The patriarchy

fly_agaric

Okay, I'm a bit of an internet addict. For the last while I've developed an unhealthy interest in "feminism" (a term which seems to have several different meanings, some derogatory ) and have read several self-professed "feminist" webpages and blogs. For the following, please bear in mind that I have not studied arts or the humanities in college and am perhaps speaking from my árse! The internet is very, very good for that though...

One big concept that all the different types of feminist seem to agree on (AFAICT) is "the patriarchy" and how it's a bad thing for us all.

http://www.answers.com/topic/patriarchy

"They" (AFAICT) say that society as been set up with an inbuilt bias that automatically favours men (especially the ones in power) and expresses itself through, well, basically everything you can think of from laws to popular culture. I suppose the root of this system would be the different "gender stereotypes/roles" that the patriarchal society imposes on men and women from when they are boys and girls.

For the purposes of this thread, I'd like to assume that

1. "the patriarchy" does exist.
2. The biggest influence on the behaviour of the "genders" is these roles/stereotypes rather than evolution and biology.

I'm not saying that these assumptions are correct and don't want to start off a massive war about whether they are or not. That's a whole other topic.

The reason I'm setting things up this way is that I'd like to ask any "feminists" (who would accept the two assumptions) or, I suppose anyone else who has an opinion a pair of linked questions.

What way should our currrent society (i.e. Ireland, but other basically Western countries too) change to eliminate the effect of this "patriarchy"?
I'd like some specific things, but over as broad an area as you like.

The kind of thing I'm wondering is what would the ideal society as planned by "feminists" from the ground up look like compared to the way things are now? The laws. The education system. The world of work. Families and childrearing. Popular culture. Etc.

Finally, be as wild as you like in terms of the technology that may be required to pull things off to your personal satisfaction.
Probably some geek in a white coat is working on it as we speak!

Victor

I've been thinking about this for a while, but haven't necessarily come to any decisions.

Over a drink with a South African friend I asked her a question on apartheid. Was apartheid about class or race? Her response was "class". South African society is dictated by where you live, what you drive, what school you go to and even the geometry of cities (living on the east side is nicer as you don't have the low sun in you face as you commute). Your income level dictates the street you live on. The street you live on not only states, but dictates your income level. Black people want to live in nice middle class areas away from the townships.

Racism was a cheap and simple tool for apartheid to tell who was poor.

I suspect the feminist debate is quite similar.

Note the concept of Androcracy in your link, where the theory is that "a few men have the power", rather than "men have the power" http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=3njlkp968j77g?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Androcracy&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc05a&linktext=andrarchy

fly_agaric

Victor wrote:

I've been thinking about this for a while, but haven't necessarily come to any decisions.

Over a drink with a South African friend I asked her a question on apartheid. Was apartheid about class or race? Her response was "class". South African society is dictated by where you live, what you drive, what school you go to and even the geometry of cities (living on the east side is nicer as you don't have the low sun in you face as you commute). Your income level dictates the street you live on. The street you live on not only states, but dictates your income level. Black people want to live in nice middle class areas away from the townships.

Racism was a cheap and simple tool for apartheid to tell who was poor.

I suspect the feminist debate is quite similar.

Note the concept of Androcracy in your link, where the theory is that "a few men have the power", rather than "men have the power" http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=3njlkp968j77g?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Androcracy&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc05a&linktext=andrarchy

Given the ratio of replies to views, I'll have to tell my árse not to post its crap on boards.ie again.

Interesting. So male/female is a crude, imprecise label that feminists use for who has the power and money in society, which is really the important thing, irrespective of what other ways we can be pidgeonholed?

IMO, there is another factor apart from greed and desire for power in the apartheid system - fear. The blacks heavily outnumber the whites, so "What might the blacks do to us if they take their rightful share of power in a proper democracy?" must have been a worry. The whites decided to prevent that happening by having a special class system to keep them "in their place".

I have read somewhere that this "fear of the blacks" was also important in S.A. getting rid of its nukes and destroying the research. They knew apartheid would fall apart eventually and were terrified of a majority rule government getting its hands on the A-bomb.

I made a mistake in my first post. Copping out by using technology to change our biology in fundamental ways so we can create a "feminist" utopia contradicts the assumption that the gender roles are mainly created by society.

OfflerCrocGod

fly_agaric wrote:

The kind of thing I'm wondering is what would the ideal society as planned by "feminists" from the ground up look like compared to the way things are now?

We would still be in caves for one Fire wouldn't have been invented or it wouldn't have been allowed because it's too violent

Dades

It seems a misnomer to say that apartheid was about class rather than race, when so often your class is determined by your race.
It suggests equal opportunities exist to being with.

I hope I don't get flamed but I'll dive in to keep this going.

Regarding the intial questions; what can be done to eliminate the effect of this patriarchy? Well firstly what are the effects of this patriarchy? That statistically men hold the most positions of power in politics and the workplace? Is it the perception that needs to be changed or the statistics?

Frankly I don't think there's much else to do. Workplace discrimination laws exist. Hard to prove, but no harder than any charge under law.

[In fact a girl I used to work with left the company and successfully sued them (settled) for constructive dismissal. She claimed that by not being offered a certain role she was dismissed - despite the fact that she could not have fulfilled that role due to a bad back and was completely unsuited anyway.]

Women will always be the ones who have to produce children. Therefore women of a certain age/marital status are automatically going to be considered a leave-risk. This is no-ones fault, and it's every family's right to take all the leave due under law.

But look back over the last century to see how much things have changed. Change don't come quickly through legislation it comes through common sense and the slow chipping away at traditionally held beliefs.

Western female society has all the information it needs through television, Internet etc. to make it's own opportunities - it's the cultures around the world going backwards in this area that have the real problems.

I'm not an expert just voicing some thoughts...

Annasopra

It's very interesting actually that the atheist mentioned cultures going backwards - because recently I came across a group called the National Mens Council of Ireland which would appear to want to abolish everything that feminism has achieved and return Ireland to DeValeras 1950s with a strict patriarchy (it is a horrid mysoginistic, homophobic, extreme right wing group)

http://www.family-men.com/ :mad:

I'm not an expert either and would consider myself a supporter of feminism (a feminist once told me however as a man that I cannot be a feminist)

just throwing some thoughts out

This was discussed on another discussion board and a lot of people seemed to think that if women got into positions of power they would assume characteristics associated with that role and that in fact the gender of a person would make no difference

Dades

Just on notion of societies where women's rights are declining - I think this is probably inaccurate. It's quite possible that thanks to the new age of information that such practises are coming to our attention. The rights are more likely static, and have been for centuries.

The National Mens Council of Ireland strike me a crowd of bitter misogynists.
Obviously there's organised women haters as well as "feminist" man-haters...

On the other hand there are some terrible anomalies in the family laws regarding custody. It's been highlighted in Britain by the fathers dressing up as superheroes and climbing national monuments.

Bob Geldof also spoke out against it when he lost all custody of his kids after his drug-addicted wife dumped him.

amp

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

We would still be in caves for one Fire wouldn't have been invented or it wouldn't have been allowed because it's too violent

This does not contribute to this debate. Make stupid quips again and you're banned.

fly_agaric

The Atheist wrote:

Women will always be the ones who have to produce children. Therefore women of a certain age/marital status are automatically going to be considered a leave-risk. This is no-ones fault, and it's every family's right to take all the leave due under law.

That was why I started thinking about technology (naughty ). With the rearing of children - perhaps men can take up some (more) of the slack than they have?

I suppose feminists would argue that work culture needs to change to allow women equal chance to get to the top levels despite this?
This would be unfair to those women who choose not to have children and dedicate themselves to their careers IMO.

Anyway, I think this idea is unrealistic for the highest level jobs in pretty much every field. Its very hard to get to these without sacrificing other aspects of your life - unless you are superman/woman.