant

@ luckat

There are different levels of animal abuse:

One is the plain and obvoius ...neglect, maltreatment, physical cruelty ...every thinking human being abhors these kind of things.

But there is a more subtle level as well. It isn't abuse in the physical sense, using violence or open cruelty. It happens on a subconscious level, by people who either treat an animal as an accessory or, just as bad, equal it to a human being, making it out to replace the human child or partner they never had.

Both, accessorising and humansing, is animal cruelty as well. It consists of a failure to realise and respect the basic needs and rights of the animal. Instead of treating the animal according to its natural needs and adjusting their lifestyles and routines accordingly, people squeeze the animal into a role that they have designed for it. Be it as a lifestyle accessory or as a surrogate child. The animal is expected to perform along the desired behaviour patterns, to function... instead of being enabled to live according to its individual needs.

This is a very new trend. It is taking places as people become more and more affluent, more and more selfish and society turns out to be more and more competitive and less morally balanced.

People increasingly turn to animals to fill certain voids in their lives. Be it that they need to project an image or that they need someone that they can "love" and who loves them back unconditionally.

This is done for totally and utterly selfish reasons, with very little to no regard towards the right and needs of the animals.

The same selfish reasons then apply to posts on this board, looking for help because one realises that one has taken on maybe just a little more than bargained for.

Sure, there is an element of wanting to care for the animal, I'm not suggesting that we are just surrounded by mindless, heartless brutes ...but the overwhelming motive for looking for help still is selfishness ...please help me to make my life easy again ...my dog is causing me problems, creating work, doing damage ...please provide me with a quick fix.

And in quite a lot of cases with the underlying threat "or otherwise i will have to give it away ..."

We all make mistakes. But we are also expected to learn from them.

So, to close the circle ...I don't think it is demanding too much from people, having made the mistake of having gotten an animal for the wrong reasons, to realise their mistake, make changes and act responsibly.

Or is it?

But some people are (like it says in the Jaffa cake ad) so "deliciously self-centred" that they seem to be unable to realise that they are using the completely wrong appraoch and also the wrong angle of looking at the "problem"

I honestly do not believe that praising / encouraging / mollycoddling will help the issue one bit ... hard thruths will have to be spelled out now and then, otherwise I can't see people assuming full responsibility for their animals.

And as for ignorance ....it may be bliss for the owner ...but certainly not for the pet.

As Susy said: you wouldn't buy a car and ask no questions about it would you

amerden

I presume from the above comments that this Board is now dead.

Hellrazer

luckat wrote:

A little misdirected anger, I think.

People who come here looking for advice want to do the best for their pets. They're not the same people who abandon their dogs or cats.

And I'd sooner praise a good start than abuse someone from a height for the things they're doing out of ignorance.

Im going to agree with Luckat here.Personally I feel that people who are actively seeking solutions to their problems,help with caring for their animals and looking for reassurance to their insecurities are probably the best people to own pets.
I dont understand the OPs problem.

Believe it or not the reason this forum was added to boards was for the exact reason above.

Would the op prefer if all these pets were dumped in shelters?Or would you prefer to actively see these people look for advice in caring for their pets and maybe save the pet from being put up for "re-homing"

Would you prefer if all potential pet owners were vetted by some high and mighty power to make sure they were suitable to own pets?

People make mistakes and sometimes make rash decisions when choosing pets but again in my opinion the fact that these people are seeking help in caring for their pet shows a level of responsibility and maturity that I can only "Praise" wholeheartedly.
Richie

Hellrazer

amerden wrote:

I presume from the above comments that this Board is now dead.

No its not dead.

peasant

Hellrazer

Thanks for engaging in the discussion.

I will answer this (at length) in the evening, when I have some more time.

Nala

I think Peasant has gone off on a bit of a tangent about this.
Yes, some people are very ignorant when it comes to animals. And they ask questions that they should already know the answer to. And they are stupid. I remember one, can't remember if it was from this site or not, went something like::

"I am buying a Labrador pup for the kids, it is 8 weeks old, will it be very small at this age, because I want a small dog so the kids won't be afraid of it".

"But Labradors are big dogs, puppies don't stay small forever, they grow up".

"Yeah but I want a small one that won't frighten the kids".

But there are also people who ask questions because they care about their pet. They are not too proud to ask for help and for this yes they should be praised.
It is impossible to know everything about everything. The only way to find out is to ask.

Goffie

Hellrazer
Can I direct people to Pesant's last reply to me in my thread?

The Board may not be dead yet, but die it will if this type of personal attack is allowed.

No hard feelings, but this Elvis is leaving the building.

Thanks to all who cheerfully helped me out with suggestions.
Take care
Goffie

amerden

When I said that this board was dead, I firmly believe that, who in their right mind would post to this board now asking for advice.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hellrazer

amerden wrote:

When I said that this board was dead, I firmly believe that, who in their right mind would post to this board now asking for advice.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry Amerden but the advice and a personal attack by one poster on a thread does not kill a whole board.
I never read the thread regarding the advice and rant that peasant gave to Goffie but its just aswell I didnt.
Any type of personal attack on another poster is frowned upon here.

Many people have come here for advice and received good advice about caring for their animals and Im not about to let one poster close down a whole forum because of their views.

peasant

right ...where do I start ...

Maybe two clarifications for ease of discussion first:

1) I would like to exclude clear and abvious animal abuse (as in beatings, neglect, etc) from this particular discussion ..I think we all agree that that is to be condemned and I further believe that no "real" animal abuser will find their way onto this board

2) for my examples in this dicussion I will stick with dogs, as dogs are what I know best ...but with some slight variations probably any species of pet will have the same or similar problems surrounding it.

Right then ...

The way I see it, there are several views to take on animals / pet issues:

A) The microscopic view:
Poster XY (usually new to boards / new to this board) arrives with an urgent problem, looking for help. Doggie barks too much, ****s to much, is destructive, doesn't listen ...whatever. Advice is given, together with encouragement to continue solving problems or even praise for doing "the right thing". All is well.

The macroscopic view:
Poster XY comes back with other problems and it becomes apparent that XY has very little idea of how a dog should be treated properly ...even some views that are plain wrong or even irresponsible/dangerous for the dog.
What now? Continue praise/encouragement to keep XY on the board and listening, hoping that the message gets through anyway meanwhile taking the risk of reinforcing wrong behaviour by praise ....or ....get a bit forceful and make it clear that some things are going wrong here? Remind XY of their responsibilities and hope that they take heed?

C) The bigger picture:
Several XY's out there with somewhat questionable views on proper treatment of a dog keep "encouraging" each other over various threads, to keep up "the good work", all the while spreading and reinforcing questionable methods.
Join in the praise-choir? Meekly raise a few objections? Or make your views known a bit more drastically?

D) The real situation:
Dogs get put down in their tens of thousands in Ireland every year. Yet they also get "produced" in their tens of thousands ...only to be put down again shortly thereafter in large percentages.

Why is that?
Because we, as a society, place next to no value on dogs. They are bought on a whim, without any forethought or preparation. They are "used" as long as they don't make too much trouble. They get shoved into back yards and spare rooms, only to be taken out when it suits. Eventually, when the "problems" get too big, the dog gets discarded ...very often only to be replaced by another one soon thereafter.

Now what is this (the real situation) but ABUSE?? And it goes on everywhere, every single day.

What can you do to stop it from happening?

Legislation? Regulation? ...to a certain degree ....maybe

But what really needs to happen is a massive mind-shift throughout society. We must stop treating dogs as "things" and give them the respect and care that they need in every way ...every day.

So ...think back on the different views ...where do you stop praising ...where do you start to criticise? Only at the largest scale? Lean back in your armchair and say " oh my word ...isn't it terrible" ...

No, every single dog owner ....actually every single POTENTIAL dog owner has to be reminded of their responsibility in this matter.
If everyone treated their dog right (and in a lot of cases that would actually mean not to get one in the first place !!) we would not have this problem. Dogs would be respected, treasured even ...there wouldn't be a problem.


Now where does that leave us in regards to praising and encouraging posters on this board?

In my opinion, praise is the wrong approach ....we only praise ourselves into mediocrity ...arra sure that's good enough ...after all it could be worse.

But think about it ...with a bit of effort ...a bit of a push ...it could be so much better !!

In my own personal experience, praise and encouragement has only ever got me so far ...a right kick up the arse usually "helped" me to do the whole distance

Unfortunately, society these days is so spoiled ...everything is available at a klick of a finger ... real effort and commitment seem to be going out of fashion fast. Praise just doesn't hack it ...after all ...instant gratification can be got almost everywhere else.

So ...fellow boarders ... please discuss ...should we keep on providing instant gratification through praise and encouragement or should we rather give people a verbal clip around the ears every now and then and send them thinking about their responsibilities??

You know where I stand ....



And as an afterthought:
People who *really* care about their animals don't need praise ...an answer to their immediate problem, something that helps their dog and them out of a fix, a good bit of advice is all they'd ever want and need ....and they'd be grateful for it too ...

doctor evil

I think alot of people look for support as opposed to praise. I agree with the kick up the arse sentiment, thats what a lot of people need in lots of different ways.

SuzyS1972

Goffie - if you were 2 years in the waiting - researching getting this dog - then why in the name of god did you start a thread a few weeks ago asking if it was ok to buy a dog out of a free ads paper without seeing the parents.

And as for putting Jacks needs 1st - you clearly stated already that you couldn't get up in the middle of the night as you'd be wrecked next day.
Be honest you'd rather the dog stressed itself and **** in it's own bed rather than disrupt yourself for a few weeks.

And one last thing " training classes " are a good idea - they are not for taking your dog WHEN he becomes a problem.
take him as soon as his vaccinations are finished.
A socialised dog who receives guidance from his mom - yes guidance as funny enough dogs don't really know what they are meant to be doing to please us humans will really pay off in the long run.
But then again I'm sure the books you've been reading have said all this anyway
I rest my case

FranknFurter

TBH, I think personally this is kind of silly.
People come here, often with questions on a individual animal.
Opinions and / advice are offered........ it seems to be the opinions side of it that is at fault in some peoples eyes?

Well, thats a board for you, if you dont want personal experience and advice from ordinary people, then go see a vet.

Otherwise acknowledge that people on a board, have a right (Unless deemed unsuitable by a mod), to express their opinions of a situation in a reasonable manner.

This board in particular has some rather complex issues because peoples pets are often an extremely emotive issue. Thats why we have mods, their decisions imho have so-far been very fair and considered.

Otherwise, as I said, its a vet or animal behaviourist you need, not a board. IMO

simple imho

b

aare

Peasant, I don't see anybody coming here to be praised at all, and I haven't got a clue where you got that from.

Your point seems really to be that others refuse to join you in condemning anyone who doesn't do everything YOUR WAY, and that YOUR WAY definately isn't always right, reasonable, realistic or consistent...(and you aren't the only one).

Sorry, but I think my own way, and those are the only terms upon which I will ever respond to anyone...and that might go for a few other people.

I never heard anything so ridiculous in my life as condemning someone for not losing sleep training a puppy to expect to be let out to poo in the middle of the night! Which would be the only end result.

"Animal behaviorists" often rejoice in obscure qualifications and, rather more reliably, charge €250 an hour for this week's latest trend in doggie psych.

This is, understandably, NOT for everybody.

:rolleyes:

peasant

OK ...let's look at this the other way round ...

There are several people ("regulars") on this board who have profound knowledge of how to do right by an animal.

Then there is a varying amount of passers through, looking for a solution to a specific problem.

The usual procedure is that group one supplies group two with information and advice and all is well.

But every now and then, some members of group two clearly display insufficient knowledge or behaviour / "training methods" that to everybody who knows about animal keeping must raise the flag. There are things going on, that are harming or endangering the animal.

Now I don't know whether it is "board culture" or an Irish thing ...but hardly ever do I see clear words being spoken, warnings issued, people being told off.
Instead I notice praise and encouragement for half hearted efforts and mollycoddling of clearly incompetent owners.

THAT'S what I'm on about and what I don't get ...

Several posters here have animal welfare close to their hearts, but I can't help getting the impression that not to offend the poster seems to be more important than getting the essential message across.

I just don't believe that the nicey-nice approach carries the message well enough.

Apparently I'm alone with this view ...but at least I think it's (was?) worth talking about.

I am by no means the ultimate authority on dog keeping / animal welfare ...there are people here who know far more than I do ...I just wish that the message would come across a bit "louder".

And no, i'm not hinging this whole discussion on one single example (that's why i opened a separate thread) I'm concerned about the principle.

Thanks for endulging me.

aare

peasant wrote:

There are several people ("regulars") on this board who have profound knowledge of how to do right by an animal.

Then it will be interesting if any of them ever post, because I have never met anybody with a *profound knowledge of how to do right by an animal*, or close, in my life!

WHAT in the WORLD are you talking about? :eek:

This *us and them* of profound knowers and transient acolytes does not exist here outside of your own imagination. :rolleyes:

We are all grown up people exchanging ideas, advice and information as equals.

Often the people who ask for advice know a great deal about animals (Perhaps BECAUSE they are in the habit of asking for advice about them?), sometimes the people doling out the advice are truly clueless (The inevitable result of a person deciding that they know so much that they have nothing to learn by asking anyone else about anything.).

If you want *blunt*, I can give you *blunt*:

There is no way anybody has the right to attack someone for refusing to mistake their personal opinion for "profound knowledge" and instead choosing to evaluate it for what it is, which is just an opinion.

Hellrazer

Thought long and hard about my reply to this thread so heres the way I see it.

The main reason this board was set up was for animals lovers to help other animal lovers with their pets.Secondary reason was for all posts about animals.

Peasants quote "There are several people ("regulars") on this board who have profound knowledge of how to do right by an animal." is utterly wrong.

I would have phrased it like this "There are several people ("regulars") on this board who have profound knowledge of how to do right by certain animals.

The reason I say it like that is because in my opinion there are posters here who have specialities in their knowledge.
Take myself for instance I own 2 dogs(sleep in the kitchen before anyone starts),1 cat,2 lizards,1 snake and at one stage had 4 Tarantulas.
My area of knowledge would be more so the reptiles and spiders.
When I first started out with reptiles I got a lot of help here from Bond-007 and Faye.
I dont agree with your opinion that tons of research before buying a pet is a necessity.I bought books from the States,researched till my eyes were hanging out of my head before I bought anything and still had problems with my reptiles.And thanks to Faye and Bond I got through my problems.

Can you imagine if I had come here and got for want of a better word "abused" for not doing my homework.I wouldnt have come back for more advice.

As for my dogs I look after my dogs well and could never see them being mistreated although the defination of that is blurry according to Peasants post.

Peasant is it ok for a dog to be kept in a back garden??In my opinion it is.

My dogs sleep in the house and for all intents and purposes are part of the family unit.In the evenings they sit in the sitting room in front of the fire and interact with the kids and us.
During the day when Im at work the dogs are out the back.They have a concrete shed where they can sleep and its quite warm for them.Am I a bad owner for leaving them out the back??

When we first got the dogs we also had "problems " house training.It was not a case of having to get up at 5.00 to let the dog out because thats not the way my vet told me to do it.

To finish I will also say that imho any person who comes here to seek advice on looking after their pet is welcome.I wont tolerate the hardline approach with people looking for advice because that just turns people away and in my opinion thats worse than seeking the advice of some of the knowledegable posters here.
Richie

peasant

THE MODERATOR wrote:

I wont tolerate the hardline approach with people looking for advice because that just turns people away and in my opinion thats worse than seeking the advice of some of the knowledegable posters here.

Well, that settles that ...board culture it is.

I guess I will have to try and see wheter I can fit in.

And in reply to some finer points:

I would have phrased it like this "There are several people ("regulars") on this board who have profound knowledge of how to do right by certain animals

Correct ...thats what I meant and SHOULD have said in the first place

I dont agree with your opinion that tons of research before buying a pet is a necessity.I bought books from the States,researched till my eyes were hanging out of my head before I bought anything and still had problems

Research will not prevent problems from occuring. But it will help you to make an informed decision, if the animal that you're interested in, is for you at all and if you are prepared to accomodate its needs and traits.
There is nothing worse than getting an animal on a whim only to find out that it is nothing like you expected it to be. What do you do with it then? Give it away ..kill it ...keep it in totally inadequate and appaling conditions?
Research as a preparation is ESSENTIAL

a dog to be kept in a back garden

in itself is no "crime". But excluding it from family life for 80-90% of the day (as some people do) is cruelty. So it's a matter of time, not location.

not the way my vet told me to do it.

Vets are medical experts, nothing more. Our vet (class vet that she is otherwise) in all earnest recommended on of these remote control dog collars to train our dog from barking too much. Needless to say I looked for advice elswhere and found a better solution.
Another vet recommended and demonstrated the so called "Alpha Roll" to "train" one of our dogs ...I nearly killed him when I saw what he did to our dog.
So, vets are doctors ...not trainers or educators.

aare wrote:

There is no way anybody has the right to attack someone for refusing to mistake their personal opinion for "profound knowledge" and instead choosing to evaluate it for what it is, which is just an opinion

There are many opinions about proper animal care out there. Most of them are valid, because animals are individuals and circumstances differ. So different opinions apply to different cases.
But there also are FACTS ...irreversible and true facts that need to be stated as such. Simple example:
Dogs are highly social animals. Their whole existence is geared towards being a member of and interacting with a group. Be that a group of dogs or people. It is therefore cruel to keep them in solitary confinement. Fact.
Opinions then differ on what exactly constitutes "solitary confinement" ...but that doesn't change the fact.
Arguments about opinions are mostly fruitless,as they are not universal. Driving home the facts on the other hand is essential IMO.

aare ...contrary to what you seem to think of me, I am by no means of the opinion that i am THE authority on dogs. I am painfully aware that I don't know nearly enough. Furthermore, I don't have any problems in getting my opinion disputed or overruled.
But I think, and I hope that you would agree, that there are SOME fundamentals when it comes to proper animal care that are NOT open to discussion.

Hellrazer

Of course there are fundamentals that are not open to discussion regarding animal care Im not arguing that point at all.

Im coming from the point of a person who has an interest in animals and also as a mod of this forum.
I really dont see where your problem is???
Explain it to me a bit more.

As for the "board culture" comment I would probably agree that there is a bit of that going on.
Its the way boards works.Help someone out and in the future you may need help in their area of expertise.

Heres the way I see it:
person seeks advice,comes to boards,gets help==comes back for more advice if needed in the future and keeps boards going by contributing their knowledge and helping others out if they have that ability.

Your way:
person seeks advice,comes to boards,get told off for not doing this,that and the other correctly==doesnt look for help again and doesnt contribute towards other posters needs and therefore boards loses that persons experience and knowledge.
If every board ran the way you see it then boards wouldnt last too long.

In between each step is a moderator who is there to look after threads,make sure that things dont get out of hand aswell as contribute towards discussions etc.


The above applies to each and every forum on boards.ie.
Thats why boards has so many members--Its a place where people can post a problem and get help with it instead of being told off for doing something wrong.The majority of posters are helpful and do help each other out despite how stupid the problem is or was.

aare

Hellrazer wrote:

Thought long and hard about my reply to this thread so heres the way I see it.

......

To finish I will also say that imho any person who comes here to seek advice on looking after their pet is welcome.I wont tolerate the hardline approach with people looking for advice because that just turns people away and in my opinion thats worse than seeking the advice of some of the knowledegable posters here.
Richie

THAT'S what was on the tip of my tongue...all of it...I just snipped it to save too much repetition.

Very little more to add...

Except peasant:

peasant wrote:

contrary to what you seem to think of me, I am by no means of the opinion that i am THE authority on dogs.

Has it ever crossed your mind that I might have derived that impression from the way you act and treat others? And that if you stopped acting as though you were the final authority, my opinion of you would change (and if you were trying to change my opinion, no, demanding that anyone who does not treat their pet in terms of your last expressed opinion should be chastised was NOT a good start!)?

peasant wrote:

But I think, and I hope that you would agree, that there are SOME fundamentals when it comes to proper animal care that are NOT open to discussion.

Yes, but far less than you insist upon, some of the things you claim to be fundamentals of basic animal care are just your opinions, and not widely held, or realistic ones at that.

peasant

... some of the things you claim to be fundamentals of basic animal care are just your opinions, and not widely held, or realistic ones at that.

ahhh ...but that is the crux of the matter ...

A widely held opinion isn't necessarily true or correct. Some of them are just plain myth. And animal welfare is not a matter of democracy or majority, but of principle. Just because it is (was?) a widely held opinion that the proper way to housetrain your dog is to push its nose into its own excrement it still isn't correct or true ...it simply is cruel ...widely held or not.



and now ....REALISTIC ...let's chew on that for a while ...

REALISTIC implies: to be made fit into the "real world" as we humans see it and created it. To have to be adapted to the "real circumstances" ...the necessities of daily human life.

A dog needs what a dog needs. It's a dog, not a human. So what's REALISTIC to a dog? Only its own needs, not ours.

In the human "real world", where the whole household (barring the dog) exits early in the morning, stays away all day and returns late in the evening to more "real" chores that don't include the dog ...in a situation like that ...REALISTICALLY, there is no room for a dog. At least not from a dogs point of view because its needs are not catered for adequately.

Whenever, in a discussion about animal welfare, people say "lets get REALISTIC here" it means that the look at things from a human / practical perspective and that they are putting their (human) needs and necessities above those of the dog.
That is a fundamental breech of animal welfare. By introducing an animal into your life YOU take on the full responsibility for its wellbeing ..it usually has no other choice but to be content with what you can provide it with. If you can't provide adequately for all its needs ...don't get one. But don't compromise at the expense of the animal and use "REALITY" as a lame excuse.
An animal needs YOU to look at things from its perspective first ...then you can get "REALISTIC" and see does it match with your perspective ...if it doesn't ...leave it.

part two:

Hellrazer wrote:

Of course there are fundamentals that are not open to discussion regarding animal care Im not arguing that point at all.

Im coming from the point of a person who has an interest in animals and also as a mod of this forum.
I really dont see where your problem is???
Explain it to me a bit more.

As for the "board culture" comment I would probably agree that there is a bit of that going on.
Its the way boards works.Help someone out and in the future you may need help in their area of expertise.

Heres the way I see it:
person seeks advice,comes to boards,gets help==comes back for more advice if needed in the future and keeps boards going by contributing their knowledge and helping others out if they have that ability.

Your way:
person seeks advice,comes to boards,get told off for not doing this,that and the other correctly==doesnt look for help again and doesnt contribute towards other posters needs and therefore boards loses that persons experience and knowledge.
If every board ran the way you see it then boards wouldnt last too long.

In between each step is a moderator who is there to look after threads,make sure that things dont get out of hand aswell as contribute towards discussions etc.


The above applies to each and every forum on boards.ie.
Thats why boards has so many members--Its a place where people can post a problem and get help with it instead of being told off for doing something wrong.The majority of posters are helpful and do help each other out despite how stupid the problem is or was.

I understand your points about the workings of boards and board culture.It is great for people to be able to post here, not having to be afraid to ask "stupid questions" and find help with their problems from nice people.

My dilemma is:
This boards structure works well, when you are talking about computer games, cars or such like. A wrong / irrelevant answer might cause your game to crash but will not cause lasting damage.

It's a different matter when it comes to animal / pet issues. In my opinion there is one overwhelming reason why we have so many animal welfare issues in this country and that is because we treat animals as things of little value and not as sensient beings with clearly defined needs.

A lot of people coming here with problems with their pets are not looking for solutions but for fixes ...like you would fix a leaking washing machine or a malfunctioning mobile phone.

But an animal is not a machine, it is a living being. There may be a few "tricks" that may help the poster with his/her problem, but in order to get a real, functioning and working relation to his animal, that poster doesn't really need to fix one single problem (because another on will pop up soon after) but very often needs to fundamentally change his / her whole attitude towards that animal.

People need to realise that they haven't just bought a pet (i.e. thing) but have silently agreed to take the responsibility for that beings life. And not just its survival, but a meaningful, quality life!
That animal is in their hands, its life depends on them.

Further to my dilemma ...how do you get that message across?
A fundamental change in attitude / point of view is what you want to achieve (well ...what I would like to achieve ) ...how do you make that happen?

By providing the quick fix the poster was looking for an letting him meddle on thereafter? ...not really ...especially when you suspect other things going wrong for the animal

By praising him for coming to look for advice? Hoping he / she will come back again and you will be able to find a real solution over time? Yes, probably ...but lots of posters still seem happy to take the advice (and the praise), only to dissapear and meddle on ...only this time it's quick fix added to the meddle.

Or do you have to step on their toes somewhat, hoping to make them sit up and listen / think ?
I have to admit that that approach isn't working too well either ...people get offended and leave ...still nothing achieved.

But I would still like to believe, that for all the posters that have left because they have been criticised, there might be one or two silent readers (who never dared post in the first place) who might take the message to heart ...after all the message had a point and it wasn't them who were criticised directly

I really do believe that things have to be shaken up a bit when it comes to our attitudes to animals in this country ...I just don't know how to do it.
I thought this board might be a good platform for some more fundamental and controversial topics ...but i'm just not sure whether it is or which approach to take.

So, in short ...I'm at a bit of a loss ...that is why I started this thread

Hellrazer

peasant wrote:

I really do believe that things have to be shaken up a bit when it comes to our attitudes to animals in this country ...I just don't know how to do it.
I thought this board might be a good platform for some more fundamental and controversial topics ...but i'm just not sure whether it is or which approach to take.

To be totally honest I agree with the above 100%.Attitudes to animals in this country do need to be shaken up a bit.

And you are 100% welcome to use this board as a means to that by posting controversial and fundamental topics provided that

1.Its done by the rules.

2.That other posters are treated in a considerate manner and not berated for discussing their problems with their pets here regardless of whether you consider that pet owners problem to be one of incompetance or downright cruelty.

Richie

peasant

fair enough ...

I'll try and reign myself in a bit and keep the berating to a minimum and the pulpit low

Cheers

aare

Peasant, re the previous long post, you are entitled to your opinions...what you need to get to grips with is that other people are also entitled to theirs.

You claim that a dog's needs are not met by being let alone all day, as thought it were somwe kind of self evident truth, but the fact is that, if kept company all day, all most dogs choose to do is sleep. That is because they are different to us, simpler creatures.

When I say "you are not being realistic" I mean that you are setting up double binds..."don't sit down and don't stand up either" impossible situations for people, and then condemning their non-compliance.

peasant

if kept company all day, all most dogs choose to do is sleep.

Yes ..if kept company. Because they are reassured in being part of their pack and not abandoned and can rest easy. Sleeping in safety, comfort and security is social interaction as well, even if it doesn't look like it.
But they don't destroy, bark (excessively), chew (excessively), dig (excessively) or any other action associated with boredom and or panik.

That is because they are different to us, simpler creatures.

First and foremost they are FELLOW creatures and deserve our attention and respect. Secondly they are different ...doh ...they're dogs.

But simpler ??
Yes ...e equals mc squared means nothing to them. But calling them "simple" is derogatory, and quite frankly, i am disappointed to hear that coming from you.

Dogs possess faculties and abilities that we can't even imagine. How about a sense of smell that is roughly 600 times better than ours? How about the ability to "forecast" epileptic seizures in humans hours in advance? How about (if trained to do so) identifying cancerous growths just by smell weeks before any apparatus or method designed by humans is able to detect it?
And the "killer one" ...how about being able to interact completely, make themselves understood, learn to understand, fellow beings that don't even belong to their species?

Us humans ...

A fate which we are a loooong way from mastering ...we don't even understand ourselves ...never mind other creatures.

Simple ...I think not...

peasant

and just for you aare ...

The above statement ...while containg some facts ...is in its underlying meaning and intention an expression of my personal opinion and anyone is welcome to either share this opinion or to have a completely different one.

Thanks for letting me express it.

Good night !

tallus

It's insulting that you conviniently lumped everyone here in the same boat peasant, I do research when I'm thinking of keeping any creature, and I have asked for help on here in the past because there's no experience like hands on experience. I have also given advice because I have kept a wide variety of creatures my self and I do have hands on experience. I have never kept a dog though they just aren't my type of pet, and personally I agree with you on some of the comments, it's really sad to see so many dogs roaming around the streets after christmas every year people should be brought to court and fined for animal abuse in those cases. Just dont put everyone in the same boat here, it's unfair that you based your original post one species of animal considering the wide array of posts we get on here, and not ALL animals are social or want/need to interact with us. I keep tortoises/spiders/horned frog/and one cat, and they are all well looked after.
Where your comments are taken on board... nobody died and made you the voice of conscience on here, that's why we have mods, and knowledgable ones at that.

peasant

Hi tallus

I think you misunderstod parts of my posts or maybe I left room for misinterpretation (seems to be ahabit of mine).

I have said that there are quite a lot of people on this board with extensive knowledge about proper animal keeping, so I din't lump everyone into the same boat.

All my examples have been made about dogs, as they are what I know most about. Also throughout the board all my posts (with a few exceptions about cats) have been about dogs ...i wouldn't dare write about amphibians, lizards, fish etc ...as I know next to nothing about them.

But I'd be willing to bet you, that for every three or four dogs that are, as you put it, "wandering the streets after Christmas" there is at least one Goldfish being flushed down the toilet,a lizard being starved or chilled to death or any other sort of animal being mistreated.

Simply because animal cruelty starts at the very beginning. The owners attitude before and while he/she gets their "pet". As long as that animal is acquired like any other consumers item to be "used" instead of respected ..there is a long rocky road of POSSIBLE mistreatment and cruelty ahead of that animal.

That is why, while mostly writing about dogs, I have tried to include all types of animals (well, all types of pets at least) into my posts.

tallus

Point taken dude :-)

aare

peasant wrote:

Yes ..if kept company. Because they are reassured in being part of their pack and not abandoned and can rest easy.

...and they also sleep all day left alone (which they do) because???

Dogs actually relate security far more to their territory than to their *pack*, not least because they haven't been wild for millenia.

peasant wrote:

Sleeping in safety, comfort and security is social interaction as well, even if it doesn't look like it.

You speak for yourself!

peasant wrote:

But they don't destroy, bark (excessively), chew (excessively), dig (excessively) or any other action associated with boredom and or panik.

You are wrong about that too. Some dogs bark, chew and destroy both alone or in company, some only do it alone, out of boredom and some only do it with company for attention. Some dogs never do those things at all.

peasant wrote:

Yes ...e equals mc squared means nothing to them. But calling them "simple" is derogatory, and quite frankly, i am disappointed to hear that coming from you.

Now you have put on your "World's foremost authority on the thinking of aare" cap, and presumed that I regard "simple" as a perjorative term.

...and I was trying SO HARD not to use this smiley AGAIN :rolleyes:

peasant wrote:

how about being able to interact completely, make themselves understood, learn to understand, fellow beings that don't even belong to their species?

Let me try and put this diplomatically, no matter how talented in terms of inter-special communication, the canine world may still have some way to go before they fully master the art of making themselves understood by you.

(Well I thought that was diplomatic! )

I suspect that you may need to spend less time projectively identifying with dogs and more time trying to actually understand their independent needs.

They are simple, but they aren't just extensions or mirrors of ourselves.

Roddy23

peasant all this time taken to write out multiple replies, could it not have been time better spent to ,look after your pets.

Hellrazer

Roddy23 wrote:

peasant all this time taken to write out multiple replies, could it not have been time better spent to ,look after your pets.

Thats a stupid comment and off topic.Consider this a warning.

Back on topic please.

peasant

They are simple, but they aren't just extensions or mirrors of ourselves

Whatever gave you the idea that I think that they are (extensions / mirrors) ??


As for dogs cummunicating with us:
I don't know how many dogs you have or what your experience is with them. We have three of them at home. And from watching them communicating among themselves versus communicating with us, it is clear to see that they actually use fundamentally different behavoiurs / expressions to get their message across, depending who their communicating with. I think that is quite an achievement ...especially considering that the "master race" has hardly managed to make itself understood by dogs other than by shouting or force (with some rare exceptions). All we use (in most cases) to communicate with dogs is the same language we use everyday amongst ourselves ...only louder and "dumbed down" ...no great achievement there.


...and they also sleep all day left alone (which they do) because???

because it makes most sense from a biolgical point of view. They are being fed regularly, so they don't have to hunt. They get regular excercise and stimulation (hopefully) so they're not bored or bursting with the need to do something.
And as television or a book means nothing to them, they conserve energy and sleep.
(like most carnivors do when their belly is full and there's nothing else to do)...and they may just have gotten used to being alone.

BUT ...the picture changes immediatedly when the hunger, excercise and stimulation boxes aren't ticked regularly.

Of course a dog can be left alone (and even happy with it) ...just not too long, not all the time.

As for the "real world" ...eight or more uninterrupted hours of solitute in my opinion is too long ...and if it happens five or six days out of seven its (in my opinion) all the time too.



side note

I apologise for not responding properly with quotes and such like. But my computer crashes every time I reply other than using the "quick reply" ...also I can't reply to Private Messages ...is that boards acting up or has my computer gone wrong ?

aare

peasant wrote:

Whatever gave you the idea that I think that they are (extensions / mirrors) ??

Your consistent attitude to them which only grants them existance in terms of their dependence on you and your defintion of they nature and needs.

I think your take on communication is too subjective for response.

peasant wrote:

because it makes most sense from a biolgical point of view. They are being fed regularly, so they don't have to hunt. They get regular excercise and stimulation (hopefully) so they're not bored or bursting with the need to do something.
And as television or a book means nothing to them, they conserve energy and sleep.
(like most carnivors do when their belly is full and there's nothing else to do)...and they may just have gotten used to being alone.

So, according to you, an healthy dog will most likely spend much of the day sleeping whether you are there or not...which rather begs the question of what need is being answered by constant company that is not related to unhealthy co-dependency on the owners part?

Of which "He needs me so he can sleep properly" must take to an whole new level.

Akita Inu, for example, usually actively PREFER to be left alone much of the time, even by other dogs, and can get very cranky if they aren't.

peasant wrote:

As for the "real world" ...eight or more uninterrupted hours of solitute in my opinion is too long ...and if it happens five or six days out of seven its (in my opinion) all the time too.

Then make sure you aren't left alone for that sort of time, because a dog may not feel that same way.

I really think you need to have a more objective grasp of the facts of your topic before you condemn others...

Apart from which, I have suffered form that weird "reply" problem in the past, though not today.

peasant

aare wrote:

Your consistent attitude to them which only grants them existance in terms of their dependence on you and your defintion of they nature and needs.

Wha? Dogs only exist because they need me / humans??
Where did I ever say or even imply that? ...You're loosing me ...fast

I think your take on communication is too subjective for response.

Too subjective because you haven't noticed the differences? Or too subjective because you think I'm off with the fairies again?

So, according to you, an healthy dog will most likely spend much of the day sleeping whether you are there or not...which rather begs the question of what need is being answered by constant company that is not related to unhealthy co-dependency on the owners part?

No, not "it WILL" ...it might. Some dogs (according to my personal experience quite a few) will not sleep happily if left to their own devices, because they get stressed on their own.
The need is the need of a highly social animal to belong to a group ...even if that whole group is asleep Perceived abandonment means stress.
...and I still don't follow you on the co-dependency thing. I certainly don't need my dogs ..though I freely admit to liking having them around ..but that's because they're gas characters.

Akita Inu, for example, usually actively PREFER to be left alone much of the time, even by other dogs, and can get very cranky if they aren't.

So ..an Akita Inu for every working person in the audience? You do know, that they were bred as fighting dogs, deliberately aloof and independent?

I really think you need to have a more objective grasp of the facts of your topic before you condemn others...

Opinons, my dear ...opinions. That particular one is yours. In my opinion I'd like to think of myself as objective as is humanly possible with a topic that is close to ones' heart

Apart from which, I have suffered form that weird "reply" problem in the past, though not today.

Will see, if it's working now ... aahh ....'tis

peasant

To put this "leaving dogs on their own for longer periods" - thing into one post ...here's the gospel according to peasant ...in other words my (I believe informed) opinion:

First of all, the biological side: Dogs are highly social animals with highly developed social skills. Their whole behaviour and makeup is geared towards social interactions. Preferably with other dogs, but they're pretty content with humans too.
Keeping dogs away from social interaction and stimulus;
a) is against their nature
b) prevents them from developing / excercising the social skills they need, if and when they are finally allowed to interact
c) may turn them into social cripples with communication deficiencies

Simple example: Observe dogs in the street. The "old type" dog that is allowed come and go as it pleases and roams the streets all day, you will hardly ever find in fights or altercations ...that dog has had ample opportunity to practise and hone its social skills and avoid conflicts. On the other hand you will see fluffy little couch potatoes being dragged through parks on leads that are never even allowed near another dog ...if two of those ever do get close to each other, a fight (or at least some very noisy commotion) is very highly likely.
That's inter-species communication gone wrong because of lack of social interaction ...the same happens on the dog / people level if social interaction isn't excercised and practised regularly.

Secondly, the training side:
A dog , that is manageable and a pleasure to have around, is usually a trained dog and a dog that knows its place within the group. To achieve this it needs training, encouragement and correction on a continous basis. The more contact it has the smaller the individual training lessons and necessary corrections have to be. But if the dog is left to it's own devices all day long, it will not only not learn new things that it is supposed to learn (because nobody is there to guide it) but it will develop its own, very distinct ideas of what is and what isn't good for it. That means, the more time it spends untrained and uncorrected, the bigger and harsher the lessons have to become when they happen. At a certain point, the dog finally becomes unmanageable.

The "real" side:
"Sure, I'm only leaving it alone while I'm at work". That implies something like eight hours (which i think is too long to start with) ...but is it really?
Eight hours is the time most of us are supposed to spend AT work. We need to get there as well. Then we need to go shopping, collect kids, run errands socialize occasionally and so on.
So how much time does that leave for the dog? Certainly not enough.

The practical side:
A dog on its own is unsupervised. Therefore all sorts of things might happen without you knowing;
- it might knock over its water and almost dehydrate
- it might injure itself badly, with noone there to help
- it might be a nuisance to neighbours
- it might get stolen
- it might damage things
- it might eat stuff that's poisonous
and so on and so on

So, in short, leaving a dog alone should only be done for short(-ish) periods.

as I said ...my opinion

aare

peasant wrote:

Too subjective because you haven't noticed the differences? Or too subjective because you think I'm off with the fairies again?

Can I refuse to answer that on the grounds that I don't actually BELIEVE in fairies...as such?

peasant wrote:

No, not "it WILL" ...it might.

"Will, most likely" and "might" are generally considered synonymous statements. :rolleyes: NOW look what you made me do?

AGAIN

peasant wrote:

Some dogs (according to my personal experience quite a few) will not sleep happily if left to their own devices, because they get stressed on their own.
The need is the need of a highly social animal to belong to a group ...even if that whole group is asleep Perceived abandonment means stress.
...and I still don't follow you on the co-dependency thing. I certainly don't need my dogs ..though I freely admit to liking having them around ..but that's because they're gas characters.

It's not that you need your dogs (though you may), it's that you seem to need to feel that they need you, and THAT's where all the projective identification and co-dependency issues are coming into play.

Apart from which, all you are saying would be considered "left of field" not only by me, but also by most reasonable people.

peasant wrote:

So ..an Akita Inu for every working person in the audience? You do know, that they were bred as fighting dogs, deliberately aloof and independent?

Actually they were bred to hunt bears as much as anything, and be all purpose working dogs, intended to hunt or manage stock, usually with a single master, for life (I thought that, according to you, there are no such things as inbred traits? Particularly inbred fighting traits?)

peasant

aare wrote:

Can I refuse to answer that on the grounds that I don't actually BELIEVE in fairies...as such?

Ok ..I'll accept that
btw ...I'm beginning to enjoy your particular style of discussion

"Will, most likely" and "might" are generally considered synonymous statements. :rolleyes: NOW look what you made me do?

I don't have a dictionary to hand ..but as far as I remember there is quite some distance between "might" and "will most likely" ... I'd guesstimate about 50% - 60% likelihood (Nitpicking 101)

It's not that you need your dogs (though you may), it's that you seem to need to feel that they need you, and THAT's where all the projective identification and co-dependency issues are coming into play.

And thats where you are wrong ...I don't need to feel that they need me. They mostly need each other and some idiot to feed them and to throw them a ball once in a while. I'm well aware of that.

Apart from which, all you are saying would be considered "left of field" not only by me, but also by most reasonable people.

And again ..you are expressing an opinion. Yours and that of an unspecified mass of allegedly reasonable people. Duly noted. I've expressed mine ...live with it.

Actually they were bred to hunt bears as much as anything, and be all purpose working dogs, intended to hunt or manage stock, usually with a single master, for life (I thought that, according to you, there are no such things as inbred traits? Particularly inbred fighting traits?)

Maybe I wasn't clear enough on this ...my emphasis was (supposed to be) on aloof and independent ..not "fighting" ...because yes ..the fighting bit needs additional training / motivation.
Indepence on the other hand can be an inbred trait ...best examples are all the independently working flock guardians.

Next ...


Afterthought:

To get you off this tangent of my alleged co-dependancy with my dogs, please allow me to quote myself from my second post in this thread (I know what you're getting at ..but it doesn't apply to me or my relationship to my dogs)

peasant, much earlier in this thread wrote:

There are different levels of animal abuse:

One is the plain and obvoius ...neglect, maltreatment, physical cruelty ...every thinking human being abhors these kind of things.

But there is a more subtle level as well. It isn't abuse in the physical sense, using violence or open cruelty. It happens on a subconscious level, by people who either treat an animal as an accessory or, just as bad, equal it to a human being, making it out to replace the human child or partner they never had.

Both, accessorising and humansing, is animal cruelty as well. It consists of a failure to realise and respect the basic needs and rights of the animal. Instead of treating the animal according to its natural needs and adjusting their lifestyles and routines accordingly, people squeeze the animal into a role that they have designed for it. Be it as a lifestyle accessory or as a surrogate child. The animal is expected to perform along the desired behaviour patterns, to function... instead of being enabled to live according to its individual needs.

This is a very new trend. It is taking places as people become more and more affluent, more and more selfish and society turns out to be more and more competitive and less morally balanced.

People increasingly turn to animals to fill certain voids in their lives. Be it that they need to project an image or that they need someone that they can "love" and who loves them back unconditionally.

This is done for totally and utterly selfish reasons, with very little to no regard towards the right and needs of the animals.