Hand from the PS €50+R (HH)

NickyOD

preflop raiser is looser than Paris Hilton. How do you proceed here? Its no longer in the rebuy peroid but that doesn't make much difference to the pllay at the table.

PokerStars Game #2628371869: Tournament #12672413, Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2005/09/21 - 16:28:31 (ET)
Table '12672413 18' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 2: NickyOD (7290 in chips)
Seat 3: Gemini26 (5525 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 4: Samanda (5100 in chips)
Seat 5: colson10 (11065 in chips)
Seat 6: melthemaster (5350 in chips)
Seat 7: parksy1066 (4073 in chips)
Seat 8: JRJ69 (7722 in chips)
Seat 9: perpeteum (7100 in chips)
perpeteum: posts small blind 75
NickyOD: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to NickyOD [Qh 8h]
Gemini26: folds
Samanda: folds
colson10: raises 300 to 450
melthemaster: folds
parksy1066: folds
JRJ69: folds
perpeteum: folds
NickyOD: calls 300
*** FLOP *** [2s 5h 9h]
NickyOD: ????

Ste05

that's a tricky one, I think a raise here will induce a re-raise, especially as he's the chip leader at the table, what sort of a player was he?? If he was a good LAG I think I'd have to check it to the raiser and see how much he will bet. Although this is about as good a flop as you could have hoped for with this hand, why did you call this bet?? Maybe a 1/2 pot sized bet would be in order, and see how much the re-raise is, I can't see this guy giving up the betting lead though, so I'd expect a re-raise??

NickyOD

Ste05 wrote:

that's a tricky one, I think a raise here will induce a re-raise, especially as he's the chip leader at the table, what sort of a player was he?? If he was a good LAG I think I'd have to check it to the raiser and see how much he will bet. Although this is about as good a flop as you could have hoped for with this hand, why did you call this bet?? Maybe a 1/2 pot sized bet would be in order, and see how much the re-raise is, I can't see this guy giving up the betting lead though, so I'd expect a re-raise??

Postflop he has actually played quite well in the limited number of hands I've see but he is seeing far too many flops with bad cards and his stack is yo-yoing

EDIT. I just realised he is a very good player ranked high on P5. 2nd in one of the WCOOP events for 58K and won the 100K on paradise recently.

http://www.pocketfives.com/44F88F6B-A4FA-4ED7-A87A-298EE0FD6221.aspx

Marq

With the size of your stack in relation to the blinds I would have folded pre-flop. I don't see the reason for getting involved with a marginal hand out of position against the big stack at the table when you have almost 50 BB's.

However, that's not your question. We're in this hand now, let's play it. There's certainly an argument for check-calling any bet that gives you the correct odds to your flush and possibly live overcard, and dropping the hand to a larger bet. there's certainly a logic to not throwing good money after bad here and possibly getting heavily involved with a marginal hand in a small pot.

On the other hand, this is a pretty good flop considering your holding, so I would probably take a more aggressive line. The flop is rags, but considering how loose you say this player is he could well have hit it. we have so little information that I think it is important to bet here. if you check it's most likely an autobet from the villian, which gains us no information. At least with a bet if he comes back raising we know that he's serious about the hand, and it could also make it cheaper for us to draw to the flush, should he decide not to raise us. If he does raise we can then reevaluate the situation having probably lost the least chips possible. If we have our odds to call we cal, if not we get out and wait until we have a proper hand before getting involved in a pot.

I'm betting 450 - 500 here.

Ste05

Without knowing his pedigree, as I assume you didn't at the time, I think I'd bet about the pot to find out where you stand.

However knowing he is a good player nothing wrong with getting out of the way, check hoping for a free card (unlikely) or see what odds he is offering, anything less than a pot sized bet I'd say he'll take the pot down with a good bet.

Why get involved with a very good player who has you covered in chips, without a strong holding??

What happened anyway??

BigDragon

Colson 10

One of the top tournament players in 2005 on both UB and PokerStars. Won the May 2005 TLB on Stars. Winner of the $100k guaranteed on Paradise in August, 2005.

FYI

padser

I dont think id bet half the pot. The flop obviosly doesnt favour a pre flop raiser and betting half the pot to me smacks of trying to steal. Id be inclined to check. Uv already called 300 so he has to be vary of what you had....you might get a free card. Even if you dont if he bets half the pot you could nearly call it for the implied odds. Bottom line i think your best bet of seeing another cheap card is to check

NickyOD

I will leave this open to discussion for a while, but I will say 2 things. Folding preflop here when getting better than 2:1 against a player who's range is off the charts is beyond weak tight. Also if you are going to avoid playing against a particular player just because he is very good (which I didn't know at the time but would have played te hand the same) then you'll get eaten alive at tough table because you'll have learned nothing.

Ste05

NickyOD wrote:

I will leave this open to discussion for a while, but I will say 2 things. Folding preflop here when getting better than 2:1 against a player who's range is off the charts is beyond weak tight. Also if you are going to avoid playing against a particular player just because he is very good (which I didn't know at the time but would have played te hand the same) then you'll get eaten alive at tough table because you'll have learned nothing.

Agreed - Think I wrote that cos I'm on a terrible run at the moment, the Dreaded Doom switch has been well and truly switched on for me lately..... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Trying to play through it tonight after taking 2 nights off.....

RoundTower

NickyOD wrote:

Folding preflop here when getting better than 2:1 against a player who's range is off the charts is beyond weak tight.

I don't agree. I like to play lots of hands, but not out of position like this. You aren't much if any ahead of his likely range of hands, and it is unlikely you can outplay him postflop - even if you didn't know who he was, you knew he played well postflop.

I think I checkraise on this flop.

Lafortezza

What's Villains likely image of Hero?

I'd push.

Marq

lafortezza wrote:

I'd push.

this is a joke yes?
there's 975 in the pot, you push for almost 7k?

Lafortezza

Crap, misread I thought Nicky only had 3k, with 7k I'd bet the pot, folding to a big reraise.

NickyOD

Here's how it played out. Which of us played it worse?

NickyOD: checks
colson10: bets 600
NickyOD: raises 1200 to 1800
colson10: raises 3000 to 4800
NickyOD: raises 2040 to 6840 and is all-in
colson10: calls 2040
*** TURN *** [2s 5h 9h] [4d]
*** RIVER *** [2s 5h 9h 4d] [5c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
NickyOD: shows [Qh 8h] (a pair of Fives)
colson10: shows [7h Th] (a pair of Fives - lower kicker)
NickyOD collected 14655 from pot

Jaden

Tough Call.

I still don't see the problem with folding pre-flop.

NickyOD

Jaden wrote:

Tough Call.

I still don't see the problem with folding pre-flop.

Because If I only played good hands in the blinds I'd be pretty easy pickings.

Ste05

NickyOD wrote:

NickyOD collected 14655 from pot

Phew!!!

Looks like two aggressive players locking horns with draws, I think this check is what got you in trouble, and this 600 bet got him in trouble, both showed weakness and the other picked up on it. The rest was history as you both got yourself further pot committed.

Marq

I really hate the check raise here. I think that you gain no more information than if you had bet out, but it's costing you more. Now you have to call off your relatively big stack on a non-nut flush draw and one overcard because you've pretty much given yourself the odds to do so. what a horrible situation you've landed yourself in.

Admittedly, putting in the second raise with ten high is extremely poor play from your opponent.

2.25:1 pot odds make your pre-flop call marginal but acceptable considering your opponents possible range of hands, but you distort your odds on the flop with your check raise and put yourself in a silly spot for all of your chips. How often do you think, percentage wise, that you will win this hand in a showdown with your hand, this flop, and that betting, against this opponent's range of hands?

I still think that check-calling or leading at the flop are better lines. even if you bet out and he raises you still get to see the Turn for less than your whole tank.

Marq

willis

Agree with marq, hate the check raise especially against a player with the ability to re re-raise you with nothing. Im interseted nicky as to why you pushed after he came back over the top of your check raise!correct me if im wrong but if you fold here you will have 5k left with blinds 75/150,still plenty enough.hes pot committed to call your allin here. Now you may say pot odds dictate your allin on the turn however is tourny survival not paramount here?

Culchie

Yeh, didn't like the play either Nicky, tbh.
Mind you I would have folded preflop against this fellah, so probably too tight.

NickyOD

Thanks for the responses. This type of hand is one of those grey areas about about tournament strategy. I don't think any of the answers are 100% right or wrong. This is just my opinion.

I felt there was too big an overlay on the pot odds to fold after he came over the top of my check raise. Granted I was lucky to be ahead but even if I take out his flush draws there is still too much in the pot to fold. If I do I will have a below average stack of 5K If I win I am top 3 with 15K. Microedges are key in these buy ins. If this was a $10 freezeout then then I'd obviously have a different strategy as their would be weak players to exploit but there aren't too many here. This is as good an oportunity as I can expect ti find, to get chips to go deep in the tournament.

There's a lot of reason why you should defend your blind here. For one you are showing the table your blinds are not for stealing. Also Getting 2:25:1 Q8 suited is coordinated enough a hand to play, especially against a player with a big range, regardless of how good a player he is, you should be confident enough to take a shot at him when we are nowhere near the money yet. The blinds are low so its a small % of mny stack to risk. Obviously if I am down to 20 blinds then I fold here.

As for the check raise I don't mind check calling at all, but if you check raise here you take it down on this kind of flop the vast majority of the time. Granted I will price myself into a chase but I tihnk the risk is worth taking in a tournament where you aren't going to get chips just handed to you.


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

75,240 games 0.070 secs 1,074,857 games/sec

Board: 2s 5h 9h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 46.9351 % 46.94% 00.00% { 99+, AhKh, AhQh, AhJh, AhTh, Ah9h, Ah7h, Ah6h, Ah5h, Ah4h, Ah3h, Ah2h, KhJh, KhTh, Kh9h, JhTh, Jh9h, Th9h, Th7h, Th6h, 9h7h, 8h6h, 76s, 7h5h, 6h5h, 6h4h, 5h4h, 43s, 76o, 43o }
Hand 2: 53.0649 % 53.06% 00.00% { Qh8h }

Ste05

NickyOD wrote:

I felt there was too big an overlay on the pot odds to fold after he came over the top of my check raise.

Then why not go over the top with a much bigger raise and take the pot down here, instead of these smaller raises, surely these only price you both in and especially if you're willing to commit all your chips with this hand anyway....
If you think you're draw is live (and probably the better one) it means that if you get called it's highly unlikely you're drawing dead, even if he has trips or an overpair?? All you need to be afraid of is him calling with the A or K flush draw??? Surely you didn't think your Q high was in front??

NickyOD

Ste05 wrote:

Then why not go over the top with a much bigger raise and take the pot down here

because then it looks like a flush draw.

I generally raise the same amount all the time including when I reraise it is usally around 3 times the bet. That way I don't give away any info on my betting patterns.

Ste05

NickyOD wrote:

because then it looks like a flush draw.

Could it not equally look like a solid hand, trips, over pair etc. protecting against the flush draw?? trying to take the pot down now, or would these hands bet smaller to keep flush draws in the hand?? hmmmm :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

If it could be read as such, against good players, it would really only leave a draw (hopefully weaker) with the option to possibly gamble and call, but over pairs, TPTK, etc. might just fold??

I'm just curious cos I certainly wouldn't always put an over bet from the BB on a flush draw here??? :rolleyes:

Having said all that, I do see the virtue in always re-raising the same, regardless of whether you have a good draw, made hand, the nuts, etc. etc. so as to confuse your opponents, and thereby making it difficult for them to read you. It also makes things easier for yourself, not having to over-think your last 20 plays and therefore possibly make mistakes :mad: :mad: that can be picked up on by good players .....

Marq

I generally raise the same amount all the time including when I reraise it is usally around 3 times the bet. That way I don't give away any info on my betting patterns.

I think that if you subscribe to this way of thinking about raise and bet sizing then you are sacraficing a lot of the benefits that No Limit Hold'em affords.

Hectorjelly

Lead out small and then go all in when he raises. This has a number of benefits over any other line, and its difficult for him to call even with an overpair and its a line usually used with sets/two pair. It also means that a hand like KQ will fold, as KQ can bet all in but cant call all in.

Betting out and folding makes it too easy for your opponent to raise you off the hand, with anything.

From reading your posts Id advise trying to cut down on the number of checkraises you attempt. Except in certain cirumstances (usually shortstacked tournament situations) there is a better line to take.

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

Lead out small and then go all in when he raises. This has a number of benefits over any other line, and its difficult for him to call even with an overpair and its a line usually used with sets/two pair. It also means that a hand like KQ will fold, as KQ can bet all in but cant call all in.

Betting out and folding makes it too easy for your opponent to raise you off the hand, with anything.

From reading your posts Id advise trying to cut down on the number of checkraises you attempt. Except in certain cirumstances (usually shortstacked tournament situations) there is a better line to take.

Yeah I think that's usually a better option. I would often try to disguise the flush draw by leading. I'm often worried if I do that though that he will just call behind and then take the pot away from me on the turn. If he smooth calls would you bet the turn?

Jaden

NickyOD wrote:

There's a lot of reason why you should defend your blind here. For one you are showing the table your blinds are not for stealing.

This is a perfectly valid point, and I see it done alot. I too will defend my blinds, BUT only if it's worth it. I myself would have dropped this hand pre-flop.

The flip side to this is that someone who will defend their blinds with a large range of hands is making themselves a target. I'll happily let my blind go 2 or 3 times with marginal hands, and defend with a better one, but do so VERY agressively. With my playing style, this is +EV.

If a guy thinks he can push me off my BB with a 3x or 4x raise, let him try twice. The third time when he tries it, and gets re-raised, I have told him that I can let hands go, but play quality hands when I do play. If he calls he's probably behind, if he folds, I'm still up.

I reckon that over half of all players I knock out of tournaments, I do so while I'm BB. Sometimes I'm praying that someone tries to steal. If you agressively defend your blinds with muck, then not only do you become a target, but you also put off people from stealing. But this is a matter of styles of play.

Nicky is a player who likes to outplay others, and from some of the HH I've seen, and the occassional snoop around on-line, he does it very well. That's his style.

I prefer to play my own game, and let other players make mistakes, on which I capitalize. Some people think this style is too passive, but everyone makes mistakes all the time. Think Andy Black with KJ and the final table of this years WSOP. My victories come mainly by attrition.

Type one players win by beating all other players, type two by letting other players beat one another or themselves.

Which are you?

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

Yeah I think that's usually a better option. I would often try to disguise the flush draw by leading. I'm often worried if I do that though that he will just call behind and then take the pot away from me on the turn. If he smooth calls would you bet the turn?

If he smooth calls the flop you have a lot of options on the turn. Assuming you dont hit anything you could

A) give him credit for the hand and check fold
Lead out again. If he raises you here you really need to fold, but it would take big balls for him to do this with nothing, assuming you bet out pretty big (3/4 +) pot
C) think for a while then go all in. he cant call without an overpair
D) Check raise him all in. This is good because you will often get a free look at the river, and the stacks sizes are just right.

NickyOD

Jaden wrote:

Type one players win by beating all other players, type two by letting other players beat one another or themselves.
Which are you?

I think a lot of it has to do with the buy in for online tournaments. In $5, $10 and $20 tournaments a bookish TAG style of play is very profitable because you can simply wait for your oponents to make mistakes and exploit them. This is true in most live tournaments in Ireland with higher buy ins. The problem online when you start playing the $50s and $100s is their are less players for you to exploit and on pokerstars in particuar a lot of players at your table will be full time professionals who've notched up serious 4 and 5 figure cashes online. You need to try and make big plays for pots on semi bluffs sometimes, you must be more aggressive and must defend you blinds because you will hardly ever see a cheap flop. If you just play ABC poker and wait for hands at that level you will get rolled over.

Ste05

Jaden wrote:

I reckon that over half of all players I knock out of tournaments, I do so while I'm BB. Sometimes I'm praying that someone tries to steal. If you agressively defend your blinds with muck, then not only do you become a target, but you also put off people from stealing. But this is a matter of styles of play.

I think this is a major flaw in your thinking, how often will you get big hands when it's your BB compared to muck??? Certaintly no where every 3 times or so!!! The times you play back at these players with your AK, or what ever, they'll just know to fold and steal the next time!!! You need to get your BB for free more here!!

However by using your reasoning you could equally argue in the reverse, if you always (or alot of the time) play back at steal attempts then they might just go over the top with a marginal hand and when you're holding big cards you can take all their chips!!!
But basically you want people to know your blinds are not there for the taking..