Intonation problems...

Closing Doors

Ok here's the story: about a year ago I bought a Gibson Lc1 Cascade while I was in California. Played with for about 3/4s of an hour in the shop and had no problems. So I buy it and take it home to Ireland with me...only when I get home and tune the strings back up (was advised to detune the strings for the flights) the intonation is a little outta whack. For the fretted notes on the 3rd string to sound right I have to tune slightly flat of G....which has annoyed me no end :mad:

Due to personal stuff I'm only getting around to getting it sorted out now. Having asked around, I've been advised to go to a guy out by Marley Park - Derek Nelson/Nielson? I've also been told it might cost a fair bit...which is fine, I just want to get people's opinions on what a reasonable price to get this fixed would be? Is it a big deal/job? It's only on the one string...which struck me as a bit odd actually but anyway...any and all advice appreciated

Beecher

Firstly nice guitar! Secondly any music shop should be able to handle your intonation problem (I would recommend Musician Inc). Its really not a big job, and in most cases i'd recommend doing it yourself (its great to know how to maintain your own guitar) but not with something as nice as that just in case you damage it. I'd be suprised if it cost more than 20-25 euro (including new strings)

Doctor J

Setting the intonation on an acoustic isn't as straightforward as you think, bring it to Derrick Nelson. He's a top man and will do the job right. Don't take chances with a guitar like that one (it's very nice indeed).

Johnny Storm

(Apologies in adavnce if this is too bleedin' obvious)
Have you tried changing the strings?

Quattroste

True Johnny, there is no mention of new strings and the problem persisting.

Sweet acoustic though! :cool:

Closing Doors

Yeah I've changed the strings many many times....that's definately not the problem. It is slightly less noticable with higher gauge strings though, can't imagine why

Soon after I got it, I brought it around town (although not Musician), to see if anywhere would fix or at least ask for somewhere that would. Derrick Nelson kept getting recommended...but do you think he'll cost a bomb? Funds are a bit tight, what me heading back to college and no job for the year as yet! A ballpark figure would be great. There was another guy on South Circular Road that I got referred to, but I can't think of his name. Thanks to everyone who's replied so far btw

Doctor J

Give him a ring. He'll tell you how much it'll cost (roughly) before he does anything, so you can say "No thnaks, too expensive" if that is the case.

I'd bring it to him rather than the shops in town (with respect) who might be fine for little setup tweaks but this sounds like more than a setup issue.

Quattroste

I've gone to Derrick Nelson and the man is very helpful. I had my fretboard sanded by him for €15! He builds guitars so he knows what it takes to fix any issues you may have. He may not be able to give you a quote over the phone but he wont charge you to assess the problem

Have you contacted Gibson?

Eoin Madsen

Closing Doors wrote:

Yeah I've changed the strings many many times....that's definately not the problem. It is slightly less noticable with higher gauge strings though, can't imagine why

Higher gauge strings put higher tension on the neck. The purpose of the truss rod is to oppose this tension by applying force in the opposite direction. The idea is to adjust the truss to balance the tension of the strings - the final aim being that the distance between the nut and the saddle would be perfectly bisected by the 12th fret. If the guitar is well made this will also yield ideal string height all along the neck.

I would guess your original problem was in taking the guitar from the warmth and humidity of California to a more temperate Ireland. Wood changes shape in different temperatures and humidity levels which very often affects intonation. It's relatively easily corrected with a truss rod adjustment though.

I would be inclined to go with the recommendation that you not do it yourself. But I think you're going to find it's stupidly expensive to get Derrick Nelson to do it for you.

Doctor J

You'd expect it to affect more than just one string if it was a mere truss rod adjustment required though. There could be a more serious issue at the root of this, in which case getting a real expert to cast his eye over it would be my recommended course of action and that won't cost a cent for him to look at it and diagnose what needs doing and give a quote. At least then, if he chooses to take it elsewhere for the repair he has a realistic idea of what is required and how much it'll be. I find Derrick to be quite reasonable for the small jobs and justifiably expensive for the big stuff.

Indeed, if the neck was arched to such an extent as to affect intonation that badly you'd expect some fretting out and other playability issues.

Eoin Madsen

True.

Neck warpage does seem unlikely given the scenario. As I think of it, my first guess would probably be the nut or the saddle.

Anyway, in the meantime it would be actually be quite useful to measure how far the G is out of tune at a few of the frets (1st, 7th, 12th) when tuned to G in the open position. And probably check a couple of other strings to compare - there's a fair possibility that a uniform intonation problem would still manifest more prominently on the G-string given that it's most often used to play thirds.

Closing Doors

First of all thanks again to everybody who has responded...you've been very helpful

Eoin Madsen wrote:

I would guess your original problem was in taking the guitar from the warmth and humidity of California to a more temperate Ireland. Wood changes shape in different temperatures and humidity levels which very often affects intonation. It's relatively easily corrected with a truss rod adjustment though.

I thought about that, but like Doctor J said, if that were the case you would expect it to affect more than the one string. I'll try and measure how far the notes are out like you suggested and post up results later. I should mention though that when I slap a capo on any fret, the problem (to my ear) more or less disappears. It could well be that it's just much less pronounced in that scenario than without a capo...I don't know if that sheds any more light on the subject for you...

I think I'll try and pop over to Derrick during the next couple of days, and needless to say I'll keep y'all up to date as the saga unfolds

Doctor J

Sounds like your nut. If the intonation is ok with a capo then you can assume the bridge is fine. Might just be a badly cut nut and shouldn't be too expensive to do properly. Good news for you, methinks.

Closing Doors

That is good news
Would a badly cut nut account for the problem being more noticeable with lower gauge strings?

Doctor J

It could, depending on how the nut is cut. For example, a thinner gauge string would sit deeper into a V cut (if that's how it is cut, of course) and the problem could be more pronounced.