Fitz €100 Bubble play

The Snapper

On the bubble in the fitz last nite, this happened.

Player A. 14k chips UTG
Player B. 12k chips SB
(Some of the shorterstacked players)

Blinds 1500 / 3000 6 Handed

Player A; A loose aggressive player has raised a lot recently should really be out of tourney but some nice man gave his small all in bet major protection by reraising all in with Kh9h and scaring the 3 other callers away.

Player B; A tight player has only shown down strong hands at this table.

Player A min raises folded to Player B in sb who has Ac9c

What play do you make here ?

Culchie

Are you B ?

10500 in pot at this stage?

I push here, I don't like it, but it's got to be done, if you want to win this tourney.

You just want to limp into the money, then fold, I'm gunning for the win here though.

Lafortezza

What's Mr. LAG min-raising from UTG with? A reasonable Ax, a pocket pair or something pretty like KJs. Personally at this stage of the tournament (with this stack size relative to the blinds) I'd be happy with a 50-50, so I'd push with the Ac9c. I wouldn't feel too happy about it though.

The Snapper

Culchie wrote:

Are you B ?

Yes I am B

NickyOD

That's one funky ass play for someone with less than 5BBs left. Unless he min raises 100% of the time with AA you should push.

Ste05

I think I'd have to fold, here, although wouldn't like it, I think at best you're a 50-50, this min-raise looks like he wants someone to go over the top, and IMHO shows more strength than an all-in by him, he wants action, therefore I'd put him on any decent pocket pair, A10 or above, but possibly a weak A, maybe even KQ hoping to have live cards. However having said that seeing as it's his BB next and so will make this move to represent strength, a tough decision to make.

It would really have to come down to you're read on him. Interested to see how this worked out though. But nothing wrong with a push here, and hope you don't run into a better hand.

kinaldo

i'm guessing u pushed, he had a high pair or higher A, and u lost?

it's such a strange play from Player A utg that I'd almost be tempted into folding, given that you're on the button next.

Culchie

Ste05 wrote:

I think I'd have to fold, here, although wouldn't like it, I think at best you're a 50-50, this min-raise looks like he wants someone to go over the top, and IMHO shows more strength than an all-in by him, he wants action, therefore I'd put him on any decent pocket pair, A10 or above, but possibly a weak A, maybe even KQ hoping to have live cards. However having said that seeing as it's his BB next and so will make this move to represent strength, a tough decision to make.

It would really have to come down to you're read on him. Interested to see how this worked out though.

All of this is fine, but he has only 4BB's left.

If UTG wants action, it should be given to him, Snapper's back is to the wall, and 6 handed he is in the 'dead zone', it's now or never.

I'd hate having to stick them in myself with A9, but it has to be done.

The Snapper

Ok, I did'nt want to just limp to the final table and I really felt I was ahead but it was going to be a coin flip situation so I did push. After a long think he called and flipped over Q-10 os.

10 on the flop and I'm bubbled.

I spoke to him afterwards and he said he was pot committed / pot odds the usual stuff.

Any thoughts on his call, is it an autocall .

thanks again. You guys are a big help.

Culchie

You had something similar to what I would have put him on.

He should have pushed all-in or fold.

You did perfectly right in pushing.

Hard Luck

kinaldo

a min raise with QT utg less than 5BBs left!? Who is this player? I wanna be able to use this information to my advantage sometime.

Culchie

kinaldo wrote:

a min raise with QT utg less than 5BBs left!? Who is this player? I wanna be able to use this information to my advantage sometime.

Well, he fooled a few here didn't he , so it wasn't the worst play in the world, it represented strength.

Snapper was having none of it though.

biteme

He either calls now with a half decent hand or waits for two random cards in the next hand. He doesn't really have a choice, it's an autocall. I don't know what to make of his play. It all depends on the table and his table image. I'm suprised he didn't push UTG here to make an attempt at stealing the blinds or getting just one single caller.

He played the hand to display as much strength as possible, not a bad play on his behalf I think. I think you have the oppertunity to fold here and be left with 10.5 and then push on one of the next couple of hands in an attempt to steal the blinds or get into a better situation where you cards are more likely to be live or you are more likely to be ahead. I'd be very weary of someone min raising half their stack as they are going to be forced to call you if you go over the top

Ste05

Strange play by him, I'd say he was just trying to represent more strength than by going all-in hoping to pick up the blinds giving himself another orbit, if he got called or raised he could hope for a 50 50 or at least live cards. But it absolutely was an instacall for him. He was as pot committed as you can get!!

Got your point too Culchie, I had edited my first post cos left out that a push was fine too,

UL Snapper

The Snapper

kinaldo wrote:

a min raise with QT utg less than 5BBs left!? Who is this player? I wanna be able to use this information to my advantage sometime.

Ha , can't help there , don't know this guys name. i'm sure somebody who does will piece it all together though.

ocallagh

it was very strange play UTG with QT... I don't like it. He was trying to represent strength UTG while not commiting too many of his chips.. but without realsing it, he was pot commited.. He was better off pushing with QT UTG

I was at your table when K9 decided he'd give protection. I folded AJ to that lads ridiculous all-in...

Ste05

Another point that seems to have been overlooked in relation to my post, is that this was on the bubble also, meaning that the possility that he would make a play of this kind here is reduced, meaning that a fold, although it would have been the incorrect (pre-flop) decision, might have been the more prudent one.

I realise that to win these tournaments you have to double up and steal blinds on the bubble, but in this situation there was no stealing potential and so a fold could still be advocated.

Having said that, you made the right read, and got your money in when you were ahead, (60-40ish fav) and got unlucky.

Thoughts??

The Snapper

ocallagh wrote:

it was very strange play UTG with QT... I don't like it. He was trying to represent strength UTG while not commiting too many of his chips.. but without realsing it, he was pot commited.. He was better off pushing with QT UTG

I was at your table when K9 decided he'd give protection. I folded AJ to that lads ridiculous all-in...

Yeah I was the swine who put you out AA v JJ very unlucky there since you were very patient waiting for the hand to push with.

Ste05

ocallagh wrote:

it was very strange play UTG with QT... I don't like it. He was trying to represent strength UTG while not commiting too many of his chips.. but without realsing it, he was pot commited.. He was better off pushing with QT UTG

Surely he realised he was pot committed :eek: :eek: ??? Maybe I'm giving this guy too much credit??

kinaldo

Culchie wrote:

Well, he fooled a few here didn't he , so it wasn't the worst play in the world, it represented strength.

Snapper was having none of it though.

sure he got away with it that time as no one had a decent hand. any decent hand can call a min raise and if anyone just calls him he's in a lot of trouble as the bb would then have great odds to call too. plus he's out of position after the flop and his stack isn't deep enough to take it down if he doesn't hit

Culchie

The UTG could have been thinking the same thing .... "Nobody will think I've only a half decent hand min raising UTG and it's bubble time".

Interesting scenario.

I still think the UTG should have pushed all-in himself, but I'm enjoying his deviousness as well.

(I'm giving him credit that it was intentional, I'm sure he knew he was pot committed......given it was the €100 )

Culchie

kinaldo wrote:

sure he got away with it that time as no one had a decent hand. any decent hand can call a min raise and if anyone just calls him he's in a lot of trouble as the bb would then have great odds to call too. plus he's out of position after the flop and his stack isn't deep enough to take it down if he doesn't hit

I already pinned my colours to the mast what I thought he should have done, but I can see why he did it, that's all I'm saying.

Ste05

If he had have been just called , which would have been very unusual IMHO, anyone going to play with him is surely going to commit him. He actually had the position he would want to be in, i.e. acting first, therefore he had a tiny % chance the caller would fold but there was no way this money wasn't all going in the middle had the flop been seen.

bmc

I like UTG's play here too.

5 X the BB - all-in is likely to pick up more callers than he'd like from the big stacks. You want a heads up 50-50 if you get called. A min raise with only 5 BBs left represents strength. He's putting almost half his stack in here so anyone who knows should be able to tell that this is going to cost 5BBs or nothing.

You had A9s with only 4BBs left. Instant push!

Having said that I liked UTG's play I'm not certain he had it thought through. With your push his only option is instant call.

I think the hand was played perfectly although I don't understand the hesitancy of either of the players.

The Snapper

Ste05
Having said that, you made the right read, and got your money in when you were ahead, (60-40ish fav) and got unlucky.

This suprises me wouldnt have thought as much as 60/40. I did check and you are spot on. Not that I doubted you

bmc

Oh wait. I do understand. It's bubble syndrome... Try to forget this whole bubble thing if you can! Limping into the money is not smart.

Ste05

bmc wrote:

You had A9s with only 4BBs left. Instant push!

I think the hand was played perfectly although I don't understand the hesitancy of either of the players.

I wouldn't be so certain that this A9 push is all that instant, it would depend alot on the player, you have to remember this was on the bubble in a €100 tournament!!

Do you still think this is an instant push?? I say well played to Snapper for taking his time over this decision.

Ste05

Ah I see your answer above and your opinions, I would agree limping into the money isn't good, but going out on the bubble is worse.

ocallagh

The Snapper wrote:

Yeah I was the swine who put you out AA v JJ very unlucky there since you were very patient waiting for the hand to push with.

Nice work! I built up a good stack b4 the break.. 18k or so. But after the break a series of hands chipped away at my stack... I doubled up a short stack with 88 vs QQ. Then AK failed to hit in a pot of 12k. Nothing went well including that K9 hand.. With the blinds at 400-800 suddenly I found myself a short stack!!

I had an interesting hand b4 the break. Blinds 150-300..Avg stack 6k. Solid Aggressive player makes it 900 UTG. I call with AKo in 2nd pos. 3rd pos also calls. BB (Decent Player) thinks for a while and calls. Flop AK4. UTG bets 5.5k (overbet). I think for 30secs and decide I'm good to go and announce all-in. 3rd pos folds, and it is on the BB who I expect has his hand half way to the muck, but no.... he is thinking! I know he'd fold anything but AK in a flash here.. and also as UTG has an Ace it is unlikely he has the 4th one. I suddenly get that sinking feeling as I figure the only hand this player could be thinking about is bottom set! I considered folding AK to UTG's overbet as AA/KK were possible so I just pray he is thinking the same thing.. And with my all-in it makes it more likely. He knows I'm tight enough so I'm relying on that too... Anyway.. after a minute or so he folds. UTG reluctantly calls and shows AQ. Then there is a shout from the SB asking the BB how he could fold that hand!! phew........ No runner runner and I take in 18K


sry - had to edit.. should really read over my posts before hitting that button

kinaldo

i still think min raising with QT in his position is the worst possible thing he could've done. it's just inviting trouble.

unlucky snapper

bmc

Ste05 wrote:

I wouldn't be so certain that this A9 push is all that instant, it would depend alot on the player, you have to remember this was on the bubble in a €100 tournament!!

Do you still think this is an instant push?? I say well played to Snapper for taking his time over this decision.

Absolutely instant push! What are you waiting for?

If you run into AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AK, AQ, AJ, AT then that's unlucky. Anything else and you either have a fifty percent chance, a sixty percent chance or better.

You have 5 BBs. You need more. You need them now! Fingers crossed. In they go. You win? Great! 11BBs and a chance to play again. You don't? Ah well! The bubble tournament is great value!

You fold? I hope you get some pretty cards soon or you're out anyway.


Edit:

you have to remember this was on the bubble in a €100 tournament!!

If he's worried about losing his €100 he's in the wrong game. Go back to the freerolls or the online €20 freezeouts. If you fold, you are hoping (and not likely) to get the bottom prize. What's that? Your money back? Why did you play?

Culchie

Ste05 wrote:

Ah I see your answer above and your opinions, I would agree limping into the money isn't good, but going out on the bubble is worse.

No it's not.

It's either the right play to make or it's not.

You have bubble syndrome I'm afraid, and it's quite a hard ailment to cure.

ocallagh

bmc wrote:

Absolutely instant push! What are you waiting for?

If you run into AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AK, AQ, AJ, AT then that's unlucky. Anything else and you either have a fifty percent chance, a sixty percent chance or better.

You have 5 BBs. You need more. You need them now! Fingers crossed. In they go. You win? Great! 11BBs and a chance to play again. You don't? Ah well! The bubble tournament is great value!

You fold? I hope you get some pretty cards soon or you're out anyway.

Absolutely not an instant push. It 100% depends on the player!! In a lot of circumstances it is the correct move, but if it's a tight player you're better off sticking it in with 45s on the button and taking in the blinds.

Ste05

Point taken lads, although I wouldn't be too worried about the bubble, it was just this individual spot, my thinking was there will be better spots in near future hoping the bubble lasts a few more hands than this one to steal some pots, not to "effectively" call an UTG raise for all my chips with A9!!

Also when you're in the money your chances of doubling up increase immensely, as more people are willing to gamble and I just think there possibly could have been a much better spot than this one.

But as his read was correct and he made the right play, I won't go on further. I wouldn't call it Bubble syndrome, just picking spots. This may have been a good enough spot for alot, maybe even myself too, but I was just trying to get a discussion started.

bmc

ocallagh wrote:

Absolutely not an instant push. It 100% depends on the player!! In a lot of circumstances it is the correct move, but if it's a tight player you're better off sticking it in with 45s on the button and taking in the blinds.

Perhaps. Maybe I'm too spontaneous in these situations.

Take a strong player. what cards do they need before they would min raise in this position? (Let's assume they ended up in that position due to an outdraw or an unlucky hand - i.e. not by being blinded away.) Personally, I think a strong player is more likely to do this with QT than anyone else.

Take a weak player. The see the blinds coming. They're under pressure. What cards do they play it with? Personally, I think they want to play any pretty cards but are afraid to push. (I reckon this is the category I put the player from the original post in, by the way.)

There is I suppose one type of player that might make me hesitate and that is the scared rock who has ended up in this situation by not playing a hand in the last ten rounds of the table. Even then, though, I would probably push. The folding equity is higher ;-)

These are just the opinions of an over aggressive player though.

The Snapper

Such diversity of opinion. Thats why its such a great game and on so many levels. I defo have no regrets here and am better able now to accept the broader picture, that getting the chips in 60/40 ahead is good and long term results will show this. Ok you lose this one but in the greater scheme are a winner.
His play was the aspect that interested me most in this hand and I am happy that my thought process was ok here.

Thanks a lot guys

mewso

How can anyone think a min raise UTG is a clever move. At the very least the BB will call a min raise most of the time so if getting everyone to fold is the plan then it's a very bad one.

Ste05

I think the move UTG was one that just something a little different, it disguised the true strength of his hand, I wouldn't look at this as a simple min raise for the BB to call, everyone knew that they were playing for all his chips, an all-in could have just looked desperate, and a play he could have made with any two cards, (seeing as how it was his BB next), at least this way he gave the impression of a stronger holding than he actually had.

Without knowing who the BB was and without any info on him, i.e. stack size, tight, loose, etc. etc. I don't think you can just automatically say he would have called. Maybe this guy made this play specifically because it was this guys BB, who knows besides the lads at the table??

I don't think anyone is saying that this guy UTG is a poker genius or anything, just an interesting play, who knows it might have been unintentional by him and just very badly played, I don't know what level of a player he was.

I'd be interested to hear what, if any difference an all-in in UTG would have made people do with this A9??

Myself personally would put him on a wider range of hands and would be happier calling expecting to be in front more than 60% of the time.

bmc

musician wrote:

How can anyone think a min raise UTG is a clever move. At the very least the BB will call a min raise most of the time so if getting everyone to fold is the plan then it's a very bad one.

In my mind, getting everyone to fold is NOT the plan. That's why it's clever.

Gamble - no lose!

You need chips. You're under the gun. QTs is a pretty hand. Cross your fingers. Hope you're no worse off than 30/70 and get your chips in AGAINST SOMEONE ELSES. It's hard to make many chips without callers.

Hey, if everyone folds you get the blinds. If the BB flat calls, push blind on the flop. Really you're desperate at this stage and need a caller and hopefully a win. You don't care if it's lucky. Down to 5BBs you need some luck. You may as well try for it now than when you are down to 4BBs or 3.

Edit:

I'm also not saying I think this guy's play is genius. I don't believe he planned the move I'm describing but rather planned a very different (and very poor) plan which resulted (accidentally) in the same sequence of actions.

The Snapper

Ste05 wrote:

I think the move UTG was one that just something a little different, it disguised the true strength of his hand, I wouldn't look at this as a simple min raise for the BB to call, everyone knew that they were playing for all his chips, an all-in could have just looked desperate, and a play he could have made with any two cards, (seeing as how it was his BB next), at least this way he gave the impression of a stronger holding than he actually had.

Without knowing who the BB was and without any info on him, i.e. stack size, tight, loose, etc. etc. I don't think you can just automatically say he would have called. Maybe this guy made this play specifically because it was this guys BB, who knows besides the lads at the table??

I don't think anyone is saying that this guy UTG is a poker genius or anything, just an interesting play, who knows it might have been unintentional by him and just very badly played, I don't know what level of a player he was.

I'd be interested to hear what, if any difference an all-in in UTG would have made people do with this A9??

Myself personally would put him on a wider range of hands and would be happier calling expecting to be in front more than 60% of the time.

A few points raised here

BB was new to table so he had no read on him

All-in from UTG I may or may not have called with Ac9C given my read on him and rather than blind away. It was hard to put much store in his raiseing as he raised far too frequently.

I may be wrong but I just dont think this was a clever thought out move.

careca

Surely there is the other option in this hand of simply calling his bet and pushig on the flop regardless. As it turned out you would still have lost but it could be a better play as he has to hit to call you. If no Q or 10 had come there is no way he can call.

Crumbs

careca wrote:

Surely there is the other option in this hand of simply calling his bet and pushig on the flop regardless. As it turned out you would still have lost but it could be a better play as he has to hit to call you. If no Q or 10 had come there is no way he can call.

I was going to advocate a stop'n'go too but then you're also giving the BB the option of joining in with good odds (although we're not told his stack size here). The all-in almost certainly gets you heads-up. I think it's a fine line between these two decisions.

mewso

bmc wrote:

In my mind, getting everyone to fold is NOT the plan. That's why it's clever.

Gamble - no lose!

You need chips. You're under the gun. QTs is a pretty hand. Cross your fingers. Hope you're no worse off than 30/70 and get your chips in AGAINST SOMEONE ELSES. It's hard to make many chips without callers.

Hey, if everyone folds you get the blinds. If the BB flat calls, push blind on the flop. Really you're desperate at this stage and need a caller and hopefully a win. You don't care if it's lucky. Down to 5BBs you need some luck. You may as well try for it now than when you are down to 4BBs or 3.

Edit:

I'm also not saying I think this guy's play is genius. I don't believe he planned the move I'm describing but rather planned a very different (and very poor) plan which resulted (accidentally) in the same sequence of actions.

Well this is where my thinking has changed from reading Harrington. If you only have 5 BB left and want to be called there is no point in min raising. All-in is the move. Of course you want someone elses chips so it's far better to push before it's your BB but with so few chips a min-raise means nothing. Not everyone understands pot odds but as the BB you are getting 3-1 to call the min-raise so most players would call, some even without realising they are using pot odds to make the decision just that there appears to be value in the call.
As to the A9 I would prefer to make my move at an unraised pot but if you are very low it doesn't get much better than A9 so I think a call is fine. Folding is also fine as long as you are prepared to get all of your chips in before your BB with any 2 cards.