MRC are NGB for F-Class shooting?

MP

Does anyone have an opinion on MRC sending a team to Bisley to compete in F-Class (supposedly a National team) without prior team selection? Seems the NRPAI (SSAI) are not the only ones to falsely represent a shooting competition and send a Irish Team to foreign competitions! Is this good for shooting sports? Perhaps Johnny and a few of his mates from the pub can form a team to compete in International events as there is apparently no need to follow any selection criteria? Opinions anyone?

Sparks

Who is the F-Class NGB MP?

edit: And I think everyone already knows my opinion on this sort of administration in excessive detail (Though I have no doubt it'll be reported wrong in the pubs after matches - there are still shooters who think I was criticising them after the Tirol Open even though it was there in black and white that I wasn't... *mutter, mutter*)

Ammoman

MP wrote:

Does anyone have an opinion on MRC sending a team to Bisley to compete in F-Class (supposedly a National team) without prior team selection? Seems the NRPAI (SSAI) are not the only ones to falsely represent a shooting competition and send a Irish Team to foreign competitions! Is this good for shooting sports? Perhaps Johnny and a few of his mates from the pub can form a team to compete in International events as there is apparently no need to follow any selection criteria? Opinions anyone?

Who do they think they are , MRC are not affiliated to any of the Irish NGBs and yet they have the cheek to call themselves the National Shooting Center of Ireland . I dont remember anyone voting in any club as a national boby . Now they decide to send a couple of lads away to Bisley and call them a national team ? I dont think so . If thats the case , who wants to be on the next national team , all you have to do is let me know who you are , Ill book the range in Bisley , and we can get some T Shirts made up with Team Ireland printed on them .

I think its time that people stood up to MRC , they are making decisions for the sport , not themselves , and they think they can do what they want without reprecussions . If it continues , eventually you wont be able to have a firearm unless you are a member of MRC , I'm sure that they would love that . :mad: :mad:

BlackDot

I'm not about to be drawn on a dispute in which I have little interest - to me you can call a range what you want, it is the preception of the shooting community that to me is more important. If a majority of shooters were to consider one range the best in the country and I owned that range I wouldn't change the name to the National Shooting Centre I'd just be happy that so many shooters liked my range - a name is just that.

As with Sparks I'm not up on this type of shooting and before this were to go any further some more facts would be appreciated. Was the competition an international competition open to National Teams only or was it a competition where club teams competed. I remember Sparks mentioning that his club sent shooters to Bisley back in the start of the year and they competed as a club team and no one was shouting murder.

Also can we be sure that it wasn't the Bisley organisers that entered them as "Team Ireland" in order to raise the profile of their own competition.

Finally and most importantly - how did they do?

BD

ogam

Ammoman wrote:

Who do they think they are , MRC are not affiliated to any of the Irish NGBs and yet they have the cheek to call themselves the National Shooting Center of Ireland . I dont remember anyone voting in any club as a national boby . Now they decide to send a couple of lads away to Bisley and call them a national team ? I dont think so . If thats the case , who wants to be on the next national team , all you have to do is let me know who you are , Ill book the range in Bisley , and we can get some T Shirts made up with Team Ireland printed on them .

I think its time that people stood up to MRC , they are making decisions for the sport , not themselves , and they think they can do what they want without reprecussions . If it continues , eventually you wont be able to have a firearm unless you are a member of MRC , I'm sure that they would love that . :mad: :mad:

I agree with Ammoman - if one club unilatterly decides they are a national team or the national shooting centre what is the point of us having irish teams with the likes of Flood and Connolly who represent us so well abroad and who do not get enough recognition from the sport and the media. Anyone who gets chosen to represent ireland works long and hard to reach the stanard required. For individuals to go to Bisley and call themselves the 'national team' is and insult to the real national shooting teams of ireland.
MRC is a private club owned by individuals and they have no mandate from any national organisation to call themselves a national team or shooting centre. They will not affliate themselves with any national shooting bodies and any they joined they left when they couldnt dominate proceedings. :rolleyes:

Ammoman

ogam wrote:

I agree with Ammoman - if one club unilatterly decides they are a national team or the national shooting centre what is the point of us having irish teams with the likes of Flood and Connolly who represent us so well abroad and who do not get enough recognition from the sport and the media. Anyone who gets chosen to represent ireland works long and hard to reach the stanard required. For individuals to go to Bisley and call themselves the 'national team' is and insult to the real national shooting teams of ireland.
MRC is a private club owned by individuals and they have no mandate from any national organisation to call themselves a national team or shooting centre. They will not affliate themselves with any national shooting bodies and any they joined they left when they couldnt dominate proceedings. :rolleyes:

Very true , but they are not a club per say , they are a limited company , but yes MRC have overstepped the line and without authorisation from any Irish NGB . They do not, and should not be allowed to represent Irish Shooting . :mad:

Sparks

On a small sidepoint ammoman, being a limited company is a better arrangement than being a private club. For example, the NTSA is a limited company and thus governed by the Companies Acts which means that there is always a route open to the members to seek redress if the rules are not obeyed, enforced by a third party. In other cases, such as the NRPAI, no such route exists and we are dependent on the force of personalities brought to bear, which is frankly, not an acceptable arrangement in this day and age.

I'm still wondering who the NGB for F-Class is though. After all, the MRC lads did try to set up an NGB for F-Class and were only stopped by the NRPAI in the 2001 NRPAI AGM. I know the LRRA have been set up recently, but I've no idea if they're now the recognised body or not.

And having raised those two points, no, this does sound rather distinctly wrong to me, and someone needs a wrist-slap if it is in fact what it looks like. I'm just not sure if there's anyone who is authorised to issue that slap!

civdef

Are there other clubs currently in a position to comete at this level?

Sparks

Several from up north civ; but that's not really the point of the matter!

Ammoman

civdef wrote:

Are there other clubs currently in a position to comete at this level?

There are a number of individuals that would be better qualified to shoot F Class in this country , than the individuals that were chosen by MRC , there are NO clubs AFIK that specialise in F Class shooting here , but individuals do shoot the dicipline and compete both nationally and internationally so there is a large pool to get a national team from, whether those individuals would associate with MRC or not is another question .

civdef

Is it not better that at least some effort is made to have Irish representation internationally, than have everyone sitting around waiting for "someone" to organise things properly? If MRC hadn't made the effort to organise it this year, would anyone have represented the country at Bisley?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to argue that MRC did it by the book, but I can see how sometimes it's better to get stuff done by whatever mean necessary.

I'll wager the actions of MRC this year means there will be a proper representation next year...

Sparks

I wouldn't have thought it was justified though Civ. There was no reason not to send a team to Bisley under the MRC name. It's done all the time by other clubs like Rathdrum and Wilkinstown. But the Irish National Team, that's a different kettle of fish.

Again though, MRC were the ones who tried to step up and run an NGB when noone else was trying, but got stepped on by the NRPAI (interesting way to promote a sport, that). So I can see why there's confusion; but that doesn't mean that a team can be sent off like that. It's exactly the same thing as when the NRPAI sent off a national team to the Tirol Open - a private club (as opposed to an NGB) sending a team to represent the entire country just isn't on, no matter how well-intentioned or how successful.

disco kid

Is there anywere else to shoot 600 yds exsept mrc?

Sparks

As above disco.

disco kid

sorry is their anywere else to shoot 600yds in rep of ireland?. not the UK or english army bases . up north is the uk they shoot under the crown and shamrock is that ireland ? well maybe to sum of ya?

Sparks

The whole North/Republic thing is a bit fuzzy for Irish teams disco. With the olympic shooters, anyone in the North can declare for either the GB team or the IRL team for the olympics (and the N.Ireland team for the Commonwealth games) for a particular Games. Same as with the Rugby or Hockey teams. Given that F-Class, like ISSF, is governed by a set of rules not maintained by either the UK or the ROI, you'd imagine that the same spirit would apply to F-Class teams; in which case those ranges that shoot 600yds in the North would have to be considered also.

disco kid

the only 600yrd range in the northen ireland (uk) is bk and you need clearance to shoot their so you cant run a true open shoot their ? so how do you pick a
squad to shoot f-class ?.where else can you go? is there anywere in dublin ? what about kerry?

Sparks

Not sure if Kerry were shooting 600yds, and equally unsure if they still are.

Haven't they been running shoots in BK for years and years and years?

disco kid

ulster open every year?

Sparks

Thought so DK.

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

I wouldn't have thought it was justified though Civ. There was no reason not to send a team to Bisley under the MRC name. It's done all the time by other clubs like Rathdrum and Wilkinstown. But the Irish National Team, that's a different kettle of fish.

Yes, but I do recall one year in Bisley, where we had eight or more shooters from Rathdrum and DRC, and were asked if we wanted to enter a team in the international competition. By default we would have been entered as Ireland, even though we had not been mandated as such by the NTSA. In the event, we didn't enter. I can't remember the reason why, either not enough people, or interfering with other competitions we had entered.

Sparks

In a situation like that rrpc, had the offer been taken up, you'd have to equally blame the NSRA for making the offer and the team manager involved for accepting it - both parties ought to know that's not how it's done!

Think on it this way - if DURC sent a team off to a match and entered as a Rathdrum team without asking first, you'd be a bit taken aback, no?

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

In a situation like that rrpc, had the offer been taken up, you'd have to equally blame the NSRA for making the offer and the team manager involved for accepting it - both parties ought to know that's not how it's done!

Oh get off your high horse Sparks, before you fall off!. Yes I'd blame the NSRA for including us as Ireland, but none of us had any experience of that happening bar a senior member of the party who remembered just such ad hoc arrangements from the past. My point (obviously too obscure for you) was that this may have happened to MRC

Think on it this way - if DURC sent a team off to a match and entered as a Rathdrum team without asking first, you'd be a bit taken aback, no?

Funny that you should mention it, but certain member of Rathdrum was listed as DURC in the NTSA nationals....

(Prompts scurrying for the list of entries as he feverishly tries to work out who I'm talking about)

Sparks

It's not a high horse, rrpc, it's just knowing what the arrangements are meant to be - and I wasn't suggesting that the RRPC team was trying it on at the time!

(And that certain member of Rathdrum actually told me that he was miffed that he was entered as Rathdrum on the day and complained to the organisers as he was shooting as a DURC alumni for the Nationals... )

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

It's not a high horse, rrpc, it's just knowing what the arrangements are meant to be - and I wasn't suggesting that the RRPC team was trying it on at the time!

Hindsight is twenty-twenty vision, and you've ignored my point.. again!

(And that certain member of Rathdrum actually told me that he was miffed that he was entered as Rathdrum on the day and complained to the organisers as he was shooting as a DURC alumni for the Nationals... )

I am aware of that, I was just too tempted by your analogy not to miss the chance

Sparks

rrpc wrote:

Hindsight is twenty-twenty vision

Yup, which is why it's so important to review past efforts - only then do you see what you might do differently next time!

, and you've ignored my point.. again!

I've not ignored it, rrpc, but what would you suggest? That the NGB warn every club team going abroad not to accept such an offer? You know how that would be received!
The idea is that everyone should know exactly how the National Team is meant to be chosen; if they don't, well, time to ask why the NGB isn't putting that information out there...

I am aware of that, I was just too tempted by your analogy not to miss the chance

Git!

LB6

Thank God - smilie faces!

Thought it was going to be muskets at dawn!

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

Yup, which is why it's so important to review past efforts - only then do you see what you might do differently next time!

Still stuck on that high horse I see. Get a grip. I was talking about inexperineced shooters, abroad for maybe the second time, being asked to enter an international match. "Thanks for the invitation, We'll just go off and review the situation, consider past efforts, set up a sub committee to see if we're breaking any rules, contact the NTSA, NRPAI, ISSF, OCI and the minister for sport, get a copy of the last minutes and maybe have an EGM to discuss the formation of the team and possible selection criteria, then we'll give you your answer" or "How many do we have?, OK not enough, sorry about that but thanks for the invite anyway"

I've not ignored it, rrpc, but what would you suggest? That the NGB warn every club team going abroad not to accept such an offer? You know how that would be received!
The idea is that everyone should know exactly how the National Team is meant to be chosen; if they don't, well, time to ask why the NGB isn't putting that information out there...

That's the idea right enough, not always the reality though. It's one thing getting the "Team Ireland" teeshirts printed, quite another to be asked to enter a competition and find yourself called 'Ireland' on the results sheet. If you remember from your past visits to Bisley, everyone has their country of origin after their name. It's not such a big step for a team to be called Ireland because all the members come from there. And let's be quite frank about this, Northern Ireland have a team in the International match, how does that square with the Association?

Sparks

LB6 wrote:

Thank God - smilie faces!
Thought it was going to be muskets at dawn!

Doubtful LB6, I've known rrpc personally for a fair few years now.
It's far more likely to be anschutz's at a sensible hour

Sparks

rrpc wrote:

I was talking about inexperineced shooters, abroad for maybe the second time, being asked to enter an international match. "Thanks for the invitation, We'll just go off and review the situation, consider past efforts, set up a sub committee to see if we're breaking any rules, contact the NTSA, NRPAI, ISSF, OCI and the minister for sport, get a copy of the last minutes and maybe have an EGM to discuss the formation of the team and possible selection criteria, then we'll give you your answer" or "How many do we have?, OK not enough, sorry about that but thanks for the invite anyway"

Or, when the team was being put together by RRPC and DRC, their representatives on the .22 and/or air rifle subcommittes would have known the score with the National Squads; the NGB would have put the info out there on the website and in the rulebook as to how the National Squads and the National Team were set up; and that way anyone who ever shot enough to get to the level where they'd be off to Bisley, would know what the story was about the Irish Team!

That's the idea right enough, not always the reality though. It's one thing getting the "Team Ireland" teeshirts printed, quite another to be asked to enter a competition and find yourself called 'Ireland' on the results sheet.

This is very true!

If you remember from your past visits to Bisley, everyone has their country of origin after their name. It's not such a big step for a team to be called Ireland because all the members come from there.

Er, actually, in the British Open in Bisley, the Wilkinstown team was listed with Wilkinstown after their names and there wasn't any confusion (mind you, we were an easily recognised group as we were all in uniform at the time, that may have helped).

And let's be quite frank about this, Northern Ireland have a team in the International match, how does that square with the Association?

They don't - at least, not in an ISSF international match. They'll have a team in for a lot of other international NSRA matches though, right up to and including the Commonwealth, but in an ISSF international match they have to be either GB or IRL. They couldn't enter on their own, ISSF would require that either the NSRA or NTSA put them forward.

There is something now nagging at me though - you said they just walked up and asked you if you wanted to enter? But that's not how ISSF internationals are run - you have to send off entry forms, often a good while in advance, and the invitations are only sent to the Member Federations; are you sure it was an ISSF international, or just the NSRA lads running a match to ISSF standards and calling it an international?

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

Doubtful LB6, I've known rrpc personally for a fair few years now.
It's far more likely to be anschutz's at a sensible hour

22 tennis in Rathdrum, you name the day I'll bring the umpire

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

Or, when the team was being put together by RRPC and DRC, their representatives on the .22 and/or air rifle subcommittes would have known the score with the National Squads; the NGB would have put the info out there on the website and in the rulebook as to how the National Squads and the National Team were set up; and that way anyone who ever shot enough to get to the level where they'd be off to Bisley, would know what the story was about the Irish Team!

Ehhhh what?? Team??. We were there, we were asked on the day as far as I remember

Er, actually, in the British Open in Bisley, the Wilkinstown team was listed with Wilkinstown after their names and there wasn't any confusion (mind you, we were an easily recognised group as we were all in uniform at the time, that may have helped).

Because it was probably a club or county competition, where the country is not listed. Some of the Bisley week matches are listed like that as are the postal shoots.

They don't - at least, not in an ISSF international match. They'll have a team in for a lot of other international NSRA matches though, right up to and including the Commonwealth, but in an ISSF international match they have to be either GB or IRL. They couldn't enter on their own, ISSF would require that either the NSRA or NTSA put them forward.

AFAIK there are no ISSF matches during Bisley week, the one I'm referring to is the Home Countries International Matches (Prone, 3P, Womens etc.)

There is something now nagging at me though - you said they just walked up and asked you if you wanted to enter? But that's not how ISSF internationals are run - you have to send off entry forms, often a good while in advance, and the invitations are only sent to the Member Federations; are you sure it was an ISSF international, or just the NSRA lads running a match to ISSF standards and calling it an international?

I never said it was an ISSF international, you see?, jumping onto your high horse and missing the saddle, or did you end up facing the wrong way?

Sparks

rrpc wrote:

22 tennis in Rathdrum, you name the day I'll bring the umpire

Ah, a challange!

Sparks

rrpc wrote:

Ehhhh what?? Team??. We were there, we were asked on the day as far as I remember

Did you not go over as the Rathdrum Team?

Because it was probably a club or county competition, where the country is not listed. Some of the Bisley week matches are listed like that as are the postal shoots.

Club or county??? Oi you, it was the British Airgun Championships!
(You know, the air rifle version of Bisley Week!)

AFAIK there are no ISSF matches during Bisley week, the one I'm referring to is the Home Countries International Matches (Prone, 3P, Womens etc.)

Ah, that's a different story. But Ireland's not eligible to enter a team for that anyway, no more than we could enter the Commonwealth games!

I never said it was an ISSF international, you see?, jumping onto your high horse and missing the saddle, or did you end up facing the wrong way?

Hey! Just because I'm used to the word "International" meaning ISSF competition, doesn't mean I'm on a high horse - and anyway, you used the word in that way yourself only a day or so ago!

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

Did you not go over as the Rathdrum Team?

You are only the Rathdrum team if you enter a team competition, which we did not.

Club or county??? Oi you, it was the British Airgun Championships!
(You know, the air rifle version of Bisley Week!)

Exactly, open to club or county teams or individuals. Hence the absence of country designation. (unless otherwise stated, rates may change without notice, errors and omissions excepted, value of opinions may go up as well as down)

Ah, that's a different story. But Ireland's not eligible to enter a team for that anyway, no more than we could enter the Commonwealth games!

Oh yes we are...."shooting for honours only"

Hey! Just because I'm used to the word "International" meaning ISSF competition, doesn't mean I'm on a high horse - and anyway, you used the word in that way yourself only a day or so ago!

Within the context of the discussion. I initiated this subthread about an international match during Bisley week, which I thought you would have known has no ISSF matches, but you saw INTERNATIONAL and immediately hopped up on your equine quadraped and proceeded to berate me from a height about procedures and subcommittees and rulebooks!

rrpc

And the 22 tennis match challenge still stands.

Sparks

rrpc wrote:

And the 22 tennis match challenge still stands.

You are *so* on. Loser buys coffee afterwards
Not this sunday though, I'm booked

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

You are *so* on. Loser buys coffee afterwards
Not this sunday though, I'm booked

Not so cheaply as that Sparks, loser admits publicly on this board that they were wrong on the subject of minutes

Sparks

Naw rrpc, that's trial by combat, and if I'm doing that, there are three or four others in the queue ahead of you