God but not as we want to see it

DJDC

Does anyone else have a similar opinion to me on this.i cant(i have tried but it just doesnt make sense) believe in most peoples opinion of god as this great being who looks over us all and loves us all deeply.praying to god,going to church and using a book(bible,koran etc) as a rulebook seems to me nonsense.
so i should be an atheist then but that seems nonsensical too.after lookin at the big bang closely i realised even scientists energy was required at the very beginning.what created this energy?and so the dilemma.
does anyone share my opinion that there was a creative force but we are nothing special to it.it might not even know about us.this may seem ridiculous but it makes more sense to me than all that messiah bollix.

Dades

DJDC,

You sir, are an agnostic.

Answers to the questions you ask can only be found in Religion.
The wrong answers perhaps, but sometimes people just want an answer regardless.

I can live without answers.

sirgamblelot

i share your beliefs.i have had nothing to prove to me that there is someone up there looking down on us and watching out for us.i need what Dan Brown calls "Devine Intervention" and until i get this i regard my self as an athiest.

Sifo

The Atheist wrote:

DJDC,

You sir, are an agnostic.

Answers to the questions you ask can only be found in Religion.
The wrong answers perhaps, but sometimes people just want an answer regardless.

I can live without answers.

good for you... perhaps the wrong answers perhaps the right answers, you can choose to live without these answers right or wrong.. Which brings the question what if your right? congrats, but what if your wrong?

The Bollox

DJDC wrote:

Does anyone else have a similar opinion to me on this.i cant(i have tried but it just doesnt make sense) believe in most peoples opinion of god as this great being who looks over us all and loves us all deeply.praying to god,going to church and using a book(bible,koran etc) as a rulebook seems to me nonsense.
so i should be an atheist then but that seems nonsensical too.after lookin at the big bang closely i realised even scientists energy was required at the very beginning.what created this energy?and so the dilemma.
does anyone share my opinion that there was a creative force but we are nothing special to it.it might not even know about us.this may seem ridiculous but it makes more sense to me than all that messiah bollix.

that's just one of those mind-boggling things. another of my 'favourites' is wondering if ppl who are blind from birth even see black, or any colour for that matter. I mean to us black is when our eyes try to work without light eg. when our lids are covering them or if your head is under the duvet at night. the conclusion I cme to is that they see with their minds eyes, that their other 4 sences give them a vague image of what is infront of them. but how will I ever know?

Dades

Sifo wrote:

Which brings the question what if your right? congrats, but what if your wrong?

Respectfully, the question is irrelevant.

You do not arrive at a belief by taking into account what happens if your belief is incorrect.
Not a true belief at any rate.

It's not an unusual question however.

I guess a deceased correct atheist is, well, dead.
And a deceased incorrect one is very, very surprised.

jimbling

The Atheist wrote:

I can live without answers.

Is that not what an agnostic is? surely, for an Atheist, there is no answers to be living without.. am I wrong in this?

It is a pretty fine line between Atheist and Agnostic, but from your posts I would have come to the conclusion that you were an Agnostic.

I am not preaching, and in fact I know very little about either. I read a small bit about Agnostic a while back, and have been going around saying I may be one, but I am not really sure about it. Maybe like most of these things.. once you get into it you realise its just the same as any other cult (meaning ALL religions)

I think I beleive in jimmyism.... i am therefore a jimmyist.



And just to comment on the original post. Like said, there are a large number of people that think like you. There are a vast amount of books on the area - a lot trying to say different things but all having the same core meaning.

In fact, I would say that the whole new movement is based on this. It varys along the way, but they are all looking for something, outside of the religious preaching, that can guide them in life.

just look at the popularity of the books... things like the Alchemist, Celestine Prophecy, Awareness.... etc etc....

Dades

jimbling wrote:

Is that not what an agnostic is? surely, for an Atheist, there is no answers to be living without.. am I wrong in this?

It is a pretty fine line between Atheist and Agnostic, but from your posts I would have come to the conclusion that you were an Agnostic.

It is indeed a fine line. There have been huge threads about the topic in this very forum involving far more educated people than me which strangely have disappeared.

My response to your points however is that there are always questions. No person of any ethos can deny that the question exists "where did we come from?" Therefore in theory there must be an answer.

In my head at least the difference is that an agnostic claims it is impossible to know if there is a god, whereas an atheist flatly disbelieves in the existence of one.

That said there are numerous sub-catagories of each which I would not dare to try and explain.

From what I've experienced the main point of contention is in the definition of "god". Problems always arise when people make up their own definitions of god - which then throws any classification out the window.

Sleepy

As I'd see it, an Atheist holds the belief that there is no god or deity.

An agnostic, while not believing in any of the deities we've been presented with by the many various religions, does not discount the possibility that there could be, or at some stage could have been, a deity of some form.

Son Goku

after lookin at the big bang closely i realised even scientists energy was required at the very beginning.what created this energy?and so the dilemma.

Offtopic: Sorry, I know this has nothing to do with this but that's a flawed view of what the Big Bang is. Energy wasn't required for the Big Bang, nor was it a beggining in any proper context.

jimbling

okay... i have read up a bit about each... and to me it looks to be a bit of a muddle.... the line is far finer than I had thought.


and depending on my mood, and how people are defining GOD, I could be either or neither.

Plankmonkey

DJDC wrote:

after lookin at the big bang closely i realised even scientists energy was required at the very beginning.what created this energy?and so the dilemma..

Who says someone or something created it? Maybe it just alway was. And if it was created then who created the creator....oh yeah sorry the creator just always was :rolleyes:

don't you think religious people are very arrogant to think that they have it all sussed?

Dades

Plankmonkey wrote:

don't you think religious people are very arrogant to think that they have it all sussed?

Interestingly, accusations of arrogance are frequently leveled at atheists.
To my bemusement I've had it myself in this very forum.

A conviction of that belief and a willingness to debate it sometimes generates that response.

nobodythere

Good sir, if you would care to step farther outside the box, where did the energy that the creative force has come from?

Tee hee, that's what I always hit the Jehovas with when they say that a God must exist because all this can't have come from nowhere. Then I ask them where did God come from. They say he just exists and always has. So I ask them why we can't "just exist" and they're stumped.

KnifeWRENCH

okay...i have very little education on this subject and i might be really ignorant,but im interested in these kinda things.

i do believe that somewhere,there has to be a god.he might not be that nice big old fella up in the sky,but he (or she) IS there somewhere.mainyly i feel like this because it scares me to think that when i die,THATS IT.im gone.no afterlife.
i never discredit others beliefs.i believe in god,but dont live my life by the bible.and have broken at least 5 of the 7 deadly sins.for me to say to an athiest,or even an agnostic "YOUR WRONG.SO SHUT IT" would be unacceptable.what proof do i have that God exists?absolutely nothing.but i just believe it.Why?i dont know.i cant say.my brain just tells me so.....i may question my beliefs at times,but i never change them.whats the point in believeing in anything if your constantly changing them?coz of what the jehovahs witnesses,the athiests or the Church is saying???

anyway,thats a bit off point,so back to the original point:if a creative force is present,and we're nothing special,logically it doesnt click with me why we would have been created?surely a creative force would want us to be special.then again,with all the s**t happening in this world,you could be right.i know nothing about the big bang and i wont pretend to....so ill finish off here.sorry if all this was of no interest or completely off point.i just wanted to add my humble views

Dades

square_igloo wrote:

mainyly i feel like this because it scares me to think that when i die,THATS IT.im gone.no afterlife.

I wish there was an afterlife too.

square_igloo wrote:

i may question my beliefs at times,but i never change them.whats the point in believeing in anything if your constantly changing them?coz of what the jehovahs witnesses,the athiests or the Church is saying???

The main thing is to keep an open mind. You don't have to change you mind every time a smooth talker makes you curious. But if you find actual reasons [read: evidence] to believe something then you shouldn't ignore it.

OrlaOrla

I believe that there has to be some higher being because without it how would we all be here.The problem is why are we all here and why is there a higher being!? its like a circle,it has no beginning and no end,but I just dont see the point of the circle!i hope there is an afterlife cos what scares me the most about dying is being alone even though technically if we're stone cold dead and if we dont have souls we wouldnt know about it! i guess the problem with religion is it seems like a blind faith when in essence we shouldnt need a crutch to lean on to get through life if we're afraid of dying as were hardly going to kill ourselves because we cant cope,that would be ironic wouldnt it!?I havent made up my mind yet about my stance on religion as im confused as u can tell but its great reading all the various opinions because they might help me shape my own and stop being so damn confused!

bonkey

OrlaOrla wrote:

I believe that there has to be some higher being because without it how would we all be here.T

Actually, that just begs the question of how the higher being is there. To me, such reasoning has always smacked of just putting a buffer that we cannot properly explain in place of a question we cannot answer. Unfortunately, the question doesn't go away....but we feel happier assigning "mystical" properties to this buffer and deciding the question doesn't apply any more.

The way I look at it is that concepts implicitly linked to time (e.g. "what came before us/the universe") cease to have significance once you reach the start of time. So where did time come from? If we want to suggest that some creator brought it about, this suggests that there is still time present, so we're not back at the start. Even if we suggest that its just something we don't properly understand, surely thats nothing but an admission that we're insisting the inexplicable must have a cause, and that cause is also inexplicable? How does that hold? How can we be happy with one inexplicable as the only "answer" we can find to explain something.

he problem is why are we all here

I prefer to see it as an opportunity, not a problem

its like a circle,it has no beginning and no end,but I just dont see the point of the circle!

Well put! Even if we use the notion of a creator as our "why", we still should be asking the "why"s of the creator. We're back where we started.

i guess the problem with religion is it seems like a blind faith

No matter what you believe - faith, religion, atheism, that we can never really know - it's still just blind faith. Ultimately, its coming to terms with how you understand things to be - how you choose the question of "why". No path is truly less blind than any other in this respect.

help me shape my own and stop being so damn confused!

I see my confusion as an opportunity too. I find it easier that way

jc

MrJoeSoap

grasshopa wrote:

Tee hee, that's what I always hit the Jehovas with when they say that a God must exist because all this can't have come from nowhere. Then I ask them where did God come from. They say he just exists and always has. So I ask them why we can't "just exist" and they're stumped.

I'm writing that one down!

homeostatic

I wouldn't start writing just so quickly Soap. Grasshopper failed to define "exist." Does he exist just because he says he does? Ho do either of you define your existance. If you can't define your own existance, then how can you say something does or doesn't exist in comparison.

hawkmoon269

The Atheist wrote:

DJDC,

You sir, are an agnostic.

Answers to the questions you ask can only be found in Religion.
The wrong answers perhaps, but sometimes people just want an answer regardless.

I can live without answers.

I am not necessarily convinced that 'agnostic' is the best description for the opening poster's beliefs. If I have interpreted him correctly, he appears to be a Deist - one who believes that the Universe probably was created by some force or God, but that this force or God did not intervene after the creation event and thus is more or less irrelevant to our day to day lives.

hawkmoon269

Sifo wrote:

good for you... perhaps the wrong answers perhaps the right answers, you can choose to live without these answers right or wrong.. Which brings the question what if your right? congrats, but what if your wrong?

Pascal's Wager.

No offense, but it was unconvincing when he first proposed it, and is still unconvincing today.

Dades

hawkmoon269 wrote:

I am not necessarily convinced that 'agnostic' is the best description for the opening poster's beliefs. If I have interpreted him correctly, he appears to be a Deist - one who believes that the Universe probably was created by some force or God, but that this force or God did not intervene after the creation event and thus is more or less irrelevant to our day to day lives.

Personally the idea of a "creator" that created us but no longer interferes in our business or watches over us does not fall within my definition of a "god" for the purposes of religious pigeonholing. To be a god should require some level of continued participation, however small.

The whole concept of God=nature smacks of reaching to me. Just because we can't define what god is doesn't mean we have to apply the notion to something we already have a word for.

muesli_offire

I don't believe in an interventionist god.
But I know darlin' ...
that there are those who hold that there is the distinct possibility of an accomodationist deity.

Dave3x

Hey, I've just joined this forum...

Intersting. I'm a first year philosophy student in Trinity, and we've just finished Philosophy of religion.

The original question of a non-interventionist god rings a bell with me from Aristotle- he believed that the being called 'God' was a perfect being, whose thoughts created everything else. But, being perfect, eveything else pales by comparison, and so our god spends all eternity contemplating his own perfection. He may not even be aware of the existence of anything else. Not sure if I buy that, but it's a cool little thought....

And as for the debate on time pre-existing the universe, is it not possible that a being can exist outside time? It would seem that, in order to create a universe of space and time, some force would have to capable of existing without either space *or* time, i.e., in order to create them. And since time and space are intertwined(getting into very Hawkings-esque territory!), this force, if it existed before space, would likely exist before time as well.

All of which to me would suggest that empirical scientific tests break down at this point- you can't measure results when there's no such thing as numbers- and rationalism, reasoning of the mind, has to take over. Something which many people are unhappy about- the less scientific people can keep going and 'make up' explanations, when Science fails.

Anyone want to point out some major flaws in what I've just said? (I'm a first year, I don't actually know what I'm talking about yet!)

Son Goku

Dave3x wrote:

It would seem that, in order to create a universe of space and time, some force would have to capable of existing without either space *or* time, i.e., in order to create them. And since time and space are intertwined(getting into very Hawkings-esque territory!), this force, if it existed before space, would likely exist before time as well.

All of which to me would suggest that empirical scientific tests break down at this point- you can't measure results when there's no such thing as numbers- and rationalism, reasoning of the mind, has to take over. Something which many people are unhappy about- the less scientific people can keep going and 'make up' explanations, when Science fails.

The one thing might be that certain things might not need to be created.
Creation may only apply to objects within spacetime, not to spacetime itself.

homeostatic

The Atheist wrote:

Personally the idea of a "creator" that created us but no longer interferes in our business or watches over us does not fall within my definition of a "god" for the purposes of religious pigeonholing. To be a god should require some level of continued participation, however small.

The whole concept of God=nature smacks of reaching to me. Just because we can't define what god is doesn't mean we have to apply the notion to something we already have a word for.

Atheist, it seems as though your entire contemplation of God is rather egocentric. You seem to be suggesting that People who believe in God do so because of a need for answers, and you in contrast do not need answers; therefore, you do not need God.

I also sense in your remarks that you feel that you can only obtain knowledge by those things which you personally can perceive. You seem to be suggesting that God is a product of one’s own contemplation and not an entity that exists despite perception; that it is our perception that created God, rather than His that created us.

I would like to provide a few counter arguments to some of your stances, but I want to make sure I'm clear as to what they are.

muesli_offire

You seem to be suggesting ... that it is our perception that created God, rather than His that created us.

or that the possibility of a mutuality of said alternatives is out of the question.

bonkey

Dave3x wrote:

And as for the debate on time pre-existing the universe, is it not possible that a being can exist outside time?

It depends what you mean by exist, I guess.

Sure, you can hypothesise about higher dimensions (y'know, bit like you see in the ending of Men in Black), but we simply have no framework in which to work with, bar the hypothetical, where you can pretty much decide anything you want.

All of the terminology we use - creation, existance and so forth, all require a timeframe. Before there was nothing, and then there was. See? We're already structuring events into a logical sequence of when they occurred. A timeline! And we're supposed to talking about before time?!?

All of which to me would suggest that empirical scientific tests break down at this point

They do indeed.

you can't measure results when there's no such thing as numbers

No such thing as tests either.

and rationalism, reasoning of the mind, has to take over.

To form a conjecture? And then to apply reasoning to understand it? But within what framework? All of our frameworks are based on stuff we know - stuff thats inside. Reasoning thats just as incapable of being applied to the unkwown outside as science, without assuming that the outside is, in some way, like the inside. And if it is, then whats outsi....no...stop...infinities drive me nuts.

Something which many people are unhappy about- the less scientific people can keep going and 'make up' explanations, when Science fails.

I don't know that science fails. Science offers the best answer it has got : we do not know at this point, and may never know.

After that, its all about what you believe. There's no proving it one way or another at this point in time, and if we ever do...well...the question will just change in nature and we'll ask it again in a bigger framework.

jc

DJDC

After drinking a large intoxicating amount of alcohol and having a great time in the last couple of days(5 parties in a row),i have realised these things arent ameant to be thought bout.They are so incomphresible,that no one can ever give a logical answer.
So we shud get on with our lives and stop worrying bout such out of reach thoughts.Get out there and have fun!

Dades

Sorry homeostatic, have been away since Thursday.
Will have to be brief - am up to my neck...

homeostatic wrote:

You seem to be suggesting that People who believe in God do so because of a need for answers

I don't recall suggesting that, but I'd probably agree with myself if I did that it is frequently, though not always, the case.

you in contrast do not need answers; therefore, you do not need God.

What I need is irrelevant to my belief. It should also be irrelevant to any belief - but I maintain this is usually not the case.

I also sense in your remarks that you feel that you can only obtain knowledge by those things which you personally can perceive.

True, I don't perceive conjecture or wishful thinking to be "knowledge". And if one cannot perceive something how it is anything else?

You seem to be suggesting that God is a product of one’s own contemplation and not an entity that exists despite perception; that it is our perception that created God, rather than His that created us.

I don't know what exists outside of our perception but I believe any "god" that has been given characteristics by man has been created by man.

P.S. You seem to have an interest so don't forget to support the forum in my sig.