Filtering traffic

mikemac

I recently bought a 04 scooter for driving an 8mile round trip to work in Dublin city centre.
Only been riding one week. Had one unfortunate accident so far. Lost control and damaged my paintwork. Fair play to the Audi driver behind me who picked me up off the road in Fairview.

Anyway, been getting loads of practice since. Still haven't figured out filtering. For instance, I was in the bus lane on the Malahide Road queing patiently on the first junction outside my estate. I saw a motorcycle filter down the right, another motorbike go down the centre between lanes and a girl on a scooter filter down the footpath which is out of order in my opinion.

I'm a very confident car driver (6 years experience), but feel like I'm starting from scratch again on two wheels.

Can you take lessons on scooters on dealing with heavy traffic or does any anyone have any good advice.

Get frustrated waiting at lights and seeing other motorcyclists (especially gardaí although I admire their skill) zipping in and out lanes.

Cake Fiend

http://www.irishridertraining.com/

Two wheels are far more dangerous than four, so you should definitely undertake some training, and filtering in particular is something that takes a lot of attention bearing in mind the habits of people to open car doors without checking for oncoming bikers. Scooter riders in particular seem to think they're different from other traffic, even other two-wheelers - evidenced for example by the muppet you saw driving on the footpath. You can be killed just as easily on a scooter as a motorbike. Good to see a scooter rider with sense!

tk123

Def get some lessons - I did mine with ISM and they were excellent!! Filtering is legal but it's dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. If other drivers see that you don't have confidence they won't take you seriously. I did my test last month and my instructor took the lead out to Churchtown - we we're filtering through traffic in town and it was GREAT!! I'd only be in town at weekends etc so it was was good expereince for me since he was commentating the whole time - there's a clear path down the left etc etc..

Tomohawk

I only filter if I know the traffic aint gonna move. There's no worse position for me to be in than if I'm going up the right hand side of a line of stationary cars to get to the traffic lights on red in order to get pole position, and then to have the lights change to green just as I'm 2 cars lengths away from top of the queue. Filtering up the left hand side can be worse as you can get squeezed out of it going ahead over the juntion with a car or 2 ahead of you and cars behind and you have to get back into traffic on the right. So I will sit back and NOT filter if I dont think I can get to pole position safetly with enough time to spare. Hey whats my hurry, I'm on a motorbike and can choose to filter anytime, unlike cars!!

I've driven a car for 7 years and find that as a bike driver for the last 2 years, I've learn the sequences and timings(!!) of a lot of traffic junctions in Dublin city and county. This really helps when deciding whether or not to filter.

Etiquette I observe at the pole position at a red light is as follows: Always let a bigger cc bike away first and then in pecking order of cc machine. Let couriers and guarda bikes ie. commercial bikes out first too (if they want to). Stay away from cyclists - they are hazards. Ignore idiots on fast mopeds with no gloves/ illegal pillions/ inappropiate footgear/ inappropiate protection clothing/ openface helmets. They dont take their biking seriously and can be considered a hazard. Avoid and let them tearaway ahead of you if they want to - its their funerals!!

ps. Chat to your fellow bikers at the lights if you/they want to! I always give the nod to a motorcyclist on the same model of bike I drive. ie classic vespa. Even if I dont know them...

murphaph

Yeah I'm the same-having driven a car for years I'm quite patient enought to sit in a traffic queue if I don't believe I can make it with a high degree of safety to the head of the queue. What's the rush?

Is it legal to filter on the nearside of the road?

Horatio

No matter what filtering is always dangerous, no matter how good you are there is always the muppet element there to take you out i.e. the suddenly open car door or even the rubbish thrown out the open window. I do must of my biking down in the southeast but was recently up in Dublin and I have to say its far more dangerous to be a biker in the capital than anywhere else. People just don't give a damm. In the short space of an hour I had more people run red lights, go through boxs and junctions, change lanes suddenly with no indication or move over to block your passage on purpose. I don't know how anyone does it on a daily basis

mickydoomsux

Don't bother filtering.

It's not illegal, but insurance companies will always deem you to be in the wrong if something happens whilst you are doing it.

Plus, most car drivers have no idea how to deal with someone who is filtering by them.

It's not worth the hassle.

mikemac

When I was out in traffic, it just seemed to me that I was the only one on two wheels not filtering.

Was amazed at the unbelievable moves some motorcyclists were taking, zigzagging between lanes to get to the top of the queue.

To be honest, the young lads on scooters were worse. I pity the poor cyclists who get squeezed to the footpath as they fly down the cycle lane.

Got knocked off my bicycle back in college when a women opened her car door on me as I was overtaking. Said she never saw me though it was a straight road and a sunny, clear day.That was a nasty accident so kinda paranoid about the the whole filtering issue.

Will be taking it easy for the next few weeks until I get a bit more confidence. Considering I walked 4.5km to work and back all summer, I'm never in a rush anyway cos I still leave my house on the scooter every morning an hour and a half early for work. Still stuck in that routine

Crapbag

Heres some of my expirience with filtering. I have been travelling through dubiln city centre almost everyday for 6 years. I have filtered on everyone of those occations. Some rules i learnt myself and got through ISM training

1. Expirience is your best ally

2. It is not illegal to filter as its been mentioned but dont filter on the left near the curb!

3. Filtering speed is the main concern, drive slowly in relation to your proximity to cars you filter by. Dont run the gauntlet!

4. Anticipate what the drive of cars might do i.e open door, suddenly dart to change lane, flick cigarette butts out the window at you

5. for filtering purposes, assume that everyone is an idiot (just for your own sake) expect people to do stupid things, it heightens your own alertness

6. Use close control method when filtering so you are equally attentive of all controls.

7. Do not filter on a green light, if you do (which we all have) stop in an unobstructing lane (the gap could be tiny) and proceed with traffic.

8. Take note of where people are in the cars you pass, with expirience it will become easy. Rear passengers are more likely to open the door without looking as they have no mirrors

9. Be mindful of your balance, do not move too fast or too slow.

10. Dont necessarily follow another rider down the filter path. He/She could make the wrong chouce but more importantly, a window open for them will not necessarily stay open for you.

These are just some things ive learned. Cant remember most (first is the most important) If there are more expirienced riders who disagree and want to comment feel free, it will improve all of our expirience

a_ominous

About the only thing your experience in a car is good for is knowing the rules of the road and as you say, timing of the lights. A PTW (powered two wheeler) handles completely differntly to a car. You lean into corners, you should use both brakes to stop. You don't use your brakes when cornering (liable to upset momentum and fall).

I wouldn't worry about not filtering. You've only been on the scooter for a week. Get out on it outside of your commute to learn a bit more. Do get lessons, but you could wait until you feel you have the basics. The lessons will help you avoid falling into bad habits. Filtering is the single biggest advantage to a PTW in urban traffic. If you don't do it, get back into your car. But only when you feel confident about it.

As you may have noticed over the past week, white lines, cats' eyes are slippery as snot on a wet day. Filtering may have to be avoided in some of these cases.

Footpaths and cycle lanes are off limits. You might get away in a cycle path in some parts, but expect the cyclist to get miffed.

Welcome to the dark side

seamus

All good advice above. As a_ominous says, give yourself some more time. Filtering is easily the most stressful and concentration-requiring part of biking. Some general rules I live by:

1. If you have a choice between filtering or taking the bus lane, take the bus lane. I would rather risk getting caught and fined for driving in the bus lane than risk getting knocked off while filtering.

2. In general, you shouldn't need to filter in moving city-centre traffic. Traffic tends to either move swiftly or not move. Outside of the city, traffic in queues (e.g. on a dual carraigeway) will always be moving to some degree. Personally I maintain a speed no more than 15kph-20kph more than the traffic around me, and move back into the traffic if it's speed goes above ~30kph.

3. When* you find yourself filtering and a bigger bike waiting impatiently behind you, don't be pressurised. The last thing you need is a break in concentration. If you're going to be filtering for a good while, then consider moving back into the traffic (indicate in plenty of time so the bike behind you knows what you're doing) at a safe point. If you're continually filtering, but the traffic is broken into sections by lights (the canal is a good example of this), then move over to the left at the lights to allow the bigger bike to move off first.

4. Make a note of what the traffic around you will do. For example, if there's a right filter light that will go green before the full green, position yourself so that you can filter up to the top using the now-empty right-turn lane.

*It's not a case of if

Canaboid

mickydoomsux wrote:

"Don't bother filtering.

It's not illegal, but insurance companies will always deem you to be in the wrong if something happens whilst you are doing it."

This is incorrect. What are you basing this on ?
18months ago I was filtering on the right hand side coming up the canal to Rathmines Bridge. Motorist pulling out onto road, nudges out looks to his left but not to his right and pulls out knocking me off. I had slowed to about 15mph at impact so banged up bike and knee but no serious injury. Cop said it was his fault and his insurance paid without argument.

sutty

All good advice in what is being said. I'd lissen most to what seamus has said.

As for Insurance, as far as I remember AON will not cover you if you crash while filtering while under fully comp insuance. If the person admited liabilty then I guess his insurance would have to pay.

filtering comes with experience, dont try to do it if you dont feel up to. You need to be on your toes and with both brakes ready to stop you ASAP.
Giving way to larger bikes while doing it is not required but it is good biking sence. Seeing as they will be taking off faster than you

But if I where you I'd not try it for the first few weeks of riding, till you get used to the size of your scouter

echomadman

mickydoomsux wrote:

Don't bother filtering.

It's not illegal, but insurance companies will always deem you to be in the wrong if something happens whilst you are doing it.

Plus, most car drivers have no idea how to deal with someone who is filtering by them.

It's not worth the hassle.

Why bother commuting on a bike then? better off in out of the elements in a car if you're not going to take advantage of the smaller size and manueverability of your bike.

everyone else has give all the advice you need regarding safe filtering, take your time and work up to it, just remember that your scooter isnt as fast as bigger bikes and you wont get away with some of the manuevers you see them pulling off, dont be tempted to follow a kamakazie pilot through moving traffic, lots of crashes happen when filtering/overtaking en masse and the rider behind follows the leader through a gap thats clossing up and they run out of places to go.

mickydoomsux

echomadman wrote:

Why bother commuting on a bike then?

Because bike are cheaper to insure and run?
Because you might actually enjoy riding a motorbike?

I only advise not to bother filtering because of the ignorance of car drivers and because it is somewhat of a gray area with regard to insurance claims.

If you could be sure that no-one was going to open a car door in front of you or pull across you at a junction then it'd be fine but the majority of people in Ireland just don't see motorcyclists on the road as shown by the the fact that 8 out of 10 motorcycle accidents involve a car.

art

Re insurance: my recollection is "Filtering" is simply a form of over-taking and liable to the same rules - hence filtering across an unbroken white line may catch you out and likewise filtering on the left side of a lane, but otherwise you are perfectly entitled to filter and any accident occuring whilst legitimately filtering, assuming its the other drivers fault, will be considered his fault by the insurance company too.

I think the worst part of filtering is having another bike up your ass Even though I'm riding years and on a big bike, its nearly always when I see a bike flicking in and out of my mirrors as I filter that I go do something I realise later was a bit stupid :rolleyes: (eg go too fast or too reckless).

Generally, though, I flick between looking at front wheel position to shoulders of drivers, as I filter, to catch sudden movements before they happen, to looking ahead at the traffic pattern etc; always slow right down when there's a van or truck blocking your view into the lane so nothing/nobody unexpectedly emerges; and when I'm tired or a bit stressed, just not filter at all. Take it easy and get there safe!

Chipboard

One huge benefit of filtering and the reason I will always do it even if they made it illegal is that if you sit at the back of a line of traffic, it is very easy for a car which doesn't brake in time for the lights or has bad tyres to slide up your ass and if it happens at speed the biker will almost certainly be badly hurt. I have been rear ended twice like this in my car but never TG on the bike although a friend of mine was fairly badly hurt this way in Lucan a few years ago. For this reason I always filter up atleast past the first car - your far safer when your stopped amongst traffic or on front of it compared to being vunerable at the back.

art

Chipboard wrote:

One huge benefit of filtering and the reason I will always do it even if they made it illegal is that if you sit at the back of a line of traffic, it is very easy for a car which doesn't brake in time for the lights or has bad tyres to slide up your ass and if it happens at speed the biker will almost certainly be badly hurt. I have been rear ended twice like this in my car but never TG on the bike although a friend of mine was fairly badly hurt this way in Lucan a few years ago. For this reason I always filter up atleast past the first car - your far safer when your stopped amongst traffic or on front of it compared to being vunerable at the back.

One of the funniest things I saw as a biker was on Dorset Street, I was in left lane and there was a bike cop in the right lane. Car came from behind me, turned into the right lane and rear-ended the copper, just knocking him a foot forward or so but not really causing damage. What was funny was just how long it took the copper to put the side stand down, take off his gloves, rummage for his pencil, find his notebook... he made a big production of the whole thing while yer man in the car was all in a sweat

But I agree, being rear-ended on a bike can cause a lot more injury than in a car so best to protect yourself just in case.

causal

micmclo wrote:

Can you take lessons on scooters on dealing with heavy traffic or does any anyone have any good advice.

wrt training - follow the IRTA link.

Here's some of my own filtering findings:
Whether filtering or any other manouevre - only do what you are comfortable doing.
As a scooterist/mopeder you'll get even less respect than bikers get - from certain types of driver.
If you're filtering between 2 lanes of traffic moving in the same direction and there is a car on one side and a space beside him - watch out for that making a sudden lane change.
If you're filtering between 2 lanes of traffic moving in the same direction and there is a car on both sides - watch out for the space between them narrowing.
A cars lane position (nearside, center, offside) is often a good indicator of their next intended change in direction.
If you see a gap between vehicles and you can't see into the gap clearly - back off it's often a driver letting someone you can't see yet in/out.
Don't filter at a junction. *cough*
When you do filter at a junction be careful not just at the junction but also on the approach as you'll sometimes get a car that is 5 or 6 cars back from the actual junction pulling out and rushing up the wrong side of the road to make a turn.
Never trust anyones indicators.
Never trust anyones non use of indicators.
Don't filter in a cycle lane. *cough*
When you do use a cycle lane - always give way to the cyclists - never be close behind them or pressure them, nor should you hold a fast cyclist up. Don't overtake the cyclist unless you can move well clear of the cyclist i.e. back onto the proper lane.
Don't filter in a bus lane. *cough*
When you do use a bus lane - generally try to stay in the center of the lane where you have better visibility (& conspicuity) and room for manouevre - don't ride on the offside close to the cars (= danger) in the mislead belief that a Garda would be more likely to ignore you if you're "in close to the cars".

hth,
causal

causal

mickydoomsux wrote:

Don't bother filtering.
...
It's not worth the hassle.

It is if you've an 8 mile journey through gridlock. Filtering = 30 minutes, not filtering = 90 minutes. That's 10 hours per week, every week of your working life - all thanks to filtering.

It's not illegal, but insurance companies will always deem you to be in the wrong if something happens whilst you are doing it.
<and then later you backtrack slightly and say>
it is somewhat of a gray area with regard to insurance claims.

There's nothing gray about it. As was said earlier filtering is a form of overtaking - so the same rules apply. And other drivers should pay particaular attention to their obligations when making a turn (ROTR pp 27,28):

Turning Right
Check well in advance for traffic following behind. If the way is clear, give a right turn signal, and as soon as you can do so safely ,...

Turning Left
Check for following traffic well in advance. Give a left turn signal and slow down. Watch particularly for cyclists and motorcyclists coming up on your left. ...

Plus, most car drivers have no idea how to deal with someone who is filtering by them.

Most of them are in a gridlock induced mental stasis. tbh it's not surprising that most car drivers just switch off. If they all bought motorbikes then we'd all be a lot safer and have much more free time to enjoy life

causal

tk123

causal wrote:

If they all bought motorbikes then we'd all be a lot safer and have much more free time to enjoy life

causal

davidoco

a lot of you guys would enjoy a visit to Shanghai in China where they have bike (powered and pedal) only streets. With this of course bikes are banned off certain busy thoroughfares. At busy times they have a sort of system whereby the faster risk takers come to the front at the lights. There will be 300 bikes of all kinds in a stretch going through the lights and all going at different speeds – CRAZY but they never seem to knock each other. I’m sure hundreds are killed each year. One thing for sure you won’t get pedestrians trying to cross in between them.

a_ominous

davidoco wrote:

a lot of you guys would enjoy a visit to Shanghai in China where they have bike (powered and pedal) only streets. With this of course bikes are banned off certain busy thoroughfares. At busy times they have a sort of system whereby the faster risk takers come to the front at the lights. There will be 300 bikes of all kinds in a stretch going through the lights and all going at different speeds – CRAZY but they never seem to knock each other. I’m sure hundreds are killed each year. One thing for sure you won’t get pedestrians trying to cross in between them.

Anything like this?

tk123

holy crap! :eek: :eek: :eek:

ridertraining

a_ominous wrote:

I wouldn't worry about not filtering. You've only been on the scooter for a week. Get out on it outside of your commute to learn a bit more. Do get lessons, but you could wait until you feel you have the basics. The lessons will help you avoid falling into bad habits.

I'd say get the lessons first. You'll learn the basics faster, and start your riding career with good habits; the first thing you learn could be the thing that saves your life.
Get used to the bike before you start duelling with busy traffic - if you get it wrong, who will get hurt?

http://www.garda.ie/angarda/statistics98/nroadstats.html