Clonmel - the largest inland town in Ireland?

BossArky

1) What is the largest inland town in Ireland?

I'm from Clonmel originally and was always led to believe it was Clonmel. I know many people from Drogheda would argue this. Kilkenny is a city and therefore exempt from the debate.

2) What defines a city? (population or cathedral)

I thought a place is deemed a city if it has a cathedral. Currently at work there are a number of us nit-picking these two questions.

BizzyC

I think that traditionally, a city must have a cathedral.

Largest inland town, I'd say is longford or tullamore at a guess.

full forward

Killarney has a catherdral but nobody calls it a city.

Scraggs

BossArky wrote:

2) What defines a city? (population or cathedral)

I thought a place is deemed a city if it has a cathedral.

I think it must be population...Carlow has a cathedral but its not a city.

Wasnt KK given city 'status' because of some sort of government decentralisation/relocation thingy years ago? [which afaik some people are totally against this??]

IceHawk

I think it's something to do with population. A couple of months ago a news story ran that Limerick City's population had dropped to 52000, and if the trend continued it was in danger of losing it's city status. I think if the population is greater than 50000, it is a city.

full forward

Me finds this...

Linky

ionapaul

I *think* cities hold that status because of governmental designation - Galway was awarded city status in the 15th century by the British crown. Check out this interesting page, list of Irish cities half-way down the page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_status_in_the_United_Kingdom

Kilkenny seems 'officially' a city.

Ann Elk

During the forays over here by that lovely Cromwell lad all those years back the Capital of Ireland was mover to Kilkenny for three years due to its distance from the sea and the fact that it was quite well fortified - it's retained city status ever since - Sligo must be approaching one of the biggers towns - Ennis is kinda big too

Big Ears

full forward wrote:

Me finds this...

Linky

Which shows that the capital of North Tipperary is Nenagh not Thurles .
Many people think that its Thurles and I just wanted to clear that up .

mike65

Dundalk is Irelands largest town and Kilkenny is NOT a city.

Mike.

LegacyUser

Celbridge is the 20th biggest town in Ireland!? WTF?? The biggest town in ireland with only 1 street in it!!

cil_aine

port laoise? maybe i dont know.

jank

Think the population of cork is kinda low.
Should be nearer 230,00 ish afaik

CiaranC

Celbridge must be borderline suburb of Dublin at this stage..

Saruman

Strange.. the 2004 census report which i assume is more official than wikkipedia has very different population breakdowns.

Kilkenny is a city afaik becuase it was the original capital of ireland.
Having catherderals does not make a town a city. Athlone and Mullingar have very similar catherderals. Cobh has a big one too.

I think a city is more to do with government designation etc. Look at england, brighton was awwarded city status a few years back, they held an oppinion poll or something to decide

bounty

i thought cities had to have a population of over 1 million, so really we only have 2 cities, dublin and belfast...

Saruman

Eh no... Sure belfast does not even come close to being 1m, the whole of NI is only 1.5m or so.

some countries like luxemburg dont even have populations of half a million and they have cities

Blisterman

Does Swords not count as a suburb of Dublin?
According to that wikipedia article, its a town unto itself.

is_that_so

mike65 wrote:

Dundalk is Irelands largest town and Kilkenny is NOT a city.

Mike.

Kilkenny does have a charter which is the basis for most of the Irish "cities"
Actually Drogheda is; 4000 more people than Dundalk.

Big Ears

jank wrote:

Think the population of cork is kinda low.
Should be nearer 230,00 ish afaik

It was 3 years years ago anyway , and id say some are still slightly incorrect .

the largest inland town is obviosly arigna in roscommon!!!!!! :rolleyes:

Ann Elk

Could also be Muff in Donegal, i'm sure i've heard lots of people talking about huge Muff, big Muff etc. Hmmm..........

aodh_rua

Cities used to gain their status by the issuing of a Royal Charter and the establishment of a Corporation to oversee their running. Obviously as a republic that system doesn't persist to today, however the government can still designate a town a city in order to increase its local government powers. The most recently elevated town was Sligo which was made a city in the last few years.

Saruman

Yes i was in sligo last month and found it strange when i saw signs for "sligo, Gateway city to the west" or something along those lines I was thinking.. eh sligo is not a city.

But i guess it is! http://www.sligoborough.ie/

Flukey

They have the Cats Laugh comedy Festival in Kilkenny, but the biggest joke there is calling it a city. It is very small. See a thread I put up recenly in the Kilkenny City forum which you'll find under South-East in Regions.

Lots of towns have Cathedrals. Longford is another one. There are not many places in Ireland that really feel like a city. Some of them have Roayl Charters, like Kilkenny, but many of those date from a time where you didn't have to have much in terms of size to be regarded as a city.

ionapaul

Tuam has a Cathedral too - if Tuam is a city then god help us all!

Despite charters, government designations and so on, IMHO the only cities in the Republic are Dublin, Cork, lovely Galway, Limerick and Waterford. The other urban centres range from large towns such as Sligo down to small villages like Port Magee in Kerry

BossArky

BossArky wrote:

1) What is the largest inland town in Ireland?

Kilkenny is a city and therefore exempt from the debate.

kilkenny has a population of 18000 and Clonmel has a population of 22000 and is bigger area squared.

i would imagine the size of a city is determined by area squared as there is 1m people in dublin yet only hundreds of thousands in the likes of cork or limerick yet have nearly the same area squared. the reason kilkenny is a city is because of nostalgic reasons as it is recognised as irelands first capital.

tony 2 tone

Blisterman wrote:

Does Swords not count as a suburb of Dublin?
According to that wikipedia article, its a town unto itself.

And according to that Fingal is a County too............

BossArky

I don't know where they got that census info in the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_towns_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland/Largest_100

When I was in primary school I was led to belief that Clonmel had 17,000 inhabitants or thereabouts. That was about 15 years ago and the place has grown alot since then.

The first 5 of the list are cities and don't count towards my orginal question (biggest inland town). Are Dundalk and Drogheda actually >30,000??

Aren't Bray & Swords more part of Dublin that towns in there own right? (I work in Swords, dosen't seem as big as 27,000+)

At a random guess I would say that Clonmel must be around the 25,000 mark by now... which would put it up at the top of the inland town list (if someone can clear up the Dundalk and Drogheda question)

1 Dublin & Suburbs County Dublin 1,004,614
2 Cork & Suburbs County Cork 186,239
3 Limerick & Suburbs County Limerick and County Clare 86,998
4 Galway & Suburbs County Galway 66,163
5 Waterford & Suburbs County Waterford and County Kilkenny 46,736
6 Dundalk & Suburbs County Louth 32,505
7 Drogheda & Environs County Louth and County Meath 31,020
8 Bray & Environs County Dublin and County Wicklow 30,951
9 Swords County Fingal 27,175
10 Ennis & Environs County Clare 22,051
11 Tralee & Environs County Kerry 21,987
12 Kilkenny & Environs County Kilkenny 20,735
13 Sligo & Environs County Sligo 19,735
14 Navan & Environs County Meath 19,417
15 Carlow & Environs County Carlow and County Laois 18,487
16 Naas County Kildare 18,288
17 Wexford & Environs County Wexford 17,235
18 Clonmel & Environs County Tipperary and County Waterford 16,910
19 Newbridge & Environs County Kildare 16,739
20 Celbridge County Kildare 16,016
21 Athlone County Westmeath and County Roscommon 15,936
22 Mullingar & Environs County Westmeath 15,621
23 Letterkenny & Environs County Donegal 15,231
24 Leixlip County Kildare 15,016
25 Malahide County Fingal 13,826
26 Killarney & Environs County Kerry 13,137
27 Portlaoise & Environs County Laois 12,127
28 Greystones & Environs County Wicklow 11,913
29 Castlebar & Environs County Mayo 11,371
30 Carrigaline County Cork 11,191
31 Tullamore & Environs County Offaly 11,098
32 Balbriggan & Environs County Fingal 10,294
33 Maynooth County Kildare 10,151
34 Arklow & Environs County Wicklow 9,993
35 Cobh & Environs County Cork 9,811
36 Ballina County Mayo 9,647
37 Wicklow & Environs County Wicklow 9,355
38 Skerries County Fingal 9,149
39 Enniscorthy & Environs County Wexford 8,964
40 Mallow & Environs County Cork 8,937
41 Shannon & Environs County Clare 8,561
42 Portmarnock County Fingal 8,376
43 Tramore & Environs County Waterford 8,305
44 Midleton & Environs County Cork 7,957
45 Longford & Environs County Longford 7,557
46 Dungarvan & Environs County Waterford 7,452
47 Thurles & Environs County Tipperary 7,425
48 Rush County Fingal 6,769
49 Youghal & Environs County Cork 6,597
50 New Ross & Environs County Wexford 6,537
51 Nenagh & Environs County Tipperary 6,454
52 Ashbourne County Meath 6,362
53 Ballinasloe & Environs County Galway and County Roscommon 6,219
54 Cavan & Environs County Cavan 6,098
55 Athy County Kildare 6,049
56 Tuam & Environs County Galway 5,947
57 Monaghan & Environs County Monaghan 5,936
58 Trim & Environs County Meath 5,894
59 Kildare County Kildare 5,694
60 Westport & Environs County Mayo 5,634
61 Laytown-Bettystown-Mornington County Meath 5,597
62 Carrick-on-Suir & Environs County Tipperary & County Waterford 5,586
63 Dunboyne County Meath 5,363
64 Gorey & Environs County Wexford 5,282
65 Buncrana & Environs County Donegal 5,271
66 Bandon & Environs County Cork 5,161
67 Tipperary & Environs County Tipperary 4,964
68 Fermoy & Environs County Cork 4,804
69 Passage West & Environs County Cork 4,595
70 Roscrea County Tipperary 4,578
71 Edenderry & Environs County Offaly 4,559
72 Roscommon County Roscommon 4,489
73 Birr & Environs County Offaly and County Tipperary 4,436
74 Kells & Environs County Meath 4,421
75 Clane County Kildare 4,417
76 Newcastle West County Limerick 4,017
77 Loughrea County Galway 4,004
78 Portarlington County Laois and County Offaly 4,001
79 Listowel County Kerry 3,999
80 Ardee & Environs County Louth 3,948
81 Donabate County Fingal 3,854
82 Ratoath County Meath 3,794
83 Clonakilty County Cork 3,698
84 Ballybofey-Stranorlar County Donegal 3,603
85 Mountmellick & Environs County Laois 3,361
86 Mitchelstown County Cork 3,300
87 Bantry County Cork 3,150
88 Dunshaughlin County Meath 3,063
89 Tower County Cork 3,032
90 Macroom & Environs County Cork 2,985
91 Sallins County Kildare 2,922
92 Kilcoole County Wicklow 2,826
93 Cahir County Tipperary 2,794
94 Kilcock County Kildare 2,740
95 Muine Bheag & Environs County Carlow 2,728
96 Clara County Offaly 2,704
97 Kilrush County Clare 2,699
98 Charleville County Cork 2,685
99 Monasterevin County Kildare 2,583
100 Newtownmountkennedy County Wicklow 2,521

is_that_so

BossArky wrote:

The first 5 of the list are cities and don't count towards my orginal question (biggest inland town). Are Dundalk and Drogheda actually >30,000??

6 Dundalk & Suburbs County Louth 32,505
7 Drogheda & Environs County Louth and County Meath 31,020

Yep. Apparently they lost 4000 from Drogheda's total in the census (http://www.unison.ie/drogheda_independent/stories.php3?ca=34&si=1175047&issue_id=10817) which makes it 35000 although I have heard current numbers of 38000 bandied about.

The story

At a meeting ahead of the announcement of the most important planning document in recent years, ministers were told the population of Drogheda was significantly lower than the reality.

The meeting, which was titled ‘Population Stats: Dundalk versus Drogheda’, had a strong impact on the decision to name Dundalk as a Gateway town and exclude Drogheda, it has been suggested.

Figures used at the meeting, obtained by Deputy Fergus O’Dowd through a recent Freedom of Information search, put the population of Drogheda and its environs at 28,406 and Dundalk at 32,373 in 2002.

A spokesperson from the Central Statistics Office confirmed, however, that the figures used at the meeting were deeply flawed. The correct figure for Drogheda’s population would have been closer to 32,000, meaning there was little difference between the two towns.

The figures used at the meeting even suggested that 98 people lived in the ‘environs of Drogheda’ in Louth in 2002. Drogheda Borough Council said this week the figure is closer to 2,500. The original figures used did not include anyone in Meath, even though parts of that county are within the environs of Drogheda.

Deputy O’Dowd dubbed the figures ridiculous. Individual estates within the ‘environs of Drogheda’ but outside the strict boundary of the town would contain a larger population than 98 people, he said.

This was borne out when the census revealed that the environs of Drogheda were growing rapidly, at a rate of over 200%. Although these figures weren’t available at the time of the meeting, Deputy O’Dowd said some common sense would have shown that the population of the environs of Drogheda was larger than 98 and he strongly criticised them for not including anyone in Meath in the total population figure for Drogheda.

This meant that the cabinet was led to believe that Drogheda’s population was significantly lower than Dundalk’s and could have tipped the balance in the decision not to name Drogheda in the strategy.

Victor

Blisterman wrote:

Does Swords not count as a suburb of Dublin?
According to that wikipedia article, its a town unto itself.

It is a suburb, but it is not part of the continuous urban area of dublin.

Victor

BossArky wrote:

Clonmel - the largest inland town in Ireland?

This is a contrived question, advocated only by people from Clonmel.

mike65 wrote:

Dundalk is Irelands largest town and Kilkenny is NOT a city.

But his question is inland town.

BossArky wrote:

When I was in primary school I was led to belief that Clonmel had 17,000 inhabitants or thereabouts. That was about 15 years ago and the place has grown alot since then.

Probably more houses, but fewer people per house.

BossArky wrote:

The first 5 of the list are cities and don't count towards my orginal question (biggest inland town). Are Dundalk and Drogheda actually >30,000??

Yes they are.

BossArky

Ok thanks all of you for the info / discussion. Looks like I'm just going to have to go back to Clonmel, find a pretty lass with whom to raise the population with :rolleyes: