Cross-religion marriage

Brian017

A Christian-atheist marriage. Yay or nay?

qz

Yay, obviously. If you're truly in love, what's stopping you?

And what do you think?

Brian017

Well I'm kinda in that situation myself. That's why I was asking you. I love her a lot. It feels, I dunno, wrong??? on my conscience. But I know if I don't go through with it, I'll probably end up regretting it.

Excelsior

Paul explicitly mentions such marriages. Check it.

If the Christian believes what they say they believe then they will want the atheist to enjoy the full life promised by Jesus. If the atheist really believes what they say they believe then they'll want the Christian to drop the damaging fantasy of a caring God.

Statistically, these marriages face an uphill task.

But these are all general points and without knowing the couple, who can say?

Brian017

Not what I wanted to hear.

Steven

Tbh, it's not like you're going to be awake all night trying to convert each other. The only potentially damaging scenario I can foresee is an argument over whether to bring your children up as catholics or atheists. It's a difficult thing to discuss before you're married but you should probably get it out of the way before you take the plunge.

(That's a yay, btw)

Brian017

We have discussed that. She says to let them decide when they're older. But when they go to school and start making their communion and confirmation etc... them unbaptised will provide a problem.

Steven

Baptising them doesn't mean they can't be atheists (speaking as a baptised atheist). Baptism means nothing to us so surely baptising them, when they're too young to know what the hell's going on, won't affect their choice later in life.

Excelsior

With all due respect Steven, you are not trying to offer any kind of impartial advice. You are merely expressing your opinions, which are from an atheistic position.

Baptism means nothing to you as an atheist. The Christian in this marriage however would know well and feel deeply the importance of baptism as a sign of what God has done for them.

The fact that you find it difficult to even understand why sprinkling water on a should baby count for anything shows up the very reason why an atheist-Christian marriage will face difficulties. I am sure they can work, but most don't.

For the Christian, the New Testament is clear that it advises against it.

Talliesin

Brian017 wrote:

But when they go to school and start making their communion and confirmation etc... them unbaptised will provide a problem.

Surely they'd only receive those sacraments after (whether of their own volition, or because you arrange it as their parent) the are baptised Christians.

Waiting until they are old enough to decide means waiting until then before communion and confirmation also.

Excelsior wrote:

With all due respect Steven, you are not trying to offer any kind of impartial advice. You are merely expressing your opinions, which are from an atheistic position.

Baptism means nothing to you as an atheist. The Christian in this marriage however would know well and feel deeply the importance of baptism as a sign of what God has done for them.

I think his point is that if the kid becomes an atheist in adult life they won't mind having been baptised. That doesn't necessarily follow though, some people who change religion from the one they were raised in object to having been brought through the rites of that religion by their parents, and some don't. So really Steven's point only follows if they not only become atheists, but become atheists of a similar disposition to himself.

Personally I object to people having taken it upon themselves to have made vows on my behalf, and reject the assumption behind that. Not object in a raving anti-Christian bitter way or anything, just something I'd rather hadn't happened.

Excelsior

I understand that Tallesin, since those vows are antiethical to your beliefs. Would you marry a born again bible thumper? (Yes, I am proposing to you? )

Dades

Brian017 wrote:

Well I'm kinda in that situation myself. That's why I was asking you. I love her a lot. It feels, I dunno, wrong??? on my conscience. But I know if I don't go through with it, I'll probably end up regretting it.

I thought this was a joke. Seriously.

Why the hell would a Christian/Atheist marriage not work any more than any mixed religion marriage? Or are all those marriages doomed also?

I married a good Catholic girl in June. Church wedding, Papal blessing - the whole shebang. As you might guess I am no longer of the RC persuasion. (Not through apathy or bitter experience, just a long-reached decision). Why go through the motions? So as not to spoil the day for the bride and both of our families.

Will there be little Atheists in the future? Personally I hope so, but the little critters can make up their own minds. I've no problem sending them to the same RC school I and my brothers went to, baptising them, communion, confirmation etc. Othewise they'll be alienated. When they reach the "question" stage I hope they'll have open enough minds to see there are alternatives, even if they don't accept them.

Of course the wife will be wary of me slipping Richard Dawkins or Carl Sagan into their schoolbags but that stuff should be read by everyone. And come Sundays - she knows that if somebody is taking the kids to mass - it won't be me.

To let something like your beliefs stand in the way of marrying the love of your life is pitiable IMO.

Excelsior

To have such a low view of beliefs is pitiable, IMO.

Dades

Excelsior wrote:

To have such a low view of beliefs is pitiable, IMO.

Please take these remarks in the context of the thread if you would.

I realise that people's beliefs are extremely important to them, but the particular "mix" in question seems to me to be harmless.

Obviously no-one should want to marry someone who ridicules or militantly opposes your beliefs, but this is not a scenario put forward by the OP. What the OP has asked is whether a partner who believes in one less God than you is fit for union with a Christian.

It is this notion I find distasteful. I didn't think Christians worked on a "them and us" basis.

I'm sure there are some religious combos that may be very hard to make work in practice, particularly those with stricter doctrines. But Atheism & Christianity? Unlike a mixed religion marriage there is no conflict of worship or ceremony. A conscientious atheist is no different in practise to a God-fearing Christian.

Is it simply a concern for the spiritual well-being of the next generation??

Tazzle

Here's my two cents.

If she's Catholic, you're fine, not really a problem there. Catholics in Ireland aren't exactly the most enlightened of people about their faith.
Now, if she happened to be more of a Baptist Christian, or Christian other than Catholic. There lies more of a problem. In my experience anyway.

bus77

Well, I was left out of religion from day one. My parents wernt proclaimed Atheists or Christians. My mother generally just found the spectacle of going to church bizzare. growing up in pure poverty but getting dressed up just to go to church every sunday. She also had a mistrust of the church. Not the priests, the congregation. A small town gal, wary of small town politics.

What was my Dads view on matters? I asked a question one day about religion, the only question I ever remember asking about it. "Where was the Bible found?" and the reply from my Dad was "In a cave". And that was his view on things. Or more to the point, lack of a view on things.

So when I was born, neither of them were in any sort of rush to get me baptised. So, I wasn't.

Ofcourse I went to a RC school with a church nearby.
I remember early on I was actually left in the classroom because the teachers did'nt really know what to do with me. Not that it botherd me, I was an 'only child', well used to my own company. But later on some sort of arrangement was worked out and I went up to the church with the others on holy days/confessions. But even that was see/saw. I never really knew what to be doing with myself in there. I took confession once to see what it was like, and the same with the Eucharist. Every now and again in school some kid would ask "Are you a Mormon?".

Later on as the big events started to come up, my mother found out it was possible to get a late baptism. I was actually willing to go for it but as was the way in my house with everything, it never happend.
But it is definitely possible to get a late baptism.

In my opinion, Christianity propper dosn't start off with Baptisims or Ten Commandments or anything near that. It starts off with a couple, expecting a child, trying to find a way to make it through life.
The pair of you sound like concerned but easygoing prospective parents in your own ways. You can't really ask for better than that, for any child.
I most likely would have been baptised when the choice was presented later on. But, I was happy I was given a choice. Things aren't really the same as they were when I was, or any of us were growing up. The countrys far more more multicultural than it used to be. And there will be probably be quite a few more left out of religion early on.

Talliesin

Excelsior wrote:

I understand that Tallesin, since those vows are antiethical to your beliefs.

Most of them are just irrelevant to my beliefs. Okay, there are some things which would be classified under "all his [Satan's] works" that I'm pretty happy with and wouldn't want to renounce, but that's getting into nit-picking because a for each one of them you could find a pretty devout Christian who would sincerely not consider the thing in question to be a sin.

It's more that the importance of vows themselves have within my beliefs (up until recently the worse thing you could call a witch was "oathbreaker" - these days you'll probably upset one more by calling them "fluffy", but that's a long story and not on-topic here) are such that I don't like the idea of anyone feeling they have a right to make any vow on my behalf.

Your misjudging the nature of my objection to having been baptised does say something to the OPs question in itself though. Ones religion affects a lot about ones outlook - ethically, cosmologically, metaphysically. As well as the big obvious issues (how should such a couple raise their children) and the small obvious issues (what's for dinner on Good Friday [at least the other person is atheist and will never be wanting to feast on the same day the other wants to fast, or vice versa]), there can be very subtle differences in outlook between the way people of different religions think about so many things in their lives.

Consider a mixed-religion couple where a difference in their religions causes some disagreement in how they should live their lives together, and then consider how much more difficult it could be to resolve if they are misinterpretting the reasons behind each others' position.

Excelsior wrote:

Would you marry a born again bible thumper?

Probably not. If nothing else if I score with a Pagan they're less likely to misinterpret the reason I have a dagger under my pillow

Being in the bedroom itself, or not is another issue. I really wouldn't marry someone I hadn't slept with, the Christian view on pre-marital sex would be a stumbling block. Not for the sake of the sex in itself but more differences in views of relationships that aren't so much part of the religion as based on differences in thinking that are informed by religion. It's not that we don't have any sexual ethics, but it's not surprising that a fertility religion has quite different sexual ethics to most branches of Christianity.

I wouldn't rule out a relationship with a Christian (I don't see myself getting married again soon, and well it won't be legally possible for a few years in any case) "bible thumper" implies a rather strongly evangelical position of such that they would spend a great deal of their time actively trying to convert me, so I don't think I'd be having that.

But no, I wouldn't rule out a marriage with a Christian, but it would be less likely to work than a marriage with a Wiccan or at least a Pagan of some sort.

(Not to mention the difficulties the Christian would have in entering into a matrimonia disparitas cultus and given my previous "natural and valid" marriage they would have to be from a denomination that allowed for divorce).

Excelsior wrote:

(Yes, I am proposing to you? )

Sweet, but I really don't think I'm your type

As for how this all relates to the OPs position. Well, I think mixed marriages are harder, but there's the saying that all marriages are mixed marriages, neither part of the couple are the same (there's another saying that all marriages are mixed marraiges - because there's a man and a woman, but whether that should be the case is a whole other kettle of controversies).

It'll be tough. It'll be made tougher by people that expect or even want it to fail (thinking of couples I know that broke up in the last year or so, there always seemed to be more surprise expressed when the couple weren't mixed). But it'll likely be tough anyway. On balance my advice would be to keep your eyes open to the pitfalls, but go for it.

Excelsior

That's a great post Talliesin. Can you gather together some articulate witches and teach us evangelicals how to express our opinion without stepping on people's toes? But I agree entirely with what you've said about the difficulty in meshing world views.

Through the tears of misery I sob at your turning down of my proposal (I hadn't checked with my wife yet so it is probably for the best) I would have to sum up my feedback to OP as: I don't know you or your situation nearly well enough to tell you anything useful. I would treat advice for such a major decision from strangers on the Internet with suspicion. Paul makes advice to the Christian in the relationship (don't know if it is you or your partner) that should have a lot of weight.

A crazy idea would be to go to the pastor for the Christian in the relationship- it might just work! They should know you and they should be able to offer you guidance based on their care and knowledge of your lives.

Talliesin

Excelsior wrote:

Can you gather together some articulate witches and teach us evangelicals how to express our opinion without stepping on people's toes?

"Don't evangelise" probably isn't the answer you're looking for there.

Excelsior wrote:

A crazy idea would be to go to the pastor for the Christian in the relationship- it might just work! They should know you and they should be able to offer you guidance based on their care and knowledge of your lives.

Agreed, if your religious community has ministers/elders/pastors/teachers bloody well make use of the support they offer.

OP, Has your partner been to church services with you? Does she understand what your religion is about and what it means to you? Do you understand what her atheism is about? - is it a position strongly opposed to the role religions have played in society or a mere shrug of the shoulders on the whole subject of the divine?

Asiaprod

Just to post an interesting example of mixed marriages.
I started life as a Catholic. I moved to Japan and became a Buddhist. I met my future wife who was a follower of the Japanese Shinto Religion, which is anti Buddhism. We got married had a child and my wife became a Buddhist. Her Mother follows another sect religion called Shingon, which is anti Buddhism and Shinto. and her Father has stayed sane and follows none.
There has never been any problems in our family. We each give each other lots of space and we do not try to ram our own beliefs down each others throats. Mixed marriages can and do work, but they are not for everyone.
Peter Kearney (Tokyo)