Gas to go up 25%, electricity 4%

Hobbes

From next month afaik.

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=155345416&p=y55346yzz

Looks like I'll have to make a phone call to my local td instead of emails.

Nuttzz

other than approve price increases what do these regulator do?

netwhizkid

Another reason for a change of government. What does they do ? they allow shell and statoil and enterprise oil to Exploit our natural resources off the corrib gas field, they come along and jail our citizens with Bertie's approval. The old head of kinsale gas field is almost dry. Irish citizen will be forced to pay these Private companies for our own gas. By 2010 80% of Ireland's Electricity will be generated from imported gas which flows through only one pipeline the Scottish inter-connector which also feeds the isle of man. Al Qaeda are you watching ?? Ireland will be 80% dependant on foreign gas flowing through only one pipeline. I hope ye have the candles ready for when something goes wrong. The ESRI recently recommended a second pieline be built. The ESB are not allowed to build new power plants under harney and the EU for "competition reasons" It is time Ireland withdrew from the EU and indite Mary harney for high treason. We as a nation are being ripped of mainly because of the PDs right wing capitalist rhetoric that is strangling what was a citizen friendly Fianna Fail party.

bonkey

netwhizkid wrote:

Another reason for a change of government.

I disagree. I think its a sensible move - arguably the best option in the current market.

they allow shell and statoil and enterprise oil to Exploit our natural resources off the corrib gas field,

You do realise that one of the biggest issues with oil and gas "exploitation" is that expertise is very, very limited. Can you show that it would have been cost-effective to develop our own indigenous gas-exploitation industry from scratch? Because if not, then we had exactly two choices - strike a deal with externals like Shell or Statoil, or leave the gas where it was in the ground and gain no benefit from it whatsoever.

You can argue that we may not have struck the best deal possible, but that would require a lot of information that I haven't seen here yet - such as what types of deals have been struck in other places for other gas fields of comparable size and extraction-difficulty.

they come along and jail our citizens with Bertie's approval.

They didn't jail anyone. People were jailed for acting in contempt of court. The difference is not irrelevant, unless objectivity and accuracy don't matter to you.

The old head of kinsale gas field is almost dry. Irish citizen will be forced to pay these Private companies for our own gas.

Isnt Kinsale run and managed by a private company as well?

By 2010 80% of Ireland's Electricity will be generated from imported gas

Cleaner than coal, and more affordable than oil - both of which are staples of our current production. So which is it you'd prefer? Dirtier production, or more expensive?

Or do you have some notion that its actually possible to move off hydrocarbons in the next 5 years?

Al Qaeda are you watching ??

lol.

(I actually can't think of a better response to this comment.)

The ESB are not allowed to build new power plants under harney and the EU for "competition reasons"

You can put it in quote marks all you like, but that doesn't make it any less valid a reason unless you can show that gas importation would benefit from being a monopoly.

It is time Ireland withdrew from the EU and indite Mary harney for high treason.

I think you've lost the plot with your argument now,$ so I'll stop here.

jc

cal29

bonkey wrote:

I disagree. I think its a sensible move - arguably the best option in the current market.

I disagree the sooner the PDs are removed from Government the better

bonkey wrote:

You do realise that one of the biggest issues with oil and gas "exploitation" is that expertise is very, very limited. Can you show that it would have been cost-effective to develop our own indigenous gas-exploitation industry from scratch? Because if not, then we had exactly two choices - strike a deal with externals like Shell or Statoil, or leave the gas where it was in the ground and gain no benefit from it whatsoever.

Considering that one of the companies is a State owned company from Norway it is not beyond the wit of Irish people to have their own State Owned company to exploit our own natural resources
What benefit will the Irish People gain from the exploitation of the Gas at the Corrib Field we will pay full market price so we may as well be buying it from Scotland or outer Mongolia

bonkey wrote:

You can argue that we may not have struck the best deal possible, but that would require a lot of information that I haven't seen here yet - such as what types of deals have been struck in other places for other gas fields of comparable size and extraction-difficulty.

We have not struck any Deal we have given it away A deal would suggest that their was something in it for the Irish people like cheaper gas etc

bonkey wrote:

They didn't jail anyone. People were jailed for acting in contempt of court. The difference is not irrelevant, unless objectivity and accuracy don't matter to you.

Our Government has colluded with these foreign companies to imprison Irish men and deliberately not Irish women as that could be bad PR for peaceful protest against the compulsary purchase of their lands for the laying of a gas pipe which experts have claimed maybe dangerous. Lets not forget that the reason for this pipeline is to increase the profits for these companies the refining could be done at sea but that would be less profitable.

Lets also remember that these men were protesting against work being carried out that it now transpires the companies had no right to be carrying out

bonkey wrote:

You can put it in quote marks all you like, but that doesn't make it any less valid a reason unless you can show that gas importation would benefit from being a monopoly.

I think you missed the point our ecomomy has grown astronomically in the last ten years but we have prevented the ESB from planning for and providing for the increased demand it has nothing to do with wether our gas importation is a monopoly or not

We also have the ridicolous situation where the price of electricity has been driven up in order to facilitate competition
The ESB were not ripping the Irish public off so the government forced the price of electricity up so their would be a margin for resellers
woohoo for competition

Mucco

cal29 wrote:

Considering that one of the companies is a State owned company from Norway it is not beyond the wit of Irish people to have their own State Owned company to exploit our own natural resources

Norway has more than one small gas-field to exploit, making it economically viable to develop their own expertise. It would take longer and cost more for us to do likewise.

cal29 wrote:

Our Government has colluded with these foreign companies to imprison Irish men and deliberately not Irish women as that could be bad PR for peaceful protest against the compulsary purchase of their lands for the laying of a gas pipe which experts have claimed maybe dangerous.

Or alternatively, these men were imprisoned for dis-obeying a court order. What is the state supposed to do when people ignore an injunction?
What's the evidence that this pipe is dangerous - sounds more like NIMBYism to me.

cal29

Mucco wrote:

Norway has more than one small gas-field to exploit, making it economically viable to develop their own expertise. It would take longer and cost more for us to do likewise.

so do we have more than one gas field

Mucco wrote:

Or alternatively, these men were imprisoned for dis-obeying a court order. What is the state supposed to do when people ignore an injunction?

put them in prison forever seems a little harsh for a peaceful protest especially when the company that secured the injunction had no right to be doing what these people were protesting about

Mucco wrote:

What's the evidence that this pipe is dangerous - sounds more like NIMBYism to me.

Im not an expert however people who are experts in this field have said this pipeline may be dangerous

bonkey

cal29 wrote:

so do we have more than one gas field

So your answer to "can you show it would be cost-effective" was firstly "well, Norway did it", followed by this.

I'm not sure I follow your logic, unless I interpret your statements to mean "no, I can't show it would be cost effective, but I still think we should have done it because its possible".

put them in prison forever seems a little harsh for a peaceful protest

So they've been given life sentences now? Wow....when did that happen?

jc

Mucco

cal29 wrote:

Im not an expert however people who are experts in this field have said this pipeline may be dangerous

Can you send me links to these experts please, I'm a bit tired of hearing of these people who seem to enjoy spending time in prison.

M

netwhizkid

Mucco wrote:

Norway has more than one small gas-field to exploit, making it economically viable to develop their own expertise. It would take longer and cost more for us to do likewise.

That's bull and you know it, so i suppose because Ireland is a small country we should have no ESB workers or Eircom workers with expertise either so i suppose, just because we are much smaller. Similarly i guess the likes of Mike's Takeaway in the corner (every town has a small one like it) has got less experience at doing fried food than McDonalds, Burger King or Wendys etc. You are insinuating that because Ireland is smaller we shouldn't bother developing such vital skills. That would be like saying let the RAF, Royal Navy do our military duties because we are too small. And as for those praising the wonders of competition, We need a single company Bord Gais IMO would be best and it should also be (State owned and run) supply and be in charge of our gas market. Massive swathes of Ireland are without piped gas and these greedy multi-nationals aren't interested if Kerry or Donegal are without gas. They are interested in squeezing the last drop out of whatever customers they have already. Competition doesnt work and never will, Look at the crap Telecoms service available because of it, why should Eircom invest in rural exchanges when the cheap skates will only switch their broadband to Smart or some other re-seller. Similarly has anyone flown Aer-Lingus lately man is there service gone crap because of ryanair eating into their profits, If there was a single monopoly on these things everyone would benefit, especially the coffers which would end up with us all having to pay LESS Taxes.

Mucco

netwhizkid wrote:

If there was a single monopoly on these things everyone would benefit, especially the coffers which would end up with us all having to pay LESS Taxes.

I hope you're taking the piss, either that or you have no experience of how competition actually works and keeps prices down. I won't bore you with examples, there are far too many.

That's bull and you know it, so i suppose because Ireland is a small country we should have no ESB workers or Eircom workers with expertise either so i suppose, just because we are much smaller.

I suggested that it's not economically viable for Ireland to develop it's own gas extraction expertise, maybe you can prove otherwise. Perhaps we should develop our own rockets to launch our own satellites into orbit, or is it cheaper and easier to use someone elses?

netwhizkid

Mucco wrote:

I hope you're taking the piss, either that or you have no experience of how competition actually works and keeps prices down. I won't bore you with examples, there are far too many.

So if competition was introduced into Irish Rail for instance do you think it would reduce prices ?? Irish rail as a monopoly require a €400million subsidy from the Government every year to survive and returned profits of around €18million in 2003 afaik. So if competition was introduced here do you think prices would go down? I highly doubt it. And how about all those private workers who are denied the right to join a union even though it is their constitutional right to do so. A prime example is the sacking of two Smart Telecom workers when the company found out they were involved in a union.

Mucco wrote:

I suggested that it's not economically viable for Ireland to develop it's own gas extraction expertise, maybe you can prove otherwise.

It would be economically viable yes, and more importantly it would be in the national interest. When will people learn that private enterprise is all about greed and nothing else. All important utilities and industries should be under state ownership and control. The sooner Margaret Thatcher.... uhhum sorry Mary Harney is given the biggest electoral kick up the behind the better, (it's hard to tell the difference tbh, both are capitalist pigs and both could cause blindness if one was to focus ones cornea on them for too long) Also both parties have it in for the republican movement, i honestly think Michael McDowell has done more to hinder the peace process than Maggie herself could.

Anyway on Topic: Moral we are getting ripped off by private industry and this corrupt government are playing it all into there hands. We actually subsidise big business through our "indirect" taxes. We have amongst the lowest corporation taxes in Europe all because of this government. So the next time you put €1.30 a litre petrol into your tank think of those friendly wall street traders who are benefiting from your taxes through the mega profits multinationals make here. Remember the American people they need our money, now that half of the south is under water.

netwhizkid

netwhizkid wrote:

So if competition was introduced into Irish Rail for instance do you think it would reduce prices ?? Irish rail as a monopoly require a €400million subsidy from the Government every year to survive and returned profits of around €18million in 2003 afaik. So if competition was introduced here do you think prices would go down? I highly doubt it.

Not withstanding the fact that this is a small market railwise of about 4 million people,where rail is actually a public service-(I'm pretty sure a private company would cut routes with half empty trains-would you like that?)there is some competition for Irish rail-they don't run the Luas.

And how about all those private workers who are denied the right to join a union even though it is their constitutional right to do so. A prime example is the sacking of two Smart Telecom workers when the company found out they were involved in a union.

Those are the rules when you take the job,It's explained to you.You don't have to work there.

It would be economically viable yes, and more importantly it would be in the national interest. When will people learn that private enterprise is all about greed and nothing else. All important utilities and industries should be under state ownership and control.

While I'd agree that A national interest in oil and gas off our shores is a worthwhile objective,you have to remember that these contracts were handed out years ago and it is only now with the oil and gas prices so high that they are worthwhile sending ashore.Where on earth do you think the Irish tax payer would come up with the funds to do this right now without foo barring the rest of the economy and rising taxes?

The sooner Margaret Thatcher.... uhhum sorry Mary Harney is given the biggest electoral kick up the behind the better, (it's hard to tell the difference tbh, both are capitalist pigs and both could cause blindness if one was to focus ones cornea on them for too long)

If you are going to post codswallop at least attempt to back it up with some facts.

Also both parties have it in for the republican movement,

Arent you being a tad economical with the facts there?As an observer of the peace process over the past number of years...whatever else one could say about them, FF have bent over backwards to accomadate SF.

i honestly think Michael McDowell has done more to hinder the peace process than Maggie herself could.

Well coming from someone who was telling us how great life in Ireland was in the 80's in another thread,I'm not surprised that you would come out with that pearl so lacking in reality.

If there was a single monopoly on these things everyone would benefit, especially the coffers which would end up with us all having to pay LESS Taxes.

I'm really wondering what planet you've learned this on-oh yeah planet 80's...Like I said on the other thread, would you like to know what Telecoms cost then before competition and what the standard was like?
Theres no point talking about energy as the price of the bulk of it on this island is governed by external factors beyond our control.

Anyway on Topic:

Yes that would be a good idea.

Moral we are getting ripped off by private industry and this corrupt government are playing it all into there hands. We actually subsidise big business through our "indirect" taxes. We have amongst the lowest corporation taxes in Europe all because of this government.

I see so like SF you want us to raise corporate taxes so that the corporations decide to move elsewhere and bring the jobs with them.
You really are fond of 80's style recessions arent you.

So the next time you put €1.30 a litre petrol into your tank

I'm getting mine for €1.05 actually,I shop around competition is good.

think of those friendly wall street traders who are benefiting from your taxes through the mega profits multinationals make here.

I'd rather think of the spending power of the people living and working here for those corporations thanks and indeed the Irish businesses that provide jobs supplying services to them.

Remember the American people they need our money, now that half of the south is under water.

You really will have to come up with something better than that if you want to be taken seriously...

bonkey

netwhizkid wrote:

It would be economically viable yes, and more importantly it would be in the national interest. When will people learn that private enterprise is all about greed and nothing else.

And you don't see the contradiction in these statements?

If it was economically viable, then someone would have already done it. The gas has been there for a long time, been known about for a long time, and yet not a single Irish person, body, orgaisation, or otherwise decided to go and stump up the money to form a new gas-extraction company, acquire the expertise necessary, and go and make a fortune.

Nope...that didn't happen. Instead, all of these greedy capitalists stood around and waited for someone else to walk in and (if your scenario is to believed) be handed this license to print money that they could have had themselves if they were just...umm....hang on....they could have had it if it was economically viable and they were greedy.....

Damn...reasoning is all falling apart. Maybe you can explain how I've interpreted your stance wrong.

(it's hard to tell the difference tbh, both are capitalist pigs and both could cause blindness if one was to focus ones cornea on them for too long)

What an eloquent, relevant argument.

Anyway on Topic: Moral we are getting ripped off by private industry and this corrupt government are playing it all into there hands.

I don't see how this is actually getting back on topic. Its getting back to your rant against the government being corrupt, but that - at best - is marginally related to the rise in electricity prices.

So the next time you put €1.30 a litre petrol into your tank think of those friendly wall street traders who are benefiting from your taxes through the mega profits multinationals make here.

Alternately, consider that a large chunk of this is tax, and is supposed to act as an encouragement to conserve your fuel. Maybe you might consider getting a smaller or more fuel-efficient car...or driving less.

Similarly, an increase in the cost of electricity might drive you to invest in making your useage more efficient, (thus allowing you to make a net saving because it costs less in the long run) rather than complain how you're being asked to pay more for a resource you've taken for granted for your entire life as being nothing but cheap and plentiful but which is no longer so.

Not only that, but the link originally provided was an article about how these prices were going to cripple industry. You know - the guys that you're convinced are being served by this.

It is further enlightening that ISME - the people doing the complaining in said article - not only oppose increased costs, but want to see a move towards the clean/alternate technologies...all of which are far more expensive per KwH than the traditional "dirty" technologies.

So they want cheap gas, cheap hydrocarbon-cycle electricity, and a move away from these cheap technologies to far more expensive ones....without any increase in cost.

Considering that these people (I don't know netwhizkid's background, so I exclude him/her from this) supposedly know something about the concepts of running a business, its amazing that they can be so dumb as to believe that more expensive things shouldn't and don't cost more. Its also staggering that they don't also understand the basic principle that if you want to give these more expensive alternatives an entry into the market, you either subsidise them down, or move the pricing of the cheaper alternative up to meet them.

Now, if bring the cheap prices up is wrong....obviously what our government should be doing is subsidising the expensive technologies to make them competetive. No..hang on...subsidies are bad too, remember? nwk was just ranting on about them too and how they are a sign of our bad government.

So...no making the expensive alternatives cost-competitive either way. That makes sense. Who needs to get away from hydrocarbons anyway.


jc

bonkey

netwhizkid wrote:

That's bull and you know it, so i suppose because Ireland is a small country we should have no ESB workers or Eircom workers with expertise either so i suppose, just because we are much smaller.

If you believe that telecoms, generation, and gas extraction technologies are comparable in the cost of acquiring expertise, then I'd suggest that you go and educate yourself on the issue before continuing.

You are insinuating that because Ireland is smaller we shouldn't bother developing such vital skills.

Who insinuated any such thing? Are you reading the same thread you're posting to?

And as for those praising the wonders of competition, We need a single company Bord Gais IMO would be best and it should also be (State owned and run) supply and be in charge of our gas market.

There is a case to be made for a natural monopoly on mainstream distribution. (Only mainstream, though, as large coastal industry could find it more cost-effective to source its own gas). There is no benefit to making gas acquisition a monopoly.

Massive swathes of Ireland are without piped gas and these greedy multi-nationals aren't interested if Kerry or Donegal are without gas.

Huh? You've lost me. Gas distribution in this country is currently state-managed. If people in Kerry or Donegal are without gas, its because your preferred model hasn't given it to them. Its got nothing to do with the multinationals that our government buys gas from. They'd be only too happy to sell us more gas if we decided to pipe it around Donegal and Kerry.

Competition doesnt work and never will,

Yeah. It sucks. Unfortunately, its still the best game in town.

why should Eircom invest in rural exchanges when the cheap skates will only switch their broadband to Smart or some other re-seller.

Because there is a distinction between the distribution network and the service it provides....although its a distinction you seem determined to avoid.

Similarly has anyone flown Aer-Lingus lately

Quite a lot.

man is there service gone crap because of ryanair eating into their profits,

I don't know what airline you're thinking of, but my experience of the service going to crap is that I now have to pay for a drink/bite to eat on the plane and in return they've slashed several hundred Euro off the cost of a return flight on the route I typically fly*.

I feel violated by getting ripped off by Aer Lingus like this, now that I can pay over-the-top prices for the drink I'd usually have had for free but still come out over 150 Euro better off for the flight.

Shocking. The sooner we could get back to a situation where I can pay twice as much for my seat, the happier both I and you will be.

jc

* Given that Swiss and other airlines are reintroducing free food on their flights, I predict that AL will, once more, offer my free meal to me within the next 24 months in order to remain competetive. nwk, apparently, believes this competition is a bad thing.