biting

paddyc · 07-09-2005 11:35am #1

Following a conversation with a mate the other night...

if you were in a digging match with some one... would you bite them...

Or

have you bitten someone, where and why?

ps clive keep it clean

paddy

Roper · 07-09-2005 12:09pm

You might want to edit the title Paddy! Didn't know what this was about!

If I thought I was in serious, life or limb threataning sh1t I probably would. But I'm still going to say no cos I like the moral high ground....... the airs fresh up here

dlofnep · 07-09-2005 2:07pm

Only if I had to.

Millionaire · 07-09-2005 10:55pm

yep! as mentioned inincident that happened me on 15 july approx 2 months ago in a very foreign country (more on that in a few weeks). (thats what Paddy is refering to, i'm sure Paddy ya don't mind me fillin in the story, theres an important lesson here)

5 serious thugs on one victim (thats me, by the way) sucker punched to begin with, and then a guy smashes a beer , bottle and tries to stick it in me face. luckly I disarmed him of bottle, (KM works)clinch, stand up grapple, go to ground (hear this out ground lads), and other 4 try to kick brains out of me, lucky I blocked most kicks, one got wallet out of back pocket, (they were trying to robb me) . 2 in front trying to kick my face in, one kicking head behind, and other trying to rip wallet out of back of jeans. when he got it and ran, I got up, but they were trying to finish the job. Yeah so bites went down. and no probs doing it I tell ya.

Lucky to get out alive, got a serious black eye (out like an apple) some brusies and down 200 euro. I reckon anyone untrained would be in intensive care or dead.

Reported info to cops. cops do SFA in the end (as usual) but they tell me I had run in with Russian criminal element. who were know in area to administer that level of violence.

My goal is to learn ground and grappling ( I go no real ground at all) and I am doingit in next week. but I tell you this, on the street its the last place you want to be believe you me. its suicide. keep hitting and moving.

also check this link out re biting

http://senshido.savi.ca/viewtopic.php?t=2852

john kavanagh · 07-09-2005 11:36pm

that sounds horrific gerry, thankfully you are ok!!

"...but I tell you this, on the street its the last place you want to be believe you me. its suicide. keep hitting and moving."

amen to that, i cant believe anyone would actually think its a good idea to go to the ground in a fight!!!!........but like you said in your example it did go to the ground so good to know a couple of things there just in case

sounds like a large part of your survival was down to cardio and 'toughness'

anyway good to hear you're ok

Millionaire · 08-09-2005 12:07am

Thanks John!

Yeah it was a rough job all right. but Thank God got out on worse that a very bad shiner, and a few bad bangs.

Naturally it is totally important to do ground, as you showed me, (and ahem.. me not fit move a muscle after a nano sec of you pining me..lol) I must learn it. its vital, and also great as you showed me, you can beat somone without busting them to bits, up to them to help themselves if a BJJ man gets them in a lock! tap tap!

funny thing and a serious point for all here..in heat of an attack, me a striker and ok at it too (I think??!!??) I end up clinch and on ground, where I have no experience. most street attacks go to ground, but when 4 other violent thugs ( and this were not a few lads on the beer trying to hit a slap type situation) appear, we got to be training for all events.

Point is I am a striker, and in total mayhem, all goes out window. and thats a point I was making on here before. when this happens anything goes, and go your way it won't ..ever.

cops told me among the russian crim element, life is cheap, well the man up above valued mine a wee bit more.

other that thing went well ;-)

padraigcarroll · 08-09-2005 6:40am

biting when in a scrap?
hella yeah

fingers in eyes?
damn straight

groin strikes etc
goddamn right its ok

I take the view any time u or urs are attacked like that, they are trying to kill you, so anything like that goes.Do anything you need to to survive.

Good man and fair play to ya, delighted to hear you got out of it as opposed to the alternative.
Well done.

Baldie · 08-09-2005 7:13am

Ok in my opinion - NO!!! Fingers in eyes and any other available poking point in the face, kicks to the groin - YES!!

I wouldn't bite. You don't know who has HIV, or hepatitis. If you go biting a total stranger in a fight then you'd have a pretty good chance of catching something....

None of ye thought of that did ye...?

Dyr · 08-09-2005 7:55am

the risk isnt as great as you'd think, you'd really need to sink those gnashers in to draw blood, plus once someone even feels that they're gonna be bitten i reckon they'll withdraw the targeted area post haste

pma-ire · 08-09-2005 8:03am

Millionare,

Jees man you never told me that!!

Well done on getting through!

Great comments by JK also (as he being the man who knows the floor).

In an attack like that you have to know ground, so that you can hopefully get the upper hand and GET THE F UP !!

Anyone that thinks that they don't have to know all ranges and possibilities to cover a street assualt must have good health insurance

Biting, knocks to the balls and pokes to the eyes are all valid in that situation. Though the crap you could pick up (as Baldie said) is a worry!!

Roper · 08-09-2005 8:17am

Jesus!

Sounds rough, and sounds to me like a black eye and €200 is a cheap price to pay for that. Like you said, life is cheap.

I think that story is more representative of self defence than any drunken brawl story. Sober, multiple attackers willing to do anything to you to get their aim. You did well to get away. You make a good point too about the ground game, everyone who is serious about defending themselves should be training in all the ranges.

Out of interest, was this a bad area of this country/city?

BLUNT · 08-09-2005 10:17am

Alright Paddy.......believe it ? or believe it not ? There is a style in the Phillie arts..thats complety based on biting ! Also there is a great deal of it trained,in some other systems too ??? I think it hard to say where to draw the line,at the end of the day even " The Hand's of Stone " ( Mr Duran ) bit the neck of Ken Bucanan...to win the world title ( before punching,him in the nut's )..
as he had put....black tape over his teeth,instead of a gum-shield ( so the legend goes )............It all boils down to,who want's to survive the most.It do'es not have a place in the ring and I think it should only be used,if you've nothing left or if your a woman.....who is being sexualy assalted.If your asking
would I bite or would I teach it............??? Horses for courses.Stay peacefull
Paddy all the best ya nut........J O Ceallaigh

Millionaire · 08-09-2005 11:19am

It was not in a very bad part of town, but later I found out that its a common incident, from the russian crims, and bottles and knives are the order of the day. (so cops said). Normally I am very aware , but when your off guard and a few pints in , its a bit harder to see these things coming. Plus i am very independent, and go places alone (e.g bars!!!) so I was on me own when this happend.

Re ground, I was thinking it I had be able to get on some sort of arm bar and break guys arm , would it have stopped the others??? from the level of violence and venom in the attackers (I'd say they had done this many times before) I think it would not have stopped them. Still would have been nice to get an arm break in!! LOL !!

Lucky I am strong in my mind, and I was not physcologically damaged by this (some people get messedp for years over things like this)

I am very thankful to get out with only a few brusies. and in a very very strange sort of way, I am kind of glad it happened, as well it was the ultimate pressure test (full contact, edged weapons, and no pads), my training saved me, I blocked most kicks for 3 -4 attackers on ground (blocks and sort of a crazy monkey defence) , and it shows me where I need to go training wise, and I am resolute to train even harder.

Roper · 08-09-2005 12:09pm

and in a very very strange sort of way, I am kind of glad it happened

A know a lady who caters for men like you, she's cheap too but I don't think she uses bottles.

Musashi · 08-09-2005 12:41pm

Millionaire,
Just a quick question, were you armed in any way,expedient or otherwise? Would something like a Perrin La Griffe been any use or would you have been able to deploy once you were sucker punched and embroiled in this situation?
If you'd had a stout walking stick,cane,Sjambok or a barstool or ashtray close to hand would it have mattered.You say one guy broke a bottle,did he bring it with or pick it up at the time?
Mate of mine got gang mugged like this in Barcelona last year,again seems to be very common as his GF also got mugged in a seperate incident,and received a broken nose. He took to carrying a leather belt with a large buckle with him, and letting suspicious groups know that he'd seen them and would use it if needed.
Do you think you'd been targeted earlier, or was this a wrong place wrong time deal? Just wondering if they had seen the wallet being placed in your back pocket, essentially negating any benefit to be gained from carrying a second "dummy" wallet for giving up to muggers?
As to the morality or otherwise of "Dirty Fighting", the guy tried to bottle you, and ambushed you with a superior force.Military doctrine dictates heavy expenditure of ammo to fight out through an ambush.You did not know their intentions beyond a superior force prepared to use possibly deadly force was already on you, you were equally in a fight for your life. At that point if you were certified for concealed carry, where ever you were, I think you'd have been justified in fighting clear enough to draw and engage them with a hail of jacketed hollow points.If all they got was a biting they should count themselves lucky.

Good work on coming out of this one intact man!

Millionaire · 08-09-2005 1:38pm

It happened so fast, I did not even thing of an improvised weapon (there was bottles at hand) and in theory I know , but actually I never trained or practiced using weapons like these (now theres an idea for a RBSD training exercise) . but attacker No 1 grabbed a bottle when I moved on time after I go the punch. I remember this clearly, now instinctive it was for him to grab bottle and smash and I knew right then that these guys were "pros" and not just some drunk guy getting aggressive. and I felt serious fear then and went into survial mode.

Yeah I'd say they seen the big wallet in me jeans ( usually never carry it there) , it was wrong place wrong time, and they saw I was an out of towner and alone. so basically a good target. I got a quick "interview" and then BANG!! off she kicks. a Text book attack.

After that as I said it was all a blurr, very fast, high on adreline (me and attackers, and them probably on something else too, they were so vicious).

vasch_ro · 08-09-2005 4:06pm

It has been my experience that biting is not as uncommon as it seems

these stats seem to bear this out
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/sharks/attacks/relariskcity.htm

at work I have come across a number of biting incidents, which while it caused a lot of blood to be spilled did not end a fight as such,
the worrying aspect for any of my colleagues was the risk of HIV infection, a couple of good mates had to go through months of testing following a particularly bad biting incident to ears, hands,arms.

It is annoying and perhaps somewhat shocking, but to my mind it just makes the person bitten really really pissed off, in the case I personally witnessed this was always the case, it was never a show stopper , rather a catalyst for further aggression. I think in the heat of the moment when the reptile brain takes over ,me biting some one could be a distinct possibiliy!

breadmonkey · 08-09-2005 4:19pm

"Lion shark stabs human", lol

goo · 09-09-2005 2:10pm

It's amazing that you got out of this as well as you did, I know you feel lucky but you should feel fairly proud too. You said you used KM to take the bottle off the guy, even after taking one in the face and having a few to drink, which is fairly amazing. Have you done much Krav Maga?

Millionaire · 09-09-2005 2:48pm

done 2 years KM in ireland. they got a great training program there.

KM is a good system of street stuff (but it does not have all the answers either, then again what system does!).

KM is a military system, so unarmed hand to hand, lots of time spend on defences from stick, knife, pistol and at advanced levels, assault rife disarms, hostage rescue, etc etc.

there are a few diferent systems of KM and organisations. for example in Israel , judo techniques, wrestling, locks, and ground fighting is a serious part of the training and that was very new to me. all techniques are practiced.

The Americans have commercialized KM and from people who have trainied in the famous full of hollywood celeb KM centre in LA, they have told me there it is really watered down. some of them must be afraid of getting a slap or something! lol! but as I said different organisations of KM teach different versions of it.

still you can get a DVD set that covers some of the basic techniques which is pretty good for getting an idea.

look at www.kravmaga.com

here is some staged examples of techniques.
http://www.kravmaga.com/video.asp

doing the techniques is cool, but how you practice them and stress test them is what counts. KM is designed to be simple and learned quickly , the core weapons defence techniques carry a very very similar theme.

Dave Joyce · 09-09-2005 5:04pm

Millionaire first and foremost well done on getting out of a serious situation relatively unharmed. However, and I am not being personal but to go drinking anywhere alone without someone watching your back is naive, but to do it in an unfamiliar country is to say the least foolish. Before going to any country I usually do a search on the likes of lonelyplanet to find out a bit about the place and I have always found some useful info (which in no way suggests you could have avoided the encounter by just reading). Not advocating this, as everyone has their own opinion but I would always carry something improvised which can be used as a weapon (which can be very effective but legal) particularly in those type of circumstances. However, your afterthoughts I find confusing that you advise hitting and moving (which I think is excellant advise btw) but now say your goal is to learn groundwork. I also find it hard to be able to pull off an arm break You were extremely lucky none of the others had any edged weapons during the encounter.

spiral · 09-09-2005 5:58pm

May be wrong here but Im presuming by groundwork he meant enough to learn how to get up quick if he goes down ?

goo · 09-09-2005 6:44pm

Yeah, that's what he said - he wants to be able to keep himself off his back and back to his feet.

Millionaire · 09-09-2005 8:59pm

Hi Lads

Dave is totally right re his advice. ah ..me....well...sometimes I am a bit of a loner and I love the beer and a laugh, i head places solo, very independent type, and no matter where I am I always find the late night bolt holes. so yeah I have had a few situations over the years (unfortunately) where I had to defend myself. but that comes with the turf I suppose. yeah I know its totally stupid, but that will never change on me I dont think ..old dogs new tricks ( and I damn hate violence and aggression,I love fun and a laugh)

but that night I think if i was not me attacked..someone else would have got it. honestly I have never ever seen a level of street violence and visicousness that these guys had. was very scary. very lucky none had blades.

I want to learn ground work anyway, I know the fend them off and get up stuff, which I actually did. so yeah when the barrage of kicks stopped I was able to get up fast.

But I want to learn full ground work. just to round myself off as a martial artist. as I do not know any real stuff. and John at Straight Blast kindly give me a lesson a few months back, I am just flabbergasted at what he could do on ground, and arm breaks, chokes etc. he s top of his game. I said to meself this is something I go to learn in the future...even just get the basics down and perfect them. thats what I will earn next.

Musashi · 09-09-2005 11:40pm

Just another couple questions, were you carrying at the time?

Kubotan,Koppo,Stinger,Knucks,Chucks,Cosh,Blackjack,Flexible weapon,Mace like substance (besides Pee), or anything at all?

Was this some kind of Richard Marcinko "team building" exercise you were on, until the team of lightweights got bladdered and went home?
Leaving our Lone Samurai Alky Hero to fend for himself on foreign soil? The cads!

Finally, for Dave, is this the type of Mass Attack ye drill and how does it usually end? Unarmed versus edged weapon (the bottle) or small assistor ( like a Spyderco) versus bottle et al.

Cheers lads.

Millionaire · 10-09-2005 3:51am

No I was in Israel where this happened (ok out o bag now) I was there for a month. but this happened 1st night.

No I was not carrying and I never do. I am not into fightin. I find i you carry sort of like your near expecting it. and then u be on guard. sure I carried before but , man you cant relax. I had a beer or 25 pints tonight LOL with a thai box expert on the boards. and he say Dave Joyce has a wee flash lamp thing. see i m not trained in that.

In israel I 50% people in army and rest in security cops etc etc everyone is packing guns, and I mean every one 24 7. so I assumed there would be no crime re this. so I went on piss solo. row happened. etc. anyway I was fighting for me life, but at same time thinking if I gouge an eye maybe I would end up in serious trouble with the law. and I respect the law. do you see my point.? like you can ramp that lovely Cross pen your Aunt bought you for starting college into some one eyes or throat (joe peshi in some mafia movie) but my god law is always against you and you do serious time.

I think sometimes better to disarm , block, take a slap or two and escape, disappear. I remember years ago when I lived in canada at university in a red neck biker bar there I saw about 18 inches in front of me a lad getting a beer bottle smashed, and it broke over his eye balls. blood spraying all over. man it was so scary. horrible! funny about 5 years ago 3 thugs started on me in lillie brodello, got a bottle whacked over me left cheek a another sucker punch thing , i was not even tipsy and my mate bottled it, grabbed my right arm pulling me back and I had no guard even so I had to kick like hell , the thugs broke glasses etc, bouncer 1 saw it stood back. I came off ok, just some cuts, and I did ok LOL. I think they must have been drug dealers or something if bouncer stood back, maybe on a back hander, to turn a blind eye to the dealin in there??!!?? can a man not have a beer in peace! LOL!!

as I said re what Dave J said, I go off solo, bullys in a gang always pick on solo operators, ok stupid. but I do not think that will ever change with me. thats why i get in alot of scrapes and how i can give examples on here. I remember last year someone on here giving me grief re this saying I was a thug. well I hate fighting,I even hate sparring but have to do it hard to improve myself. maybe I can pass this experince on to others so they can avoid it and stop a serious assualt hitting them?

I gave the mate some piece of my mind the next day. yellow so and so!

spiral · 10-09-2005 12:27pm

Just out of curiosity millionare were there many bystanders ?

AARRRGH · 10-09-2005 12:48pm

Millionaire - how do you get into so many fight if you are "not into fightin"?

I'm genuinely not into violence and I've never been in a fight. And I've lived in some very dodgy places/hung around with some very dodgy people...

Millionaire · 10-09-2005 2:19pm

yeah there was some people about. but no one helped me.

I did not get into a fight as such, I was attacked. tourist, alone, these guys sussed out an easy target for some quick cash.

Actually I made myself look bad on here. No I donot get into fights, and try to avoid them. I spent 6 years in Canada, east coast, where I was it was real hilly billie type place. Kinda like movie Delieverance!! LOts of macho cowboy/ biker types, idea of a fun nigth was get pissed and batter someone usually smaller . I had real long hair back then, and the red necks hated "hippies" so they tended to pick on anyone of different race, color, or looks. it was a pretty horrible place at the time, I tell ya!!!!
Charlottetown Prince Edward Island.

THEIR culture seemed to that to be a Real Man, they had to be out brawling and thats all these people could speak about.

AARRRGH · 10-09-2005 2:37pm

Sure, I wasn't criticising, just looking for clarification

Glad to hear you're OK. A friend of mine was recently imprisoned in Israel - sounds like a horrendous country.

Millionaire · 10-09-2005 3:59pm

Its a kind of strange place. too many guns!!!

Dave Joyce · 10-09-2005 7:02pm

Finally, for Dave, is this the type of Mass Attack ye drill and how does it usually end? Unarmed versus edged weapon (the bottle) or small assistor ( like a Spyderco) versus bottle et al.

Firstly Mush I am not an expert in AK but have seen a lot of different systems down through the years and know when I see something thats extremely worthwhile (to say the least), so while we have drilled Mass Attack its only at an introductory level but its normally say 3 on 1 with the one having an edged weapon and expecting one of the three (at least) to be carrying a blade (which means you treat it as if all 3 were). I know at senior levels in the system there is a lot of improvisation with a lot more pressure, different weapons introduced (baseball bats etc) and guys trying to really hit you :eek:

I had a beer or 25 pints tonight LOL with a thai box expert on the boards. and he say Dave Joyce has a wee flash lamp thing. see i m not trained in that.
Thats what we mean when we say improvised weapons which can be very effective, another example is the "rock in a sock" clip on the AK website. Millionaire I really appreciate where you're coming from but you don't know to what levels some people are prepared to take things and while you may be lucky and they don't kill you, you could lose an eye, have your neck or back broken and to me this type of quality of life would be the same as suffering death. I also understand your viewpoint from a morals perspective but hey man if these type of people **** with you there's only one thing they understand and I wouldn't have any regrets/hesitations in ****ing them up in that same type of situation!!

Musashi · 10-09-2005 9:08pm

Dave Joyce has a wee flash lamp thing. see i m not trained in that.

I generally have an Inova X5, a mini maglight with an LED lamp or a Nuwai QIII on me.Any of them will do as a kubotan in a pinch.Even when I was stopped and searched by the Gardai, they found the Inova, asked what it was, satisfied them it was a flashlight and got it back.No bother once your not acting the tit with it really.

pma-ire · 11-09-2005 7:05am

Musashi wrote:

I generally have an Inova X5, a mini maglight with an LED lamp or a Nuwai QIII on me.Any of them will do as a kubotan in a pinch.Even when I was stopped and searched by the Gardai, they found the Inova, asked what it was, satisfied them it was a flashlight and got it back.No bother once your not acting the tit with it really.

Good thing they did'int see whats in the boot of your car then

BLUNT · 11-09-2005 7:46am

Sound's like a bad night out,dont think I'll go there on me holidays.Alright Dave.....hows the form ??? Carrying weapon's dont know about....one !
but the ole arts,have a lot to offer as Dave said as in fighting,more than one.Training to deal with,a couple of guy's if a complety differnt set up....
than just one on one ( ie....sport ) Fighting on the ground aint healthy but you do ned to know how to get up,when your down ??? I think Paddy could back me up......on the Krabi Krabong as they have tones of three man drills
fighting on the run & on the ground.....same as Dave or Aiodan from a Phillie point of view.Looking around it seem's that a lot of people are trying to remake the wheel ( as in maken new system's ).......even the ole rock in da the sock....it can be found,in Java & Sumatra and worn every day,its part of the traditional dress...in the ole skool years.All these modern drills have deen around as long as man....??? As in for carring a weapon daily !!! I think your better,maken the weapon's your born with as in your body...hard.Train your shin's 'n' fore arms up..even in the Thai way,it's like haven two baseball bat's with you....all the time.The elbow,when hardened is one of the most blood thirsty weapons on you............next to biten ??? JC

biting

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